Don't knock the (punk) rock!

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Topic: Don't knock the (punk) rock!

Posted By: A B Negative
Subject: Don't knock the (punk) rock!
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 06:34

I'm fed up with the theory that punk killed prog, and the idea that you have to spend years in training before you can make enjoyable music is ludicrous to me.

I'm a fan of many types of music and two of my favourites are prog and punk. As punk seems to be unfairly maligned by many on this site, I decided to set up this thread for like-minded fans of both punk and prog to discuss our anarchic side!

I love Sex Pistols, Damned, Ruts, Stiff Little Fingers, Exploited, Crass, the list goes on and on.

Sometimes I want to listen to all of Tales from Topographic Oceans, sometimes I'd rather batter the bejayzus out of my guitar along with the Ramones. What about you?

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Replies:

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 07:19

Punk has its place in the musical pantheon, but for me it is a very narrow genre with a small core of tru-punk bands that flared briefly and died and a whole echelon of imitators that have hung on to the image of punk without instilling the idealism and ethos that created it (such as The Misfits, NOFX, and the Johnny-come-latelies like the Offspring and Green Day). Personally I could care less for them, but I do like the more intelligent (i.e. those who did spend years learning their craft) post-punk and new wave bands that followed (Siouxsie, Toyah, XTC, Magazine, Television, The Cure, etc.)

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What?

Posted By: Yukorin
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 07:22

Totally agree. The two aren't mutually exclusive to love. Got tons and tons of punk/new-wave sevens and LPs. The creativity back then knocks me senseless.

Would love to post The Anti-Nowhere League's lyrics to 'So What'. But I won't

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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 16:41

I listen to a fair share of old 90's Emo these days, which is a subgenre of Hardcore which is a subgenre of Punk. So I like quite a bit of Punk actually. As for more widely known stuff, I have Television's Marquee Moon and I like it a lot. Is there anything more by Television worth getting?

Posted By: spo1977
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 20:51

I enjoy the Damned, Machine Gun, Black Album, Strawberries. Their earlier punk albums are ok, but sort of 1 dimensional.

I like NWOBHM, not punk, but simple rock.

Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 22:08

I respect all music (except gangsta rap), but punk is low on my standards, cause after you've heard one song, you have heard all of punk! Like dean said, It's very narrow, with three chord verse chorus verse songs and twenty nine minuete long albums. Dont deny with that sentence I summed up 75% of punk.

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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 22:15

But the punks LIKE it when we knock them around -- it helps them feel persecuted....

Everybody SLAM DANCE!

"All the kids wanna have somethin to do / All the kids wanna sniff some glue..."

I can diggit.

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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: September 03 2007 at 22:27

their are some prog bands with a little punk in them recently I was listening to Twelfth Night and I can hear some anti establishment sentiments in them, also correct me if I`'m wrong but "Script For a Jester's Tear" (Garden Party , Forgotten Sons) has a certain anti establishment charm about it too. If Punk can get past the regular format they tend to use and expand into new territories I`m sure lots of prog heads would be interested.

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 04:25

Philéas wrote:

I have Television's Marquee Moon and I like it a lot. Is there anything more by Television worth getting?

Although I haven't heard it, live album The Blow Up is highly rated.

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 04:27

schizoid_man77 wrote:

I respect all music (except gangsta rap), but punk is low on my standards, cause after you've heard one song, you have heard all of punk! Like dean said, It's very narrow, with three chord verse chorus verse songs and twenty nine minuete long albums. Dont deny with that sentence I summed up 75% of punk.

Most classic punk uses 4 chords...

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 04:32

A B Negative wrote:

Philéas wrote:

I have Television's Marquee Moon and I like it a lot. Is there anything more by Television worth getting?

Although I haven't heard it, live album The Blow Up is highly rated.

The follow-up to Marquee Moon was Adventure - a bit more polished, but somehow not as vibrant.

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What?

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 04:35

Yorkie X wrote:

their are some prog bands with a little punk in them recently I was listening to Twelfth Night and I can hear some anti establishment sentiments in them, also correct me if I`'m wrong but "Script For a Jester's Tear" (Garden Party , Forgotten Sons) has a certain anti establishment charm about it too. If Punk can get past the regular format they tend to use and expand into new territories I`m sure lots of prog heads would be interested.

Haven't heard Twelfth Night but the attitude of early Marillion is one of the things I like about them.

As for expanding into new territorries, try The Damned. Curtain Call takes up the whole of side 3 of The Black Album. (What? A punk band made a double album with a track that takes up a whole side?!?!?)

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 06:07

I think Marillion, and the neo prog movement in general, was probably prog's response to punk in some ways. Most of the bands are more direct; Fish's lyrics are certainly easier to make sense of than Jon Anderson's!! The bands also tended to take some inspiration from the punk bands; see the amount of singles Marillion willingly released compared to their predecessors (I think singles were often looked down upon by most prog/heavy rock acts of the 70s, or taken to be something of a necessary evil) and some of the bands released albums/singles on independent labels rather than major labels.

I don't tend to be much of a punk fan as a rule, but I don't hate it either. What's more, some fine bands came out of that period; The Police, Talking Heads, XTC, The Stranglers, Public Image Ltd., The Damned, Magazine and The Jam were making excellent music in the late 70s/ 80s that was a million miles away from punk which I find to be rather a dead-end, musically speaking, however much the critics claim otherwise. The best bands evolved; the likes of Sham 69 (who actually released a concept album, unbelievably!!), UK Subs and that Captain Oi! movement lot did not. AFAIK, they are still knocking out the same old sort of stuff now!

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 06:22

I've seen the UK Subs a couple of times in the last few years. You're right, Salmacis, they are still knocking out the same old sort of stuff now. It's what the ageing punks want to hear, much like wanting Genesis to get back with Gabriel and Hackett and relive the glory days of the 70s.

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: Guzzman
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 11:01

I wonder why nobody mentioned The Clash. They were a punk outfit but on London Calling and Sandinista they experimented with other genres like reggae, jazz or rockabilly and the result I find absolutely and truly amazing!

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"We've got to get in to get out"

Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 11:36

"Punk's not dead. It only smells like it's dead" (unknown author).

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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

Posted By: darren
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 11:59

I know my biggest disappointment in this forum is that I thought prog fans would be more open minded about all forms of music. Some seem to think that if you like any nonprog rock that it somehow diminishes your intellect.

... that is right if you take a superficail view.

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"they locked up a man who wanted to rule the world.
the fools
they locked up the wrong man."
- Leonard Cohen

Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 12:20

The condemning of other genres does exist amongst some prog fans, unfortunately. But I can't help but think the treatment punk gets here is due to the bad press prog gets as a result of punk's positive press. Punk is generally not a genre I choose to listen to on a regular basis, either, but as I said, some good music came out of it.

I've never actually liked The Clash much, for whatever reason. They are one of those 'big' bands I've never managed to get into at all (Guns 'N' Roses is another). Don't hate them either though and they were another of those bands that definitely transcended punk (whereas a lot of Guns 'N' Roses' output makes me cringe in horror).

I used to have a few UK Subs albums on vinyl (when I used to hoard all sorts of stuff) and, to me, every track sounded the same, without the diversity that most of the better bands of this era excelled in. But of course, they have their fans.

Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 12:59

My favorite are Minutemen. ONe of the few punk bands who could play their instruments well, almost jazz-punk.

D. Boon is the man.

Posted By: Mellow Candle
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 13:07

I love Misfits with Danzig.

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Waiting for someone or something to show me the way...

Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 15:15

I find post-punk much more interesting than the original movement. Bands like Wire, Television, The Birthday Party etc. were all superb, although it's not something I listen to too often.

