prog bounds (some thought involved!)

Punk rock and progressive rock can be thought as approximately two ends of a musical spectrum, with the scale being musical experience, and clearly bands/musicians stopping off at various points through their careers. Many move on to more advanced levels later, then some more back (hey there are band wagons to jump on, e.g. Stranglers, Police but some time later move on to more advanced stuff carrying their once less sophisticated audiences with them).

So much of the tirade against punk written here in PA  smacks of  not thinking  outside  the box - a box with parameters previously set by others not turning their brains on. Reading a lot of this stuff in PA if I didn't know better, i would be lead to believe by implication progressive rock musicians appeared fully fashioned, as marvellous near -virtuoso instrumentalists, with a broad range of musical appreciation and deep musical theory. Course not, every musician has to learn - some find it more difficult than  others : they go through levels of proficency. Clearly those self-trained musicians who formed professional bands with 3 or 4 chords, learn on the road, developed and refined their skills on the road - often known as paying one's dues - many get far better with time, some get dissatisfied with the constraints of 3 minute pop songs. I've just been listening to Tomorrow  with Steve Howe sounded reasonably proficient but some way away from the revelation of the playing heard when he first joined Yes - go further back (check Howe's Mothballs album) and the early roughness is not far removed from punk level of playing on early 60's songs equivalent to punk,  e.g. what might be called English garage.?

If you care to read through my Blog What Happened To You, you'll find that I argue that some archetypal punk musicians with developed skills over time moved on too. Listen to PIL's Compact Disc, or Big Audio Dynamite's  This Is BAD, and you'll discover in their ways former members of Sex Pistols and Clash respectively were progressing, exploring new territory - and how many words have been spilled in PA wrt to the Stranglers? Guys such as Joe Jackson and Elvis Costello, who were initially part of the late punk movement, demonstrate more obviously the progression to much more sophisticated music.


Edited by Dick Heath - May 10 2008 at 06:55

There are some very knowledgeable and passionately argued points all through this but like so many other threads on PA it all boils down to this:

No-one yet has been able to mint a watertight definition of 'prog'

It is not even established beyond any reasonable doubt  if this would actually turn out to be a desirable thing (any such agreed parameters we arrive at MUST be restrictive by definition and would simply perpetuate the inclusion/exclusion debate for eternity after many of the previous incumbents on PA are jettisoned) It should also be self evident that unforseen innovation that subsequently falls outside our hard wired definition by current long stay residents in PA would necessitate their expulsion ?.

I don't have the answers to any of this but would hazard that a dynamic and elastic definition is the best we can possibly aspire to.

Further to that, we cannot even decide if we should be attempting to define the term 'progressive' in it's semantic guise or its more problematic little brother 'prog' : the latter's casual use carries with it all manner of implied/inferred baggage that changes depending on the user.

I also think there are some gross simplifications as to the proferred definitions of 'punk' and the naive belief that any style of musical expression can have a consistent global identity. In the UK punk was a social and politically driven phenomenon (notwithstanding the greedy svengalis like McLaren and his ilk) while its slightly older sibling in the US was an artistic and aesthetic phenomenon. It is worth pointing out that Malcolm McLaren took all his ideas for punk FROM the USA after a lengthy visit there circa 75 where during his stay he offered to manage but was turned down flat by the NY band 'Television.'

For what it's worth:

I agree that a separate genre for Italian prog is spurious

A new genre of 'Prog Punk' reeks of Reductio ad absurdum eg a vegetarian lion

the original 'orbiting constellations of musical styles' as posited by the original poster is a very good one (although I admit that most it was way over my head) but does rely on 'gravity' and there is way too much of that round these parts to be healthy.