prog bounds (some thought involved!)
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Blogs
Forum Description: Blogs, Editorials, Original articles posted by members
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47126
Printed Date: November 23 2024 at 22:37
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Topic: prog bounds (some thought involved!)
Posted By: laplace
Subject: prog bounds (some thought involved!)
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 17:29
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Boundaries change in retrospect, allowing us to redefine past bands as
"prog". It's just as well we do, because other nebulous clusters like
"indie" and "rock" do just the same and they have a little more
support. Still, as much as they do good, free work, I don't think the
progarchives staff have given equal time to other styles of music with
the potential to impinge on progressive rock. It might be that the word
rock itself is stigmatic, here, but now's the time that almost anything
can be defined as such. Let's indulge in a little exercise... Imagine all bands mapped as stars in a circular system. As sane heliocentrists we place King Crimson, Soft Machine, Yes et all right in the very centre. From there you may spread out in different directions clusters of bands related to genres like hard rock (where we can plot every other Englishman and Scot who wore their hair long in the '70s), techno, jazz, batcave and everything else that ever was, closer to the centre based on your reckoning of their relation to our genre - if you find blues more commonly allied with prog than disco is, then draw blues a short distance north and disco on the southern outskirts of the galaxy. Once you've mentally assigned as much music as you can, trace an estimated border around the bands listed on progarchives (consigning those further adrift to a sort of musical Oort cloud) - is the shape of your border more akin to a ring, a diamond or a lens? More plainly, has equal or inequal attention been given to these differing types of music? I've drawn a lens - at its points we have metal and the avant-garde, while at its deepest curves we have electronics and post-punk. Notably this lens includes outliers like Slapp Happy and bands such as Kamelot while excluding Autechre and DNA. Muse are admitted but Sun City Girls shunned. Miles and Herbie are also omitted... Does this just reflect that some genre teams are more active than others? I know that the RIO threads rarely stop moving and are always filled with thoughtful suggestions - perhaps this, and the fact that there's such a wide range of avant-garde music to choose from means this well will never run dry. As for the metal side, well, how can I put this delicately? Metal is very structured, powerful music, having few changeable parts - often, there isn't as much notable difference between the vanilla and the progressive in heavy music as there can be found between, say, Genesis and a more primitive rock band. As these teams are as active as the genres they represent, could they be doing the right thing but overshadowing music from prog genres we could call relics of past eras such as the largely defunct Canterbury scene? Whereas on a site populated by many fans of bygone prog and hard rock, electronica and punk-influenced music is a *really* hard sell. We don't have teams for these as such; electronic prog personnel tend to busy themselves with textural, droning, psychedelic music - good work is being done, but electronic music's a goldmine and we aren't mining every vein. Now, Cardiacs and the Mars Volta *are* on progarchives, and more than a few punk-influenced post/math rock bands are present too, so if there was such thing as a prog-punk team it would have slightly more credibility because of these inclusions. Allowing in artists we all know are experimental and different like The Bad Seeds or Bjork would increase the site's standing within a greater audience - the same reason we archive bands such as Sabbath and Maiden. If you've played along with this rather vague mental exercise and humoured the rant, let me know what shape you have drawn, and which heavenly bodies orbit its extremities! ----- (if you want to have an argument about this post, don't do it here, because I'm not trying to start a fight; message me or respond on the copy of this article on my blog instead.) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Replies:
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 17:48
Lappy, I'll readily admit I haven't read your post properly, and now it is a bit late for me to answer in a coherent way (I'd hate to lose credibility for good ). However, you do make some very good points, with which I find myself in agreement. Though you know me as a hard rock/heavy metal fan, I hope you also know I am open to exploring virtually anything in music. Therefore, I share your point of view that the addition policy is definitely more biased in one sense. Bands or artists that have no recognisable ties with 'traditional' prog are shunned, even if they are objectively much more progressive than many of those who are added. I have noticed that there is a definite bias against bands associated with 'new wave' (whatever that may mean) - which made the addition of Japan highly controversial, and makes people foam at the mouth at the very mention of Talking Heads. More coming tomorrow... Almost time for bed here!  |
Posted By: ES335
Date Posted: March 15 2008 at 23:18
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My (mental) picture is a vortex. You mentioned one band in orbit. The Grateful Dead and Yoko Ono are two heavenly bodies also in orbit. More on why tomorrow. It isn't as late here as it is in Italy, where it's early now, but it's late enough. ------------- Bible-thumping heavyweight evangelistic boxing kangaroo |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 07:44
 Excellent analogy Laplace, though I think that searching the Oort Cloud may be to vague an undertaking, after all, the only objects that cross the planetary plane from there are comets that shine briefly then depart (Prog Related perhaps). We should be looking for bands closer to "home": Kuiper Belt objects if you prefer, (like Pluto, Sedna and Quaoar) - one example of which that immediately springs to mind would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_the_Fire - After The Fire - a band that 99.9% of people would associate with 80s new-wave synth-pop (of hits such as One Rule for You and Der Kommissar), but who began life as a post-Genesis (Neo)Symphonic band in the late 70s.