I agree with the original post though, there's certainly too much closed-mindedness and prejudice towards certain genres around here. Prog and punk are not that far away from each other, most RIO/Avant-garde bands are aesthetically closer to experimental post-punk than to any other prog sub-genre imo, but I suppose this is something that most people fail to grasp. I'd like to think that bands such as Mr. Bungle, Hella, Massacre etc. wouldn't have existed without punk.

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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: September 04 2007 at 22:17

Jimbo, I do understand in some weird kind of way that prog and punk are actually very simalar BECAUSE they are opposites!

Long songs/short songs

Complex music/ very simple music

Spacey far minded lyrics/ straight forward lyrics

The only thing they have in common is that they are both dogged by the media and are now underground. But I simply cannot get into the sloppy playing and "lets have sex all the time" lyrics. I respect it, but you will find me listening to nirvana before the sex pistols.

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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 01:01

darqdean wrote:

A B Negative wrote:

Philéas wrote:

I have Television's Marquee Moon and I like it a lot. Is there anything more by Television worth getting?

Although I haven't heard it, live album The Blow Up is highly rated.

The follow-up to Marquee Moon was Adventure - a bit more polished, but somehow not as vibrant.

Agree -- sophomore effort Adventure was not nearly as memorable.

Tom Verlaine's self-titled solo debut was better, and quiteTelevision-esque. (Some of the same musicians.) Among others, the longest track Breakin' In My Heart is essential listening for the Television fan. (Similar to the epic Marquee Moon.)

Television reformed briefly in the 90s, BTW (I saw the concert -- absolutely TERRIFFIC!), and this worthy album resulted:

Finally, any true fan of Verlaine and Television MUST have this one (easily my preferred of his solo works). None other than a certain Mr. Peter Gabriel cites it as one of his favourite albums:

The title is "Flash Light" -- a KILLER disc!

-------------
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 01:55

It's funny when you read Punk is malignized in a Prog place, please take your time and visit any Punk site, they waste pages of pages not in open forums but in their main sites insulting Prog and boasting about how they destroyed the dinosaurs.

Here once in a while a read a lot of people talking about how much they like Punk, others even talking about Prog Punk, but you won't ever see that in a Punk site, there you will just read insults, and that's OK for us and if they are happy, it's OK for them.

I like a lot of POP, others like Jazz, some will like Punk, but some of us simply can't stand Punk, and that's also OK IMHO, I don't understand what is so closed minded and pretentious in knowing what we like and what we don't like....Or is it a condition for being considered open minded to like every single genre?.

I believe Prog and Punk are the opposite extremes of the musical universe, you may like both, it's your taste, but trying to say Prog is remotely related with them is not accurate IMO.

Iván

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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 04:51

^Yes, that does exist too. Some punk musicians have commented on how notoriously narrow-minded a certain contingent of punk followers are, where if a song goes over a certain length they won't listen to it. I do think though that the music journalists tend to be more guilty of this than the musicians or fans, though.

But in all fairness, I've seen similar things happen here and other forums, where shorter songs are sometimes dismissed in favour of longer ones. Prog and punk aren't so very dissimilar after all!!

Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 06:26

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Iván

I understand what you're saying, but the problem is that usually when someone knocks the punk genre here, they often haven't got a clue as to what they're talking about. If you've given the genre a fair try, and noticed that this is not for me, then it's absolutely OK to even detest punk, but most people tend to base their opinions on stereotypes and aren't even willing to try.

I have no doubt in my mind that this is also true for most punk fans when they knock our beloved genre, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse.

Open-mindedness doesn't have anything to do with liking every single genre, it has everything to do with being honest enough to give every genre a chance. Smile

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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 06:49

... I like Cardiacs and eX-Girl. can we all meet on the border? ;P

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FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL

Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 07:22

schizoid_man77 wrote:

Jimbo, I do understand in some weird kind of way that prog and punk are actually very simalar BECAUSE they are opposites!

Long songs/short songs

Complex music/ very simple music

Spacey far minded lyrics/ straight forward lyrics

Watch these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5I2vEcVC_I - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5I2vEcVC_I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bMC8DloyJU - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bMC8DloyJU

Both are generally seen as (post-) punk bands. Smile

Not all punk is based on mind-numbingly simple songs and "let's have sex all the time" lyrics.

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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 10:04

Actually, I've never heard many punk songs with sex-related lyrics; it's a topic that seldom crops up in the genre, in my experience. There's all that dumb stuff like Blink 182 etc. but I imagine most punk fans detest that sort of thing anyway as much as we probably do here.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 14:04

Jimbo wrote:

I understand what you're saying, but the problem is that usually when someone knocks the punk genre here, they often haven't got a clue as to what they're talking about. If you've given the genre a fair try, and noticed that this is not for me, then it's absolutely OK to even detest punk, but most people tend to base their opinions on stereotypes and aren't even willing to try.

Well, I agree, there's people that talks about bands they never heard, even Prog, I just seen a post saying STYX is pure POP, surely that person has not heard the debut album, STYX II or The Serpent is Rising.

A lot of times people say "Hey Kansas is AOR and shouldn't be here" but later they admit they haven't heard anything except Dust in the Wind, so they base themselves in what they heard other people as little informed as them have previously said.

About two weeks ago, we had a reunion in a house of of a Pink Floyd fan to pass DVD's in order to get familiar with Prog bands, I showed them Device Voice Drum by Kansas and 7 out of 8 (I am the eight) were surprised, they thought Kansas was something like Boston, but when they saw Icarus and specially Miracles Out of Nowhere, they just were not able to believe, 4 of them bought the DVD in the next 48 hours.

Some people have told me how can I like Can Utility and the Coastliners much more than Suppers Ready if the second one is a long epic and the other one barely passes the 5 minutes, it's absurd to rate a song based exclusively in it's lenght or complexity, simply you like it or not.

Get used to it, people talks without ever haven't heard anything.

I have no doubt in my mind that this is also true for most punk fans when they knock our beloved genre, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse.

No, of course not, you can remember when about two years ago Karny and other members made a blitzkrieg writing Punk was crap in the Punk77 Forum, we all condemned that, because there is no reason to attack anybody else for what they do in their forum, and if they do something wrong, we shouldn't copy them.

Open-mindedness doesn't have anything to do with liking every single genre, it has everything to do with being honest enough to give every genre a chance. Smile

I understand your position, it's cioherent, but lately when you say tou don't like Punk or Rap or hip Hop, there's always perople saying you are an arrogant close minded because you don't gave Rap a chance (for example).

Every person is a different universe, I don't even believe that a person who likes only Prog is close minded, it's just his/her personal taste neither a person who likes everything is necesarilly open minded, sometimes he is, others just don't have a defined taste.

Iván

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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 14:25

salmacis wrote:

^Yes, that does exist too. Some punk musicians have commented on how notoriously narrow-minded a certain contingent of punk followers are, where if a song goes over a certain length they won't listen to it. I do think though that the music journalists tend to be more guilty of this than the musicians or fans, though.

But in all fairness, I've seen similar things happen here and other forums, where shorter songs are sometimes dismissed in favour of longer ones. Prog and punk aren't so very dissimilar after all!!

I think musicians are in general much more open-minded than most of their fans. As to music journalists, they are very often the ones who create and foster false myths, such as punk musicians' hatred of prog, or the other way around. Remember that John Lydon's infamous "I hate Pink Floyd" T-shirt was nothing but a clever marketing ploy (The Great Rock'n'Roll Swindle, anyone?), and that later he admitted to being into VDGG and King Crimson. Anyway, in my humble opinion, many of the historic "punk" bands were really something else from a musical point of view - or, at the very least, their punk stage didn't last long at all (see The Clash, The Stranglers, Siouxsie and the Banshees, and others).

Nowadays, people like The Mars Volta are showing that you can have punk influences in prog, and that they are not at all detrimental.... Personally, I've never been into punk, but I like quite a few new wave bands. I also think that open-mindedness is a must for anyone who really loves music.

Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 15:02

As I mentioned in another thread, I have a few good hardcore punk friends who are just crazy about Ozrics, Gong and Hawkwind. One is also a Gryphon, Circulus and Enid fan. These guys are true punks, who have not only wore the mohicans and bondage gear but also lived the lifestyle for the last 25 years, are some of the most musically broad minded people I know. They never dismiss my tastes and I return the favour. OK, they'd never be caught dead listening to ELP, but you'd be amazed if you were to casually browse through their collections, at just how many prog credible bands you might find.

My own favourite Punk band is Conflict. Their "Ungovernable Force" album makes the hair stand up on my arms.

Here's a Conflict lyric about the Punk movement.

A PISS IN THE OCEAN

Punk played it's own important role in the fight against oppression
Aired awareness, new opinions, destroyed formerly accepted obsessions
Right out the window went stale traditions, false morals blinded hope
Respect for authority joined them; we made them a standing joke
We said, "f**k off" smarmy popstar sh*ts portraying images of a perfect world
Smearing a happy, clean face on reality, "it's the Queens Jubilee…" go to hell
Refusing to be puppets with the promise of a future, there is no future
So never mind the bollocks, because anarchy in the UK suits us
The public screamed in outcry, demanded immediate termination
The "scum of the earth" has raised its voice "How could they do this to our nation?"
The media tried to destroy us, stop the 'poor mans' rock invasion
The exposure only helped us reveal their hopeless situation

Gaining in momentum and numbers, we needed spokesmen
And that came from four people from the real world, just like the rest of us
We now had a voice, an alternative, our message getting louder
Nothing now could stop us rising up to meet their fast advancing challenge
But when the challenge came, they crumbled, as the four proved easy prey
For the states clever weapon money proved too tempting once again
Big b*****d business cheque books opened up and then swallowed
Those leeches sucked hard slyly, and we couldn't believe the scenes that followed

Punk shops - " roll up! Buy your rebellion here!"
Badges, posters, bondage, books, colouring for your hair
Like sheep they flocked to buy punk rock, a part of the new threat!
The country laughed and screamed "punk flop"; it now seemed punk was dead!

They toured the lands to Disneyland We stood and could only watch
And ripped the state apart As they took everything we stood for
Destroyed the music status quo And made a mockery of it
And created a new start The four feeding finance straight back
Their jet set pads, the sunny land Into the system they supposedly despised
The songs of train robbings What was once the black flag of anarchy
It's just all more money in the bank Was now the colours of the Union Jack
So come on boys and girls and sing

The movement, punk rock, who cares? We are just another band; they were just another band
Direct action is what achieves change, not miming to words, how much longer must we sing the same old song?
Crawling from the mess that they'd left standing as our future
We realised we needed 'no one' to mouth off our message for us
Told big business to take a running jump, went back underground where we started
The tribe then split, as some stayed behind to mourn

(1986)

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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.

Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 15:30

To me, one of the most "punk" band out there is the Velvet Underground, and theyt are one of my favourite bands of all time... but then again, i don't lile ELP or Genesis, so i guess you can all disregard my opinion :)

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'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..'

Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 15:55

I don't knock punk because it killed prog or anything like that, the only reason I ever knock it is because I think the music blows. Not talking about post-punk, prog crossovers or music with a punk influence, there's plenty of it that I like; such as The Mars Volta is in my top three bands ever and they are punky at times. However plain old punk like Sex Pistols, Ramones, etc as well as modern hardcore and pop punk is *in my humble opinion* complete talentless crap, I just don't enjoy it, along with gangsta rap(and I do like some hip hop) it's a genre I just don't like.

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http://www.last.fm/user/ocellatedgod" rel="nofollow - last.fm

Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 16:41

One of the reasons why there is some reticence and even animosity towards Punk is that many people cannot see past the "Punk killed Prog" myth - and a myth it is - one created by Malcolm MacLaren and John Lydon as a publicity stunt to promote THE SEX PISTOLS and leapt on by lazy journalists then perpetrated erroneously ever since by Punks and Proggers alike. To paraphrase Mark Twain, The rumours of Prog's death have been greatly exaggerated.

The Punk Rock of 1976/7 is not the same as the Punk Rock from 1983 onwards - they are practically different genres – there is no relationship or comparison – they may ape the style but it is a mere pastiche. Let’s be honest here - any band formed after 1983 had no impact on the decline of Progressive music – they are more a symptom of the original movements’ ethos rather than its true descendant and by that virtue have more in common with Neo-Prog so should, by all rights, be called Neo Punk.

The narrowness of the (Punk) genre I was referring to in my previous post was not towards the simplicity music, (though I do not deny that it is often an inherent trait) but in the ideology that created it. Punk music was born of nihilism and anarchy, boredom, frustration and anger. The problem there is that success is self-defeating: you cannot kick against the establishment if you are the establishment, you cannot fight the system if you are a part of the system - and that is where the original Punk Rock floundered - they couldn't be angry all the time – as I said, they flared briefly and died.

The second Punk myth, that any bunch of talentless no-hopers could form a band and make it big was soon burst. The bulk of those bands (those that really did not have an ounce of talent or originality) soon lost all enthusiasm once they were not snapped-up for mega-bucks deals like THE SEX PISTOLS had been. The only winners were the Pawn shops who sold them the beaten-up guitars that they could not be bothered to learn to play. (I admit, going back to Alan’s original post, it is fun to thrash out a punk riff now and then, but I’d also add it is even more satisfying creating something a little more intricate even if I have no hope of ever jamming along to a DREAM THEATER CD)

Only a few bands stayed loyal to the cause, (CRASS held out until 1984, however their ideology was more diverse and political than most punk bands), but by 1978 the majority of the original Punk bands were gone, dried empty husks washed up on the beach of time, their life-force spent and exhausted. The rest mutated and evolved, bands like THE DAMMED, THE STRANGLERS and THE CLASH drew influences from other genres and actually progressed, creating concept albums and 17 minute epics, others moved into other genres, some created new genres all of their own, (a few of which we now consolidate as Post Rock and Advant Prog), and others, (such as BAUHAUS, SIOUXSIE & THE BANSHEES, THE MISFITS, THE CURE etc.) who inspired Gothic Rock and hence Gothic Metal, themselves indirectly influenced Prog Metal.

Truth be told, all music is influenced by everything that came before it – Prog influenced Punk by omission, and in turn, Punk has left its mark on Prog.

Now, Ska-punk … that’s a whole different kettle of fish and one worthy of (my) derision.

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What?

Posted By: Greg W
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 16:52

Ultimately punk is about image and attitude while prog is about music. Enough said.

Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: September 05 2007 at 23:58

Greg W wrote:

Ultimately punk is about image and attitude while prog is about music. Enough said.

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Nothing can last
there are no second chances.
Never give a day away.
Always live for today.

Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 06 2007 at 00:04

I don't think that's totally true.

Punk is also about communal experience (ever try to mosh to Yes (except the CTTE verse

)) and having fun. I'm not saying prog isn't fun (it is), but being in an audience watching a keyboardist solo for minutes on end is not something I automatically want to do (I'm not that big a fan of standing and not moving around in some way at a concert as it is).

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http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: September 06 2007 at 04:05

martinprog77 wrote:

Greg W wrote:

Ultimately punk is about image and attitude while prog is about music. Enough said.

To badly paraphrase Rush: if you choose not to have an image, you have still chosen an image!

Seriously though, punk has an image which many may find off-putting and can overshadow the music.

