Don't knock the (punk) rock!

Punk was never meant to exist commercially though... if you look at the original punk scene beyond fake, mainstream bands like The Sex Pistols (who in my opinion were the first step towards the aforementioned soulless pop-punk bands) and The Ramones, bands like Crass, Conflict, Rudimentary Peni and Flux of Pink Indians were devoted to speaking out against big record labels and companies and actually trying to help trigger social and political change through their music.  The spirit of punk will never die, as long as there are people who are frustrated with the world around them (for whatever reason they may have, political or otherwise) and want to express it through music regardless of whether they themselves are gifted musicians, THAT is what punk is.  Sure the original punk "movement" being refered to in the quotes you mention is over, but so is the original prog movement, that doesn't make it a dead genre.  Granted a lot of new punk has branched out and may not sound exactly like the bands responsible for originally getting the scene going, but evolving into new forms is a natural thing for a genre of music to do after an extended period of time.  Sure if you listen to a band like Spazz or Municipal Waste it doesn't sound very much like The Sex Pistols, but if anything outside of that template is immediately disqualified from being "punk" then I would honestly say that I prefer the new, fake "psuedo-punk" to the genre's "real" bands.  At the very least hardcore has to be acknwoledged as still being an active genre, and that is most definitely a subgenre of punk, so it's undeniable that to an extent punk does live on.


Edited by Bryan - September 21 2007 at 18:08

i dun think punk did kill off prog...but i know emo pop has killed punk

Bryan wrote: Punk was never meant to exist commercially though... Debrewguy steps in - Yeah, after LPs from the MC5, the Stooges and other punk bands (and yes, they were punks, but the "scene" just hadn't been named yet), the labels couldn't see that why their lacklustre marketing efforts had any negative effect on consigning them to semi-obscurity despite the fans they drew to their shows. if you look at the original punk scene beyond fake, mainstream bands like The Sex Pistols (who in my opinion were the first step towards the aforementioned soulless pop-punk bands - DB ???? I'm wondering what album you actually listened to, or worse, what chemicals you were on, "that dastardly Johnny Rotten, getting knifed in an alley 'cause he dissed the Queen, what a marketing scheme, eh") and The Ramones, bands like Crass, Conflict, Rudimentary Peni and Flux of Pink Indians were devoted to speaking out against big record labels and companies and actually trying to help trigger social and political change through their music. Db tosses the firecracker in the ring - Lyrical topic matter is never an indication of any musician's importance. You can sing all the serious things you want. Political screeds do not instantly make for poetry or art. And speaking against the "man", well please see the MC5's history. And as far as trying to trigger social & political change through their music, that  is a nice theory. The reality is that society pushes these changes when the mainstream sees or believes the change is necessary or right. The Vietnam war was not halted by the hippies & all those 60s anti-war folkies ; it was the middle class , the parents who got sick of seeing their kids come back in body bags for no reason that made sense to them. Don't believe me, then go through rock's history & compare to world or national affairs. I'll be surprised if the musicians' topic matter made any difference to societal change. Change comes about by community activism, voting, organizing political pressure groups. But most of all, getting people who believe the same things as you to vote, at the local, regional national whatever level, OK !  The spirit of punk will never die, as long as there are people who are frustrated with the world around them (for whatever reason they may have, political or otherwise) and want to express it through music regardless of whether they themselves are gifted musicians, THAT is what punk is. DB harrumphs - the spirit of punk died the second that it became a scene. Ask John Lydon. It started as being about being yourself, being original; then it quickly became about the uniform , the look, the attitude. Wanting to express one's frustrations with the world is not something reserved for punk. Never has been, never will be. Punk, nowadays is a neat moniker that a label, manager, or even a band can attach to themselves & their music to identify themselves to a receptive audience.  Sure the original punk "movement" being refered to in the quotes you mention is over, but so is the original prog movement, that doesn't make it a dead genre.  Granted a lot of new punk has branched out and may not sound exactly like the bands responsible for originally getting the scene going, but evolving into new forms is a natural thing for a genre of music to do after an extended period of time.  Sure if you listen to a band like Spazz or Municipal Waste it doesn't sound very much like The Sex Pistols, but if anything outside of that template is immediately disqualified from being "punk" then I would honestly say that I prefer the new, fake "psuedo-punk" to the genre's "real" bands.  At the very least hardcore has to be acknwoledged as still being an active genre, and that is most definitely a subgenre of punk, so it's undeniable that to an extent punk does live on.