------------- What? |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 18:29
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The "Kuiper Belt" was actually what I was thinking of when I wrote that part. o:) I do hope that people will make an effort to respond. =) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 19:56
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wow.... I agree!!!! I got a kind of line, mainly staying in psyche influenced rock and hard rock, with a few (seemingly) random outskirts in other genres. seems like alot of electronica, hip-hop, indie, alternative, punk, funk etc. could be added (of course only the intelligent parts of each genre) ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 20:36
Really some bands/genres are being forgotten here. Daft Punk, for example, goes proggy on their 2 last albuns (dyscovery and humand after all), spacially on discovery (a electronic music opera about a alien band being kidnapped by a earthling businessman to make a f*load of money). However i disagree in making a "prog-punk" genre. How paradoxical will that be?   Punk emerged to be the exact opposite of progressive rock: prog rock main characteristic is its musical complexity and punk's main characteristic is its straightforward kind of music, with no kind of musical development whatsoever or with extremely low development.However, some musical genres where influenced by punk, like thrash metal, death metal and black metal, and theren these genres where influenced by prog or the musicians simply grew musically, making more complex/well written music (like Death's front man Chuck Schuldiner), creating progressive black/death metal bands and prog related bands with thrash (like metallica, for instance).  In the prog black/death metal case, the punk influence is so far away that the only thing that resemble it is the guitars speed (grindcore, crossover, etc) and vocals (also grindcore, crossover, bla bla bla), but that is controversial and the progressive elements (musical complexity, technicality, brand use of different instruments, etc) outshines the punk elements by far.  In the thrash side it is a bit more complicated, since thrash is still very close to punk and the only thing that i can imagine that can differ both is musical complexity (here, as well as in all times i used musical complexity I mean not only that the music is hard to play, that too, but not necessarily, i also meant development of the musical lines, creativity in its development, creating different musical themes and "cores", etc), like in metallica's ". . . and justice for all" and "master of puppets" albums  Another thing, some genres listed in this site are indeed VERY, VERY limited in both space and time (like the Canterbury scene and the krautrock, to me the TRUE kraut comes from Germany and Germany alone) some in space ( the Italian symphonic prog [ i really think that there is no need of making a exclusive genre for Italy, but i dont run this site so, well] and the zehul, limited almost exclusivelly to France and Japan ) and some in time (the whole metal sub genres and the post rock/math rock), making it difficult to add different/new bands to the ones that are already listed. There must be, however, something still to uncover, but i really don't know.  One last thing: the criteria to add bands to the site has confused me several time too. To me, iron maiden is not prog, nor black sabbath. They do make good music and in some cases share some features with prog but, lets face it, most bands, when they reach their top, have some kind of prog influence, and here i don't mean that they sound like prog or whatever, i only meand tha they got something proggy going on, anything and that, to me, should not be the reason to add bands here. Or you can add and make prog related metal/pop/folk/whatever, but that is just one more thing that i cant decide, since i dont run the site  The only thing that is left is to do is to win the freaking loto and spend the rest of your life listening to prog and cataloging it  -------------   
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 16 2008 at 20:41
i think that to characterize the intelligent part of each genre you putted there as proggy is the theme of another forum room  |
Proletariat wrote:Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: March 18 2008 at 07:10