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: September 06 2007 at 12:08

Sorry, but I can't agree that punk is all about attitude and image . Sure, the pop punk that filled the charts (Jilted John, the Buzzcocks etc.) were pretty much image based, but people, I get the impression that your knowledge of the punk movement is fairly slim. It's no greater than a punk who, having heard his dad's copy of DSOTM, thinks he knows enough about prog to hold an opinion. Real Punk is perhaps 10% "attitude and image" and 90% ideology. The real Punks I know are serious animal rights activists, or squat empty properties that have been bought by immoral capitalists as investments and deliberately kept empty for years while people go homeless, or take to the streets to fight fascists at neo-nazi rallies, supporting persecuted social groups such as Gays or Jews. Roger Waters may have put on a "the Wall" show in Berlin a year after the event, but Punks were railing against it with direct action long before. Really, I don't know how many punks you know, but when I think "Punk", the last thing on my mind is an image conscious Greenday fan with a skateboard under his arm.

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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.

Posted By: Greg W
Date Posted: September 06 2007 at 15:38

Oh, I lleft one thing out. Punk is also about fashion. We can't forget that.

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: September 07 2007 at 03:50

Prog is also about fashion (see previous post where I mangle a Rush quote).

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: September 07 2007 at 04:05

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: September 07 2007 at 04:07

Seyo wrote:

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

Someone killed Nancy, don't think it was Sid though!

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 07 2007 at 14:21

A B Negative wrote:

Prog is also about fashion (see previous post where I mangle a Rush quote).

I strongly disagree with the atatement that Prog is a fashion for several reasons:

Fashions last little, Prog is probably the longer lasting Rock Genre in history, most of the early movements were dead by the 80's except Rhythm & Blues, Prog is lasting 4 decades and growing. You don't see a 40 years guy listening Grease (Theyp probably hide their first copy in embarrassment), but you find a lot of 50 years guys buying The Lamb or Relayer because they lost or broke their third copy of the album.
Fashions tend to sell a lot and are extremely profitable, we know that's not the case of Prog.
Normally fashions are identified with a determined age group with clothes that match to express their identity, Prog has fans from all ages and there's never been a particular style or fashion identified with Prog, at the beginning they used Hippie clothing because this movement refused to die, iut then there's not a particular or distinctive external sign for a Progger, just look at the bands, they dress as they want, and the fans go from school kids wearing what they want to Proffesionals wearing suits and hard working employees wearing uniforms.
Fashion genres sell a lot in the first months and then decrease to almost 0 in an average lapse of six moths, if you check the Prog market behaviour is exactly the opposite, they don't sell particulary better in the first months than in the next 5 or 10 years. Genesis played their magnum opus in half empthy theaters, but they achieved their first Gold Certificate in 1991 or 1992 (not sure), this means they kept selling an average during 16 years (If not they wouldn't have been considered by the RIAA), Jethro Tull until a few years ago had a media audience of 15,000 fans per show, not great but enough to live, they were never N° 1 in the charts (Except when they were wrongly classified as Metal by the Grammy Awards) neither ever made a poor show, they kept the same average since 1969 to 2003 at least.,
Fashion genres have a language, look at Psyche and check any Austin Powers movie, I know it's a joke, but the liguistic quotes are very accurate, or Rap and the violent language, Punk and their revolutionary hate discourse, etc. Yo can't tell a Proghead by his way of speaking, normally is the average Joe, I have friends who still in their 40's live to surf, stereotypical nerds, Middle Class Proffesional and white collar employes as well as factory workers, all with their distinctive language according to other considerations.

So Prog is anything except a fashion.

My 2 cents.

Iván

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Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: September 08 2007 at 00:01

darren wrote:

... that is right if you take a superficail view.

Superficial is one word you could say about that...

emdiar wrote:

Sorry, but I can't agree that punk is all about attitude and image . Sure, the pop punk that filled the charts (Jilted John, the Buzzcocks etc.) were pretty much image based, but people, I get the impression that your knowledge of the punk movement is fairly slim. It's no greater than a punk who, having heard his dad's copy of DSOTM, thinks he knows enough about prog to hold an opinion. Real Punk is perhaps 10% "attitude and image" and 90% ideology. The real Punks I know are serious animal rights activists, or squat empty properties that have been bought by immoral capitalists as investments and deliberately kept empty for years while people go homeless, or take to the streets to fight fascists at neo-nazi rallies, supporting persecuted social groups such as Gays or Jews. Roger Waters may have put on a "the Wall" show in Berlin a year after the event, but Punks were railing against it with direct action long before. Really, I don't know how many punks you know, but when I think "Punk", the last thing on my mind is an image conscious Greenday fan with a skateboard under his arm.

The beginning of your post is totally true and represents exactly what is going on here. However, I am not too fond of the rest of the post where you start talking about the punks you know. The things they do are outstanding, but it doesn't really represent "punk" so to speak. Sure they are rebelling against certain things and fighting for what they believe, but that is more in tune with what the hippies and "youth movement" of the 60s were representative of.

Punks in the traditional sense consisted greatly of nihilism. They didn't give a sh*t about you, themselves, their friends, their parents, their bosses, etc. Well actually that was more of the Sex Pistols school.

Your friends might be of the Joe Strummer school. He went out and investigated and spoke out against corrupt politicians (Reagan for instance), and things of that nature.

Plenty of the original bands were politically and socially based, but it was mostly the fact they didn't give a damn that made them who they are.

Punk godfather Iggy Pop made a point back in the day that he made his music because he "didn't give a damn about all the love and peace and sh*t".

Anyways I would say punk is about 50/50 ideology and attitude/image. I don't think they are separate either, both go hand in hand. Your friends are activists rather than punks which have been around for a long time, where as punks (when speaking of those in relation to the music genre) have not been around nearly as long.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

A B Negative wrote:

Prog is also about fashion (see previous post where I mangle a Rush quote).

I strongly disagree with the atatement that Prog is a fashion for several reasons:

Fashions last little, Prog is probably the longer lasting Rock Genre in history, most of the early movements were dead by the 80's except Rhythm & Blues, Prog is lasting 4 decades and growing. You don't see a 40 years guy listening Grease (Theyp probably hide their first copy in embarrassment), but you find a lot of 50 years guys buying The Lamb or Relayer because they lost or broke their third copy of the album.There are plenty of men (not me) that do enjoy Grease, and musicals in their later years of life. Rockabilly, R&B, Blues (father of Rock), Pop Rock, Punk rock, College/Alt/Indie Rock, Metal were all alive and and well during the 80s. Some were fresher than Prog, but others were much older! All musical forms are fashionable. It doesn't really mean they are bad.
Fashions tend to sell a lot and are extremely profitable, we know that's not the case of Prog.See: DREAM THEATER, ASIA, Genesis, Rush
Normally fashions are identified with a determined age group with clothes that match to express their identity, Prog has fans from all ages and there's never been a particular style or fashion identified with Prog, at the beginning they used Hippie clothing because this movement refused to die, iut then there's not a particular or distinctive external sign for a Progger, just look at the bands, they dress as they want, and the fans go from school kids wearing what they want to Proffesionals wearing suits and hard working employees wearing uniforms.That is true of many genres. Also Prog's age group is determined in your own post (almost all ages, just like with any genre). Depending on the band Prog could be marketed to any age, as could Britney Spears, Sex Pistols, Charlie Parker. Fashionable items speak to fashionable people. Whether I prefer prog to all else and dress like a business man or a punk has no relevance to the music being fashionable or not. Prog, like every genre is a fashion.
Fashion genres sell a lot in the first months and then decrease to almost 0 in an average lapse of six moths, if you check the Prog market behaviour is exactly the opposite, they don't sell particulary better in the first months than in the next 5 or 10 years. Genesis played their magnum opus in half empthy theaters, but they achieved their first Gold Certificate in 1991 or 1992 (not sure), this means they kept selling an average during 16 years (If not they wouldn't have been considered by the RIAA), Jethro Tull until a few years ago had a media audience of 15,000 fans per show, not great but enough to live, they were never N° 1 in the charts (Except when they were wrongly classified as Metal by the Grammy Awards) neither ever made a poor show, they kept the same average since 1969 to 2003 at least., Fashion can sell poorly and still be fashion.
Fashion genres have a language, look at Psyche and check any Austin Powers movie, I know it's a joke, but the liguistic quotes are very accurate, or Rap and the violent language, Punk and their revolutionary hate discourse, etc. Yo can't tell a Proghead by his way of speaking, normally is the average Joe, I have friends who still in their 40's live to surf, stereotypical nerds, Middle Class Proffesional and white collar employes as well as factory workers, all with their distinctive language according to other considerations. A Nerd is generally the stereotype of the prog world, at least it has been for several years now. That is all stereotypes though.