DB answers - any "genre" that is more than a few minutes old will start to multiply in subsects in no time. That is the nature of music. The musician builds upon what he has heard. Sometimes to write sing & play the same old same old, sometimes to improve & add to the existing body of musical works, & rarely, very rarely to come up with a new type or style of music that has not really existed before. And as for arguing about what is, isn't was or wasn't real pop/punk/prog is just a fun way to while away the time. Are Green Day punk ? Mr Lydon believes not. But then he's compared the Ramones to Status Quo, the Clash to a good rock group, & the New York scene to a self-loving scene with romantic delusions of fanciful pseudo-poetic musings that they considered artsy enough to make them "important". And by now, any one just retreading the old ( and it is old) anti-anything lyrics isn't automatically to be credited with the "serious music" tag.
The young "punkers" that I respect are those throwing certain uncomfortable truths into the faces of their fanbase - that they themselves have major things that they should change, or that they should quit their whinings especially when compared to the lives that others live in more demanding situations than most of the middle class poseurs have the luck to be born into. But telling your audience to get off their ass & do something about their own hypocrisies doesn't sell too well, now does it. Remeber straight edge ? Now that was a challenge to your audience. Remember Fugazi refusing to sign up with the Majors, or playing all age gigs only. That was a principled stance. But many punk bands' anti-commercial stance is just a cover 'cause they know they aren't going to get the Stadium tours & platinum albums, so they might as well play up their underdog status. And frankly, it no more of way to judge the musical merits than the 80s Hair metal bands' decadent lifestyles. Who cares ? Angus Young drinks tea & smokes cigarettes. That's all. Does that make him a poofster ? Sid Vicious killed himself on heroin. Does that make him a cultural icon ? Cobain shot himself saying he couldn't take the celebrity.
Beethoven, the Clash, the Beatles, Minor Threat, you name it; any group or artist whose music is still held in high regard is because there is something in it that carries it beyond the scene or the charts of the moment. Not because of some high-falutin' "I know better than them" words hurled at spitting speed.
So until you leave your teenage years, enjoy your illusion that music is "serious" art that has cultural impact. Then read about how Fashion supposedly does, too. Then realize that your favourite tunes still hold that special place in your heart 'cause they touched you in some way. And not because they were more Punk or Prog than group x or y.




Edited by debrewguy - September 27 2007 at 13:26

Bryan wrote: I'm not saying that punk is somehow a more serious or more meaningful means of expression than other genres, or that somehow all punk bands are 100% true to their messages (hell I'm a black metal fan, the concept of saying something just for the sake of getting a reaction is definitely not foreign to me).  I just find it a little strange to claim that a genre idealogically based around going against "the system" is dead because "the system" has created some half-assed offshoot of it to sell more records (pop-punk and emo) and started to ignore the real thing.

Good clarification. Any corporation worth its' salt will find a way to exploit any commercial opportunity that it sees. I just find that saying this band is better because they "mean" it, or that that group sucks 'cause they're poseurs amounts to judging the music based on its' perceived style over the actual content.
I wouldn't care at all if it turned out that my favourite albums (Highway to Hell, Interview, Pure Pop for Now People, Abbey Road, Hemispheres ...etc ...) were expressly conceived , written,played & produced to sell as many copies as could be sold. Any more than I would change my mind about records or CDs that I cannot stand to listen to  just because the band made it out of the most pure high minded artistic considerations. It really is what's in the grooves. Or as is the case today, what's in the 1 & 0 (digital codes).
The overwhelming regurgitation of pop punk bands repeating ad nauseum the same chords, spit, snot, whiny lyrics or angry anti-something screeds shouldn't discourage a music fan from being able to find good pop punk groups. Just because you have 100 bands imitating Green Day, or a thousand new neo prog groups going over the same ground covered by Genesis 3 decades ago does not mean that Green Day or Genesis are suddenly unlistenable. You do stumble on a few that find their own way.