Never heard of Pronk? Give the Cardiacs a try. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 18 2008 at 17:03
Ok Shakespeare, ill explain to you how i cannot conceive progressive punk. The world is made of opposites, which are the exact opposite of each other (a and non-a) and fight to destroy each other and, at the same time, are dependent of each other to exist, like the positive need the negative to exist and light needs the darkness to exist. This theory is called dialectic, and was conceived by the Greek philosopher Socrates (if i am not mistaken) and used during most of the western civilization as it was, but during the the XVII and XIX centuries it was "reborn" by Hegel's philosophy, its followers and Marx. Their theories are far too extensive and far to hard to be shorten in such a small space, but, according to the historical materialism, this dialectic always happened and forever will in every level of the society, culture and system of beliefs (if you wish to know more, try reading Marx and TRY Hegel; i mean TRY Hegel because its theories are far to complex and obscure, being hard even to philosophers to really understand him). Knowing this, lets go to the facts: progressive music emerged during the XIX and the XX centuries due to musical conformity and homogeneity, basically. Same thing happened when progressive rock emerged, and it very fast became a mass culture thing (just see the top 10 list of the 70's: the top sellers where almost all prog or prog related and the repercussion of prog rock in popular culture: pink floyd's dark side of the moon and Mike Oldfield's tubular bells). However, prog rock had some problems: 1st a lot of bands with the exact same sound (just see how many yes-like / genesis-like / pink floyd-like / etc-like bands where); 2nd too many poor "prog" bands, like journey, styx, starcastle, etc made market get saturated with low quality "prog" 3rd some bands had a kind of music simply too avant-garde / complex / difficult to be listen, what, in the end, pushed away many people from prog 4th the change of the focus of the general culture on the late 70's, demanding some kind of music that where more "straight to the point" and spoke the language of the of the musically uneducated population (i don't mean here that people that listen to prog is "better" that everybody else, just that, to listen to some kinds of music you need to have some education, like classical music, progressive music, rock, etc, and on early punk that education was not needed, just like you don't need any kind of education to listen to 50 cent    Because of that, prog rock slowly died a horrible and painful death into the 80's, to "reborn" only on the early 90's, but not as strong as it was, just like happened to punk and just like will happen to metal, etc. Conclusion: because of being the main actor on the fall of prog and its awful music, i think that punk has nothing to do with progressive rock as both were opposites of a dialectic relation during the 70's (the prog and the non-prog[punk]). PS: before you guys crucify me, i must say that prog rock never really, REALLY died, but that is a unique characteristic of our post-modern society: to keep "defeated" actors of the dialectic process alive, but that life is nothing more than an artificial life supported by the unnatural demand of the people that participated of that movement. This is nothing more than a shallow and short explanation to the process that we live today on our post-modern world to keep things that we like "alive" artificially, just like a person that where on a coma and woke up: that person is alive, but will never be as strong, as intelligent nor as eager as it was before the coma (usually! every rule have its exception!). Admin edit: fixed an error in the quote. -------------
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Posted By: Sckxyss
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 00:56
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^ The prog rock movement may have been the opposite to that of the punk movement, but as far as style goes, there is no rule that states which styles cannot be fused. If you need some evidence, listen to the Cardiacs, early Mars Volta, or even the avant-garde influenced post punk bands such as This Heat or Pere Ubu. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 20 2008 at 13:20