So Prog is anything except a fashion.

So Prog is anything except not a fashion.

My 2 cents.

Iván

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 08 2007 at 01:17

BroSpence wrote:

There are plenty of men (not me) that do enjoy Grease, and musicals in their later years of life. Rockabilly, R&B, Blues (father of Rock), Pop Rock, Punk rock, College/Alt/Indie Rock, Metal were all alive and and well during the 80s. Some were fresher than Prog, but others were much older! All musical forms are fashionable. It doesn't really mean they are bad.

About Rockabilly, it's more a regional thing, Classic Rock is popular still, but very few bands ascribe to this style, Punk or at least pure Punk, died in a couple of years.

You can't imagine how many bands send their albums to Prog Archives or Progressive Ears asking to be included, that doesn't happen with other genres.

I'm not saying or said that fashion is bad, only pointed that IMO Prog was never a Fashion.

See: DREAM THEATER, ASIA, Genesis, Rush

I believe Dream Theater is Prog Metal band, but most of their fans are Metalheads rather than Progheads, and Metal was popular, so they followed the fate of the main genre, but if you haven't noticed, there's a decline in popularity for this band, they lasted less than most Classic Prog bands.

ASIA was never Prog, so that explains the situation.

Genesis only became a fashion when Hackett left and they went POP, in the Gabriel years they were almost a cult band, almost all their career was fornmed in Colleges and universities while other Prog bands were bbefore big audiences, then they became better known but their fate didn't changed, all The Lamb Tour was played in half empty concert halls, they were not even a fashion during ATOTT and W&W, they became a fashion with ATTW3 and only reached the peak of the charts with Invisible touch that is a 100% POP album.

Rush is not a fashion, Rush is one ofvthe bands wioth bigger and faithful fanbase, as Pink Floyd was in their time.

That is true of many genres. Also Prog's age group is determined in your own post (almost all ages, just like with any genre). Depending on the band Prog could be marketed to any age, as could Britney Spears, Sex Pistols, Charlie Parker. Fashionable items speak to fashionable people. Whether I prefer prog to all else and dress like a business man or a punk has no relevance to the music being fashionable or not. Prog, like every genre is a fashion.

Most popular bands are designed to appeal for different ages, you rarely see a 30 years guy listening Britney, or a businessman listening Punk, neither a Proffessional dressing in white suit and black shirt while dancing Stayin' Alive.

Prog has appeal for every age and economic condition and has survived ptrecisely because was never extremely popular or fashionable.

Fashion can sell poorly and still be fashion.

Then it will last even less

A Nerd is generally the stereotype of the prog world, at least it has been for several years now. That is all stereotypes though.

Yes, it's teh stereotype, but you find teens, College and ubniversity students, young adults, people in their 30's, 40's or 50's listening Prog, as well as you find nerds, bussinesmen, surfers, proffessionals, workers, etc listening Prog.

Something almost exclusive of Prog.

So Prog is anything except not a fashion.

Fashion is designed to last a short time, iof not it's not profitable, in order to launch a new product or new fashion, you need the passt one to vansihm, this doesn't happen with Progg, the most attacks we receiove, the healthier we get.

Prog acts contrary to any definition of Fashion

Fashion, by definition, changes constantly. The changes may proceed more rapidly than in most other fields of human activity (language, thought, etc). For some, modern fast-paced changes in fashion embody many of the negative aspects of capitalism: it results in waste and encourages people qua consumers to buy things unnecessarily. Other people, especially young people, enjoy the diversity that changing fashion can apparently provide, seeing the constant change as a way to satisfy their desire to experience "new" and "interesting" things.

As you see, this describes anything but Prog music.

Iván

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Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: September 08 2007 at 09:57

I can't agree that prog enjoys more longevity than most genres. 1950s Rock n Roll fans abound to this day, and have been around since long before Prog. Elvis still sells in huge quantities. Grease is still massively popular here in the Netherlands.

I see no truth in the statement that prog "is probably the longest lasting genre in rock history." Ever been to a Beatles fan bash? The best selling band in history have a good 6 or 7 years on prog, and their sales didn't dip massively in the intervening years like prog's did.

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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.

Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 08 2007 at 14:49

Seyo wrote:

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

Well said, Seyo! Clap

It's like when, talking about literature, they say, for instance, that Romanticism was a reaction against the Enlightenment... and then you get people like Goethe that "belong" to both movements.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 08 2007 at 15:07

emdiar wrote:

I can't agree that prog enjoys more longevity than most genres. 1950s Rock n Roll fans abound to this day, and have been around since long before Prog. Elvis still sells in huge quantities. Grease is still massively popular here in the Netherlands.

Classic Rock may still be alive, but that's ROCK, the main genre, it's a generic term and the mother of all genres, we are all covered by that unbrella called ROCK & ROLL.

Elvis is popular, but sadly Elvis is dead, there are not more artists trying to play that genre, there's a theory that pure Rock is dead since Rap and Hip Hop appeared, and I partially agree, there's no more artists trying to play this style of the 50's since the 70's.

People may buy Grease albums, but DISCO IS DEAD since 1984 more or less, there are no new artists that play that genre, all what people buy are old albums from bands that once released that music and don't exist anymore in most cases

If any Disco band will reunite today, it would be a complete faillure, nobody would buy their albums but there's market for thousand of new Prog bands every year.

Prog is a diffenent case, since 1967 or 68 when it was born there's not a single year in which you didn't had hundreed of Prog releases....today it's even more radical, hundreed of bands send their demos to Prog Archives, Progressive Ears, GEPR or Proggnosis asking for their inclusion every month.

We have labels like Musea, F2 Records and Syn-phonic that release exclusively Prog music.

For God's sake, every Metal band with a keyboard and Alternative band wants to be labeled as Prog.

You can't say a genre is alive if very few or no bands try to play in that genre, Grease was released in 1978, still some fans survive, but who tries to play Disco today?

If you see hundreeds of bands trying to release albums of one genre, only then you can affirm it's alive annd that's the case of Prog.

The Beatles split in the early 70's, people remembers them, but there are no bands trying to play in their style, so this style is also dead.

The Beatles never did Prog, if they did, they would be in a Prog Sub-Genre, but they are in Proto Prog, this means they were only an influence to the genre but not part of it.

I insist, along with Rhythm & Blues that keeps surviving, probably Prog is longest lasting Rock genre.

Iván

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Posted By: Bj-1
Date Posted: September 08 2007 at 15:21

Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys, Gang of Four, Bad Religion, Offspring, Clash..

Like'em all. Not my favorite genre at all, but I enjoy it nevertheless!

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RIO/AVANT/ZEUHL - The best thing you can get with yer pants on!

Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 09 2007 at 05:58

Punk bands can be good too, for instance Black Flag when they had Dez on 2nd guitar and Chuck Biscuits on drums. Their live performances were incredible and had lots of King Crimson influences too. Fishbone at their peak were one of the best live bands ever.

Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: September 11 2007 at 00:12

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BroSpence wrote:

Again, guide yourself by general rules, the normal mainstream listener (the vast majority) liosten what is fashion in a certain moment, they forget about the album as soon as it ceases to be piopular, POP AND DISCO WERECDESIGNED TO ACT LIKE THIS.

Yes it may be true that they "forget" about an album after it is no longer trendy. Pop and disco were not designed like this, they were MARKETED like this. Just like any genre is marketed. They are designed to sell well, make money and if they run their course then the marketing is focused elsewhere. However, things that are not being marketed like crazy are still fashionable.

About Rockabilly, it's more a regional thing, Classic Rock is popular still, but very few bands ascribe to this style, Punk or at least pure Punk, died in a couple of years.

Something can be regional, but still influential. Country music is played by many people not from the south. Plenty of bands still ascribe to classical rock styling. They usually suck, but that doesn't mean they doesn't ascribe to it. Plenty of bands after 1977 still made 1977 style punk, other evolved into other forms be it post-punk, hardcore, etc.

You can't imagine how many bands send their albums to Prog Archives or Progressive Ears asking to be included, that doesn't happen with other genres.

How do you know? Do you work for rockarchives? classicrockarchives? punkarchives? I'm sure plenty of bands send their albums to you guys, but loads of bands send their albums out to loads of places.

I'm not saying or said that fashion is bad, only pointed that IMO Prog was never a Fashion.

Prog was and is a fashion. Just like any other genre, as I said before.

See: DREAM THEATER, ASIA, Genesis, Rush

Prog Metal is still progressive. Also they may not be popular on this site as much as they were, but I assure you more people like them now than two or three years ago. They've become incredibly popular and still sell their fair share of goods.

ASIA was never Prog, so that explains the situation.

Genesis only became a fashion when Hackett left and they went POP, in the Gabriel years they were almost a cult band, almost all their career was fornmed in Colleges and universities while other Prog bands were bbefore big audiences, then they became better known but their fate didn't changed, all The Lamb Tour was played in half empty concert halls, they were not even a fashion during ATOTT and W&W, they became a fashion with ATTW3 and only reached the peak of the charts with Invisible touch that is a 100% POP album.

Still a fashion in Gabriel-years, just not as big a fashion as later years.

Rush is not a fashion, Rush is one ofvthe bands wioth bigger and faithful fanbase, as Pink Floyd was in their time.

Rush is a fashion, as is Pink Floyd (thanks for reminding me of them!). Both are hugely popular. There are thousands of people that own that damn Dark Side shirt, or the Wall (one of the BIGGEST selling albums of all time). Rush plays stadium and amphitheater shows when they tour, and Pink Floyd's success is still obvious. Both bands fit in the "very fashionable" category.

But it does happen, because its a fashion and people want to be fashionable.

Prog has appeal for every age and economic condition and has survived ptrecisely because was never extremely popular or fashionable.

Well that is applicable to almost all genres. Classical is the only style that is truly associated with the upper class. Everything else is POPULAR or folk music. Jazz, Rock, Rap and even Classical and folk are appealing to anyone no matter what their economic status or age is. All have survived as well.

Fashion can sell poorly and still be fashion.

Then it will last even less

Prog hasn't really sold well compared to some other styles. So taking what you said in your reply to me, prog should be dead because it was a poor selling fashion. This is not the case at all.

A Nerd is generally the stereotype of the prog world, at least it has been for several years now. That is all stereotypes though.

Something almost exclusive of Prog.

No not exclusive at all! Thats true of every genre! Hell even Bob Dylan likes rap and he's 65 or so! Students, teens, young and old people alike, all listen to what they like and it usually ranges in style.

So Prog is anything except not a fashion.

Prog acts contrary to any definition of Fashion

No, Fashion is many designs that may or may not last a long or short time. Fashion can be profitable or not. You can be out of fashion, but still have a fashion. The attacks on prog are irrelevant on whether its a fashion or not, it only affects whether it IS or is NOT fashionable to a particular crowd.

Prog can act contrary to fashion or being fashionable, but it still fits perfectly in the defintion and definitions of fashion.

As you see, this describes anything but Prog music.

Yes, Genesis and Rush among others tried following trends to sell well in the 80s. Rush did so in the 90s as well.

Fashion is also defined by these points:

1.	a prevailing custom or style of dress, etiquette, socializing, etc.: the latest fashion in dresses.

2.	conventional usage in dress, manners, etc., esp. of polite society, or conformity to it: the dictates of fashion; to be out of fashion.

3.	manner; way; mode: in a warlike fashion.

4.	the make or form of anything: He liked the fashion of the simple, sturdy furniture.

5.	a kind; sort: All fashions of people make up the world.

.	http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=workmanship -

–verb (used with object)

8.	to give a particular shape or form to; make: The cavemen fashioned tools from stones.

9.	to accommodate; adjust; adapt: doctrines fashioned to the varying hour.

12.	after or in a fashion, in some manner or other or to some extent; in a makeshift, unskillful, or unsatisfactory way: He's an artist after a fashion.

Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Classic Rock may still be alive, but that's ROCK, the main genre, it's a generic term and the mother of all genres, we are all covered by that unbrella called ROCK & ROLL.

Classic rock isn't really a genre of Rock its a radio format for playing older rock bands. Rock and Roll however would fit under the "umbrella" as it is a sub-genre of Rock.

No, not true. Chris Isaak is one. Roy Orbison continued making rock and roll until the late 80s. Stray Cats and and Brian Setzer still make rock and roll. Little Richard put out albums in the 80s and 90s and Jerry Lee Lewis still puts out albums. Bo Diddley probably would if he weren't sick at the moment.

Actually disco has been fused into other styles and did not actually die.

If any Disco band will reunite today, it would be a complete faillure, nobody would buy their albums but there's market for thousand of new Prog bands every year.

If the Bee Gees reunited there would be a lot of tickets sold. There was even a Bee Gees night on American Idol. Bands today like the Killers, Modest Mouse, Franz Ferdinand, and many many many more have taken disco beats and mixed it into rock songs (not the first time this has happened). They're albums also happen to sell A LOT. So no I would say a disco reunion wouldn't be so bad off. I have no argument against there being a market for new Prog bands.

There isn't really a year where any genre of music doesn't feature a release. Also more people are able to record and release their material when compared to the last 60 years. So if this were the Klezmer archvies you'd probably still be getting plenty of recordings.

We have labels like Musea, F2 Records and Syn-phonic that release exclusively Prog music.

There are numerous labels that are exclusive to one style or another. In fact some like Verve signed and released albums by rock groups because it was the fashion. Some of those groups were Prog.

For God's sake, every Metal band with a keyboard and Alternative band wants to be labeled as Prog.

No.

You can't say a genre is alive if very few or no bands try to play in that genre, Grease was released in 1978, still some fans survive, but who tries to play Disco today?

Yes you can as being alive means there is some life. If you have a low pulse you are still alive. Grease is still preformed on Broadway. As I said before Disco was mixed into many other styles at the start of the 80s. Modest Mouse, Franz Ferdinand, Metric, Dismemberment Plan, many electronic artists (House, etc) took their fair share from Disco.

If you see hundreeds of bands trying to release albums of one genre, only then you can affirm it's alive annd that's the case of Prog.

Well...yes and no.

The Beatles split in the early 70's, people remembers them, but there are no bands trying to play in their style, so this style is also dead.

So no one plays pop/rock or brit-pop anymore? And I guess that would mean Paul McCartney is dead too, and no one was influenced by the Beatles....

The Beatles never did Prog, if they did, they would be in a Prog Sub-Genre, but they are in Proto Prog, this means they were only an influence to the genre but not part of it.

Proto-prog is kind of a subgenre of Prog, or other way around depending how you like your genres organized. The Beatles were a massive influence on the genre of Prog. That makes it part of it.

I insist, along with Rhythm & Blues that keeps surviving, probably Prog is longest lasting Rock genre.

Insist all you want, that is not true.