Some things: the punk MUSIC and not the punk MOVEMENT is what i was referring myself to, since the punk movement was, in its origin (ramones, and sex pistols), something to make MONEY (hell, the ramone guitarist invented the way they dressed and played, well, the way they played was influenced by the rolling stones, i mean, play like you cant care less about what you are doing, but anyway, to make MONEY and the sex pistols were assembled by Malcolm McLaren, a sex shop owner, to promote the clothing he was selling, so he assembled them to make, well, MONEY), although it became slowly more complex. According to Wikipedia, "The Sex Pistols emerged as a response to what was perceived to be the' increasingly safe and bloated' progressive rock and manufactured pop music of the mid-1970s." However, and i must agree with you here, there are no boundaries to musical influence but, in the case of Mars Volta, i think that it is only some kind of straightforward or direct prog. The other bands you listed here i do not know but i think that they fall in the same categories of progressive death and black metal, and here i will quote myself:
Here i meant to say that for "pronk" the punk is still here, but the prog outshines it by far. Besides, if that sub-genre (pronk and post punk) were so important in prog rock they would probably be listed here, since the owners of the site already gave themselves the trouble to list a especial sub-genre to Italian prog (to me, EXTREMELY unnecessary, but o well, Italy DOES have a large amount of prog production during the 70's, like Germany, France, UK. . . .), as well as experimental/ post metal (some of bands listed in this sub-genre are just the crossover of some prog rock genres with metal, like happens with orphaned land, which is NOT experimental NOR post metal, the band is progressive folk metal and should not be there, but i think that this sub-genre here needs only better guidelines and better explanation), heavy prog (that is indeed a good creation of the directors of the website, one of the few that i support since bands like Rush and Uriah Heep were some kind of "progressive hard rock"  ) and technical/extreme progressive metal (this sub-genre needs to be better explained and have better guidelines, but its a great 1st step, since is undeniable that extreme metal is increasingly fusing itself with progressive rock).-------------
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 20:18
there's more to discuss here than the prog-punk relationship, but...
this is my primary issue; that equal time isn't given to all varieties of music. Although punk started out as a direct attack on social values and dawdling prog (and don't straw man this very relevant genre by associating it purely with The Sex Pistols - they rode the wave but obscured a lot of *real* energy as they did) its influence almost immediately suffused our genre as evidenced by zillions of avant-bands starting from around '78, ie, POST PUNK, the term I largely used in ze first post. just generally nothing can remain the direct antithesis of something else in a field like music where everything changes so quickly and borders are redefined - my first sentence said that much. --- beyond this, let's continue to talk about what we feel to be under or over-represented on the archives, in a thoughtful way. =) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 21:07
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I guess I'm one of few who think the musical areas covered on PA are just about right.. well-balanced, open-minded but reasonably conservative ...musics such as Punk/Postpunk, Noise, Industrial, Minimalism and Experimental are represented here in, as laplace mentioned, many different ways (most recently Mathrock) |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 21:36
Sorry to keep citing the sex pistols, its just that they are very important to the Brazilian punk scene, so i though it was also important elsewhere (for example the ratos de porão, the most well known Brazilian punk/crossover/hardcore/thrash, vocalist and front man João Gordo [Fat John in english] has stated many times that sex pistols were the most important band in punk rock ever). But anyway, i cant see how GG Allin, the clash and green day and the ramones influenced progressive rock in other way else then alternative rock and extreme metal.