Iván

BroSpence

Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: September 11 2007 at 01:20

so prog fans in general have evolved passed the need to hate unless they can describe with some theory what they are feeling about the subject , where as punk fans take a hammer to what they don't understand ... know what I`d rather be

But Ivan in the early days of the Neo Prog movement there were some connections to prog you must admit that certain songs by Twelfth Night and The odd Marillion tune had some references more so in their anti establishment sentiment ,Peter Hammill from VDDG may have given a strong nod to certain punk vocal applications before punk even came along ... there's definitely some truth in these facts, in a sense prog created punk which is a spin out when you think about it Confused

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 11 2007 at 02:13

You know something Bro Spencer, I wrote a long reply, but your last line

Insist all you want, that is not true.

Relieve me of any will to reply you.

You made a couple of good points, but each time you reply with a simple no or false or that's not true without any supporting argument, you loose any credibility.

Just show me a significative number of PURE Punk and Disco bands and I will believe you, not talking about Dance, Trance or whatever bands that rip a couple of chords or share a couple of elements, I'm talking about PURE bands.

While i could easily give you 50 or maybe even 100 new PURE Prog bands since the 90's.

Until that day I will insist both genres as many others more popular than Prog are dead.

Good luck in your search.

Iván

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Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: September 11 2007 at 04:32

Ghost Rider wrote:

Seyo wrote:

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

Well said, Seyo! Clap

It's like when, talking about literature, they say, for instance, that Romanticism was a reaction against the Enlightenment... and then you get people like Goethe that "belong" to both movements.

Yeah, here it is - the missing prog-punk link :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stranglers_&_Friends_Live_in_Concert - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stranglers_&_Friends_Live_in_Concert

One should here P. Hammill singing the furious "Tank".

Oh, by the way Robert Fripp and Steve Hillage were also present....

Posted By: Seyo
Date Posted: September 11 2007 at 04:41

I also agree with Ivan that punk is primarily a fashion, a trend, although it includes music too. Unlike prog rock that is primarily a musical style (I am even not certain about the term "genre"?).

Punk was also a counter-culture movement (social, even political to some extent) encompassing many different forms of popular culture, including but not limiting to musical expression.

Much to the similarity with Hippie/Flower Power counter-culture of the decade earlier, which was also a broad fashion/movement, including also the musical as well as other artistic expression.

Classic prog rock of the 1970s formed within the latter as a particular style of rock music, rather than a mere fashion.

...

Posted By: Progrock105
Date Posted: September 11 2007 at 15:43

Punk is one of those genres that started out tolerable, but rapidly went downhill. I actually like the Clash (although I despise the Sex Pistols), but find modern punk to be incalculably horrible. I find the same thing with Alt-rock and even Country.

Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: September 12 2007 at 22:13

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

You know something Bro Spencer, I wrote a long reply, but your last line

Insist all you want, that is not true.

Relieve me of any will to reply you.

You made a couple of good points, but each time you reply with a simple no or false or that's not true without any supporting argument, you loose any credibility.

While i could easily give you 50 or maybe even 100 new PURE Prog bands since the 90's.

Until that day I will insist both genres as many others more popular than Prog are dead.

Good luck in your search.

Iván

It is too bad you spent a lot of time writing a reply and then deleting it because of one line. You say I am guilty of not providing evidence in many parts of my reply, yet you have little to no evidence in your case as well. You have said many times that various genres are dead and that prog is one of the longest lasting in the Rock field, but fail to back it up except by saying many bands send their CDs to progarchives and even non-prog artists wish to be included.

You also need to share your definition of what a "pure" punk band is. Additionally, I never said there were any "pure" disco groups out right now. It is very possible that there could be, but I do not follow that genre closely so I do not know whether there is or is not. I said the genre never died because it split off and influenced many other genres that are still around today. It was even influential to Prog.

For your pleasure here is my evidence for these parts:

You can't imagine how many bands send their albums to Prog Archives or Progressive Ears asking to be included, that doesn't happen with other genres.

If you need evidence for this then here it is. I spend a lot of my time well outside of prog rock. In fact this site is about the only place I go when it comes to finding out about progressive rock news, albums, etc. Outside of that I go to tons of local concerts and arts events 90% of which feature non-prog artists. Styles featured include punk, alternative/college rock, pop rock, ska, dance, electronic, folk rock, folk, singer-songwriter, world, hard rock, rock and roll, surf rock, and many many more styles. I also have friends that work at independent radio stations which receive numerous CDs from all different styles of artists such as rap, alternative, folk, pop rock, jazz, prog, post-rock, and so on.

So yes THAT (sending CDs for inclusion, and older genres not being dead) does happen in the world that is not prog-rock.

[quote}I'm not saying or said that fashion is bad, only pointed that IMO Prog was never a Fashion.

Prog was and is a fashion. Just like any other genre, as I said before. [/quote]

Prog is a style of music. It is marketable to many people and at one time was quite popular and well received. Same is true of other genres it all depends on how the product is marketed. Prog is not as fashionable as it once was, but many people still love it, and play it. As you mentioned in one section even metal and alternative bands wish for inclusion. Seems they want to be in on the fashion.

For God's sake, every Metal band with a keyboard and Alternative band wants to be labeled as Prog.

No.

Evidence: That is a huge generalization. There were keyboards in rock before and after the conception of prog. It does not mean a band wishes to be prog because it has a keyboardist. Some alt-rock and metal bans that fit: The Cure, Depeche Mode, Suicide, My Morning Jacket, Cradle of Filth, Children of Bodom, Elvis Costello and Attractions, Emperor, Sparklehorse, Granddaddy, Flaming Lips, Hot Hot Heat, Wolf Parade, and many more....

If you see hundreeds of bands trying to release albums of one genre, only then you can affirm it's alive annd that's the case of Prog.

Well...yes and no.

Evidence: Yes it is true hundreds of bands release albums in the prog-rock genre, but no because it is not true that a genre is affirmed alive because hundreds of bands are releasing albums in that field. A genre is dead if it is dead. If you have a pulse you are alive, if it is weak you are alive. You are not dead until your heart stops and you are pronounced dead. Just because a genre doesn't gets a ton of releases does not mean it is dead.

I insist, along with Rhythm & Blues that keeps surviving, probably Prog is longest lasting Rock genre.

Insist all you want, that is not true.

evidence: As I said insisting it doesn't make things true. I could insist Elvis is alive, but we all know he is dead (his heart stopped and is disintegrated by now).

Genres older than prog that still have life in them:

Rock and Roll
Surf rock
Alt-rock
Psychedelic rock
blues rock
garage rock
a capella
folk rock
pop rock/teen pop
country rock
rockabilly
singer/songwriter

and those are just in the rock "umbrella" before prog that are still around. There are more post-prog conception, and in the R&B genre.

Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: September 12 2007 at 22:21

Ghost Rider wrote:

Seyo wrote:

Some of my most fav artists are considered punk or related to it:

THE CLASH, THE STRANGLERS, SEX PISTOLS, TALKING HEADS, B-52's, JOY DIVISION, THE CURE, THE POLICE, THE RAMONES, THE TELEVISION, PATTI SMITH... to name a few.

Never bought the theory that "punk killed prog", it is all about evolution of musical history... no one killed anyone

Well said, Seyo! Clap

It's like when, talking about literature, they say, for instance, that Romanticism was a reaction against the Enlightenment... and then you get people like Goethe that "belong" to both movements.