and i must agree here with Atavachron, since on the math rock/ alternative rock are meny bands who were deeply influenced by punk, since alternative rock is a direct punk (*sigh*) son. However what i think Laplace means in the 1st place is that some genre are better represented, and they are! Some genres like Symphonic prog, space rock, RIO/Avant-garde prog, progressive metal and extreme prog metal are indeed better represented than other sub-genres, like the indo/raga prog (possibly the most limited genre here) and the post rock/math rock. For that are many reasons like i sayd before and here i will quote myself:
However there are another reasons, like the downfall of traditional rock and the rising of metal, since there are much more metal bands out there than rock bands, and the rebirth of prog as prog metal, which will probably be remembered, in 10 to 15 years, with the same warmth that symphonic prog was and will probably stand side to side with symphonic prog as the most important sub-genres in prog rock, what is almost visible today: just take a look in how many progressive metal bands there are in this site! -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 21:38
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Besides, i left a hint for the progressive electronic team i my 1st post. FOR GOD SAKE FOLKS FROM PROGRESSIVE ELECTRONIC TEAM, JUST TAKE A LOOK IN DAFT PUNK'S DISCOVERY AND HUMAN AFTER ALL ALBUMS! -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 21:52
but understand how hard certain of us fought to have Mathrock even acknowledged as a legitimate entity.. Post/Mathrock not well-represented? I think not... some of these new genres will continue growing as will interest in them and it is a continuous effort to understand and properly archive them, you can't just say "OK, now we have a Raga or Postrock category that is as big and comprehensive as Symph" It requires dedication and, mostly, work to give all areas their due ..it also has to be the right time and the material must be available so it can be properly documented ...someone has to do it, and they have to do it well |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 22:11
all i meant is to say that math rock/post rock is not as big as some other sub-genres of prog rock, and with a reason: a sub-genre as new as that one and so "underground" takes a lot of trouble to be uncovered (they ain't underground for nothin' ).However, these genres don't have such a appeal as progressive metal have and most of that appeal i will grant to Dream Theater drummer Mike Portnoy and his filming neurosis: he documents everything that Dream Theater does and passes on to the fans, he is always giving interviews (as well as the rest of Dream Theater, except for John Myung ), constantly make world tours and each 2 years releases a brand new studio album. I bet that if a post rock/math rock band did like Dream Theater does they will attract a lot of attention to the genre.-------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 22:15
perhaps, or maybe many more people do and always will prefer melodic, cleaner music over the abrasive and sticky miasma of Mathrock |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 21 2008 at 22:19
there are much more downers than you think dude: why does gothic, doom, sludge doom, depressive metal and funeral doom exists? hell, i listened to doom metal and i almost wanted to kill myself! the atmosphere is so depressive that i almost lost my reason to live. AND IT WAS ONLY DOOM!!!!!! JUST IMAGINE SLUDGE DOOM, FUNERAL DOOM AND DEPRESSIVE METAL FOR GOD SAKE!!!!!!! and there are many MANY doom bands around, just take a look : http://www.metal-archives.com/ (go on bands by genre and they click on doom) -------------
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: March 22 2008 at 01:35
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Doom metal is incredible. I'm on a huge hunt for more funeral doom right now, actually... Anyway, I think it's near impossible to catalog "progressive music" because we don't really have a concrete definition of progressive and just about all music is progressive in one way or another. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: March 22 2008 at 04:49
try Inner City Unit (featuring Nik Turner of Hawkwind); they were progressive punk too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdEW6tg2zg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdEW6tg2zg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwCwcskLv2E - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwCwcskLv2E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0qofsXXS90&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0qofsXXS90&feature=related (great video, by the way lol) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCRH7_nTVIk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCRH7_nTVIk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO4ZjKNcutE&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO4ZjKNcutE&feature=related Admin edit: fixed quoting errors. -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: March 22 2008 at 04:56
but we do have a concrete definition of non-progressive.. that is, traditional and much classic rock and the modern artists that still play that kind of music-- many artists do not progress or play progressive music.. nor do they desire to, especially traditionalists |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: March 22 2008 at 08:31
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(watch out with funeral doom - I was on a huge kick for that music about two years ago, and I found that most releases are, um, bedroom metal, often with ill-disguised midi parts. very few releases strike a balance between TOO lo-fi even for someone like me who doesn't care about production, and too slick to menace.)
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 22 2008 at 22:22
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we do, however, have some bands here in progarchives that where doom, like anathema. they where experimental doom on their early days and now they do some kind of prog-related modern rock
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 05:20
No screaming in the blog section - all caps are impolite. Maybe you should PM one of the electronics team members or post the band in Suggest new bands. Those ways are more effective than this - you can't expect the team members to monitor every thread on the forum for suggestions, especially if they are as busy a you mentioned yourself. Now carry on.... ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 05:23
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laplace, this is a very interesting view on things, as I told you earlier. I haven't gotten around to drawing my 'cloud', but hopefully Easter will allow me to do just that. Great discussion as well - I will stay out of it until my cloud is done though. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 15:29
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Laplace, some boundaries of progressive rock/metal are indeed not clear. Going back some post here, when i was talking about the dialectic process of development of the world, you can see why: music had always two tendencies, to be complex and to be simple. For this to be better understood, lets go back a few decades before the conception of progressive rock, but still on the trail of rock (here we can really go back to the birth of music itself, when mankind tried to reproduce the singing of the birds and used logs, rocks and everything else that was in it's reach to make some sound, but ill wont do that, because that would be useless to the explanation and would demand more research that this post needs), when jazzy big bands played endless nights on the 40's to the youngsters. During the 50's, rock music was born from the "black's" tones (blues and jazz) and translated to the hateful and racist white America as a "white" music, made by white musicians being everything "white and clean" (a period of rock that i hate because of the hypocrisy and the prejudice of other kind of music just because they were made by "blacks"; that really get my nerves ). Anyway, here we can witness the 1st process of the complex music (jazz) loosing its space on the simpler music ( early rock and roll). after that we had a log period of simple music (almost all 50's and early 60's) and then, by the 2nd half of the 60's we see the mainstream music slowly getting more complex until we hit the jackpot with prog rock .From the late 70's on we see another process, more abrupt and furious than the previous, that the complex music is substituted by the simpler music (mainstream media people! don't crucify me here). After the shock cause by punk and its fierce opposition to it all, on the early 80's comes a process that makes music complex again just as abrupt and furious as punk made music simple; here we have the New Wave of British Heavy Metal bands. OK, knowing that metal is USUALLY (every rule have its exception, and metal we got a lot of exceptions on this case) a complex kind of music, just like progressive rock, and , with the mix of both genres at the late 80's and early 90's, creating progressive metal, we got a genre of extremely complex music. Well, you may be thinking here: WHAT THE HELL THIS HAVE TO DO WITH BOUNDARIES OF PROGRESSIVE ROCK / METAL? And i would say: calm down i am getting there !Since we don't have a definition of what is exactly prog and what is exactly metal, we usually guide ourselves with some general characteristics of the genre (here genres) and here the main characteristic to identify what is prog metal and what is not are 2: to see the complexity/technicality of the music, but that alone is not essential, since we got technical heavy metal bands also and how close they sound to traditional bands / how well their music progresses, how well the music is developed. Since man is not a cold heartless machine, much of its judgment, no matter how impartial it may be, will always be guided by his beliefs and culture. If the people who choses which progressive metal band enters the web site and which does not, well, this is a problem that can never be solved and will only depend of who is in charge at the time being.  -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 15:32
since you are a moderator/unsigned bands guy, can you do that for me Angelo? -------------
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 15:55
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He he, Caio, you sure know how to manipulate people. However, I urge you to take care of this one yourself, if I had to fill in every request that I get similar to this one, I would not be able to moderate any more - or is that what your after?
------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 23 2008 at 16:02
teh he, i don't know if i am either flattered or ashamed Angelo.  However, can you pinpoint me the direction i should take and how i should do it? -------------
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: March 25 2008 at 22:16
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I brought them up to the Electronic Prog team for you and they said flat out "no way." Sorry. -------------   |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: March 25 2008 at 22:33
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what the? maybe i should take this matter with my own hands  -------------
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 22:11
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Laplace, i have been thinking about these lens you mentioned, but i found the job too frustratingly endless, since i could not trace a clear line between anything. However, i found a better way to do this: trace lines and then include bands. I have Came to 8 different ones: 1° Essentially progressive bands (RIO / Avant Garde) 2° Traditional / Milestones of progressive rock (Yes, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Tangerine Dreams, Jethro Tull, etc) 3° Progressive bands (bands that reproduce traditional progressive bands today and neo-prog bands) 4° Highly influenced by prog (Dream Theater, Supertramp, Rush, Death, Opeth, Phideaux, etc) 5° Bands that were prog in some moment / bands that influenced prog 6° Bands that have some prog characteristic 7° Bands that remember prog 8° Bands that are not prog  PS: i had drawn a circle, but i could not upload it. -------------
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Posted By: Pnoom!
Date Posted: May 02 2008 at 22:21
| Err... Daft Punk, as awesome as they are, are in no way prog. Not even remotely. |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 19:51
well, i disagree. I think that Daft Punk could be put in the level 6 or 7 of my classification, because i DO think that they had some kind of prog characteristic on Discovery, but i had come to the conclusion that that is something completely subjective and that i can't explain. Its just a feeling, a hint. -------------
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:17
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its kind of silly to say that there isn't a Progressive nature in Punk music.... that would seem to come from someone who knows very little about the subject, I'll even say that Punk in its infancy started out with a restless spirit that didn't adhere to the norms, Pere Ubu, Television, Chrome, The Screamers, very different Punk bands there were creating something fresh and new, and like someone mentioned did we forget about all the great Post Punk bands? like Cabaret Voltaire, Wire, PiL, Family Fodder, Swell Maps etc....sure it isn't Progressive Rock, but experimental and pushing boundaries? of course...then you have your passage through Hardcore with key bands like Black Flag and the Minutemen all the way through the fusion of Metal and Hardcore which you get so many bands that are now here listed inthe Archives today, then again perhaps Ive missed the point on whats being discussed entirely here, but if you ever need any help on bands from thePunk/Hardcore world that might seem appropriate on the archives I'd be glad to lend my 2 cents, for all thats worth, |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:21
Daft Punk is a band and not some kind of Punk sub-genre. Guess we were not very clear sorry if the thread misguided man -------------
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:28
Precisely, Mithrandir. those bands are exactly the type I have in mind when I mention post-punk in conjunction in prog. A lot of people say punk killed progressive rock but knowing a lot of the avant-garde bands that grew from punk it's more accurate to say it *assimilated* it, and between post-punk and RIO we can see where the experimental spirit jumped to (away from the symphonic and spacey rock genres that did so well up until then)... ignore CCVP o:) I don't have great hopes of seeing this site acquire a prog-punk team but I'm glad there's another person who agrees that it's deserved. anyone who pays attention to that era understands that James Chance & The Contortions belong here and their place would be just as valid as those in other late-starting genres, IE, Neo, Post-rock and Post-metal. (my 5,000th post, yay) ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:30
damn, i feel so lonely now . . . -------------
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Posted By: mithrandir
Date Posted: May 03 2008 at 22:41
yeah, I see, you guys move sort of fast I got confused there! one thing that could also be said is the line needs to be drawn somewhere as far as what bands you induct into the Archives, while there's plenty of hardcore and punk bands that can be considered progressive and experimental in their own right, they're still a pretty distant throw from the likes of ELP and Yes, you might as well just call it The History of Any Band That Did Anything Special Archives! I know Im being silly but you get my point, , but if there is any chance of the Punk side of the equation being considered I'd be enthused about it! although you gotta think of something better to call it than Pronk! haha! |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 06:54
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Punk rock and progressive rock can be thought as approximately two ends of a musical spectrum, with the scale being musical experience, and clearly bands/musicians stopping off at various points through their careers. Many move on to more advanced levels later, then some more back (hey there are band wagons to jump on, e.g. Stranglers, Police but some time later move on to more advanced stuff carrying their once less sophisticated audiences with them). So much of the tirade against punk written here in PA smacks of not thinking outside the box - a box with parameters previously set by others not turning their brains on. Reading a lot of this stuff in PA if I didn't know better, i would be lead to believe by implication progressive rock musicians appeared fully fashioned, as marvellous near -virtuoso instrumentalists, with a broad range of musical appreciation and deep musical theory. Course not, every musician has to learn - some find it more difficult than others : they go through levels of proficency. Clearly those self-trained musicians who formed professional bands with 3 or 4 chords, learn on the road, developed and refined their skills on the road - often known as paying one's dues - many get far better with time, some get dissatisfied with the constraints of 3 minute pop songs. I've just been listening to Tomorrow with Steve Howe sounded reasonably proficient but some way away from the revelation of the playing heard when he first joined Yes - go further back (check Howe's Mothballs album) and the early roughness is not far removed from punk level of playing on early 60's songs equivalent to punk, e.g. what might be called English garage.? If you care to read through my Blog What Happened To You, you'll find that I argue that some archetypal punk musicians with developed skills over time moved on too. Listen to PIL's Compact Disc, or Big Audio Dynamite's This Is BAD, and you'll discover in their ways former members of Sex Pistols and Clash respectively were progressing, exploring new territory - and how many words have been spilled in PA wrt to the Stranglers? Guys such as Joe Jackson and Elvis Costello, who were initially part of the late punk movement, demonstrate more obviously the progression to much more sophisticated music. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: May 10 2008 at 11:31
Not that it is worth one iota but I agree totally with you two chaps. I really couldn't give two figs which bands get on this site or not (meant in a gentle way, I know everyone is doing a fine job adding bands, and, if say, The Human League or Cabaret Voltaire or Chrome found there way on here I have some 5 stars lying around) but the way I call it is that there are too few people on here with any knowledge of post-punk, industrial (not the Nine Inch Nails/Skinny Puppy/Front 242 version), No-wave, new-wave, avant-garde, electro-acoustic et al.
Fair enough, most members probably don't care either. I use this site mainly to get information about fields I am clueless about anyway. And, oh f**k yeah, I have found some f**king gems! So thanks chaps ------------- 
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 08 2008 at 12:20
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There are some very knowledgeable and passionately argued points all through this but like so many other threads on PA it all boils down to this: No-one yet has been able to mint a watertight definition of 'prog' It is not even established beyond any reasonable doubt if this would actually turn out to be a desirable thing (any such agreed parameters we arrive at MUST be restrictive by definition and would simply perpetuate the inclusion/exclusion debate for eternity after many of the previous incumbents on PA are jettisoned) It should also be self evident that unforseen innovation that subsequently falls outside our hard wired definition by current long stay residents in PA would necessitate their expulsion ?. I don't have the answers to any of this but would hazard that a dynamic and elastic definition is the best we can possibly aspire to. Further to that, we cannot even decide if we should be attempting to define the term 'progressive' in it's semantic guise or its more problematic little brother 'prog' : the latter's casual use carries with it all manner of implied/inferred baggage that changes depending on the user. I also think there are some gross simplifications as to the proferred definitions of 'punk' and the naive belief that any style of musical expression can have a consistent global identity. In the UK punk was a social and politically driven phenomenon (notwithstanding the greedy svengalis like McLaren and his ilk) while its slightly older sibling in the US was an artistic and aesthetic phenomenon. It is worth pointing out that Malcolm McLaren took all his ideas for punk FROM the USA after a lengthy visit there circa 75 where during his stay he offered to manage but was turned down flat by the NY band 'Television.' For what it's worth: I agree that a separate genre for Italian prog is spurious A new genre of 'Prog Punk' reeks of Reductio ad absurdum eg a vegetarian lion the original 'orbiting constellations of musical styles' as posited by the original poster is a very good one (although I admit that most it was way over my head) but does rely on 'gravity' and there is way too much of that round these parts to be healthy. ------------- 
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