That's just what comes to MY mind when I think about punk rock Wink

I have a soft spot for the more intelligent punks, as well as the Ramones and Sex Pistols (talk all you want, the Pistols weren't smart punks. They were the KISS of punk, but boy were they good). The Clash (the only band that matters), Crass, Husker Du, Talking Heads, and my personal favorite, the Dead Kennedys, which is like Vonnegut set to distorted guitars. Smart music is smart music, and I'm fortunate that I grew up in the emptiness of post-grunge in that I can like whatever I want without worrying about loyalty to one genre.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 00:25

BroSpence wrote:

It is too bad you spent a lot of time writing a reply and then deleting it because of one line. You say I am guilty of not providing evidence in many parts of my reply, yet you have little to no evidence in your case as well. You have said many times that various genres are dead and that prog is one of the longest lasting in the Rock field, but fail to back it up except by saying many bands send their CDs to progarchives and even non-prog artists wish to be included.

Again no Bro Spence, as much as i like Prog I also follow other genres, exc´pt Rap, Hip Hop and some alternative, most genres are in decadence, the mainstream market is mostly covered by Rap and hip Hop, even Pop is on retreat.

You also need to share your definition of what a "pure" punk band is. Additionally, I never said there were any "pure" disco groups out right now. It is very possible that there could be, but I do not follow that genre closely so I do not know whether there is or is not. I said the genre never died because it split off and influenced many other genres that are still around today. It was even influential to Prog.

Pure Punk is Punk as theior pioneers wanted it to be, contestatary, extremey sinmmple, mainly two or 3 chords songs, aggressive and antio commercial, nonoe of those early characteriostics is present in todays bands as you accept.

If it splits to the point that looses all it's identity, it's not more the genre that was once created, while today you can listen gundreeds of bands sounding like Prog in the 70's, 80's and 90's, the essense of Prog has not changed.

For your pleasure here is my evidence for these parts:

Just in case, the black font text was written by you...so you're answering your own question, I never asked for your background, I couldn't care less for the background of the members, I care for what they write.

So yes THAT (sending CDs for inclusion, and older genres not being dead) does happen in the world that is not prog-rock.

Prog is a genre with it's own characteristics, not a style or a mood.

It is marketable to many people and at one time was quite popular and well received.

But it was never a fashion, only mainstream bands reached Grammys and awards, Prog was always ignored by most of the music listening community.

Same is true of other genres it all depends on how the product is marketed. Prog is not as fashionable as it once was,

Again, Prog was ever a fashion, it was more popular inm the 70¡s than in the 80's or 90's but always a minority, almost no airplay, no mention in awards.

Magazines dedicated pagesdto criticize it or simply ignored Prog.....That's not a fashion, I don't know if you, but I was there in the late 70's and always Prog was accepted by a small minority, representative yes, but not a fashion.

Plus, Prog was about music, nobody cared how cool you looked if you were a Prog fan (By the contrary, Prog was considered uncool), nobody cared for how the musicians dressed, some used capes, others costumes but most dressed as the average joe.

but many people still love it, and play it. As you mentioned in one section even metal and alternative bands wish for inclusion. Seems they want to be in on the fashion.

Probably they want to be a fashion, everyubody wants to make some profit of their career, but they never were one, just an almost underground genre.

Evidence: That is a huge generalization. There were keyboards in rock before and after the conception of prog. It does not mean a band wishes to be prog because it has a keyboardist. Some alt-rock and metal bans that fit: The Cure, Depeche Mode, Suicide, My Morning Jacket, Cradle of Filth, Children of Bodom, Elvis Costello and Attractions, Emperor, Sparklehorse, Granddaddy, Flaming Lips, Hot Hot Heat, Wolf Parade, and many more....

If you check Prog Metal has grown out of proportion, bands that have no relation with Prog, only because they have a couple of Baroque keyboard solos claim they are Prog Metal, and honestly, most of them sound exactly the same, they want to see Ptrog Metal as a sub-genre of Metal rather than as a Prog Sub-genre, when they go to Prog sites, they proclaim they are a different specie than Progressive Rock.

evidence: As I said insisting it doesn't make things true. I could insist Elvis is alive, but we all know he is dead (his heart stopped and is disintegrated by now).

That's not evidence at all, it's only a list of Rock Sub-genres or moods

Iván

-------------

Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: September 13 2007 at 21:28

Patti Smith, Television, The Fall, Pere Ubu, Richard Hell, Swell Maps, The Clash, The Stranglers, there's too much amazing punk too ignore. These are all great punk bands that expanded the boundaries of rock and definetely had more to them than what many ignorant people here classify as punk. Also, some of the greatest poets I know of come out of the New York punk scene, Patti Smith, Richard Hell, and Tom Verlaine are all amongst the best lyricist i've ever heard.

Also remember: without punk much of the RIO and Post Rock we all love wouldn't be nearly as great as it is.

-------------

Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 17:28

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

It's not one phrase, is the attitude of believing that just answetring NO or Not True or Insist but that's false are some of the things we fighted as a forum, music is not a science, in most cases there are no right or wrong answers, only different perspectives and opinions.

Well it seems so obvious that these genres are still alive and kicking and that prog like all the other genres is a fashion that my no or false replies to your generalizations don't need backing up. I could understand not replying if the entire post was just nos and one word answers, but that was not the case.

Again no Bro Spence, as much as i like Prog I also follow other genres, exc´pt Rap, Hip Hop and some alternative, most genres are in decadence, the mainstream market is mostly covered by Rap and hip Hop, even Pop is on retreat.

Rap has actually been on the decline and emo groups and rock bands like Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, Hinder, Nickleback, etc are seeing pretty good profits compared to other artists. Reunion acts are also seeing big bucks and some are even talking about recording or already are recording new albums. That being said the major labels as a whole are having big money problems and independent labels seem to be able to sign and release better artists, and shift their marketing much easier than the 3 mega labels can.

You also need to share your definition of what a "pure" punk band is. Additionally, I never said there were any "pure" disco groups out right now. It is very possible that there could be, but I do not follow that genre closely so I do not know whether there is or is not. I said the genre never died because it split off and influenced many other genres that are still around today. It was even influential to Prog.

Well, there is the Addicts, the Exploited, the Buzzcocks, the Damned, The Fall, U.K Subs, Dillinger Four, Sonic Youth, Richard Hell, Fear, Grinderman, Radio Birdman, X, Mission of Burma.

Yes that could be true, except it is still clearly identifiable and with identity. I mean even some of the old disco artists are still touring, recording and producing.

For your pleasure here is my evidence for these parts:

Just in case, the black font text was written by you...so you're answering your own question, I never asked for your background, I couldn't care less for the background of the members, I care for what they write.

Yes and the part you failed to include was by you. I was giving my background information and experience to show that I'm not just pulling sh*t out of my ass as part of the evidence you asked for. In fact here's the exact quote between you and I:

You can't imagine how many bands send their albums to Prog Archives or Progressive Ears asking to be included, that doesn't happen with other genres.

How do you know? Do you work for rockarchives? classicrockarchives? punkarchives? I'm sure plenty of bands send their albums to you guys, but loads of bands send their albums out to loads of places.

See, you said that I couldn't imagine how many bands send their albums to progarchives to be included and that that does not happen with other genres. I replied to your statement and your only reply was a laugh and a mentioning of how you couldn't care about my background.

So yes THAT (sending CDs for inclusion, and older genres not being dead) does happen in the world that is not prog-rock.

I also help in a radio and visit as many pages of Rockl existing, I try to keep informed and no genre is growing in the rate of Prog in the last years, except the already mentioned rap and Hip Hop, maybe alternative keeps a level.

Well that seems like quite an assumption. I'd say a lot genres have grown or are growing since the 1960s considering how easy it is to record and release material (as I said earlier). Also as I said before

I go to tons of local concerts and arts events 90% of which feature non-prog artists. Styles featured include punk, alternative/college rock, pop rock, ska, dance, electronic, folk rock, folk, singer-songwriter, world, hard rock, rock and roll, surf rock, and many many more styles. I also have friends that work at independent radio stations which receive numerous CDs from all different styles of artists such as rap, alternative, folk, pop rock, jazz, prog, post-rock, and so on.

Prog is a style of music.

Prog is a genre with it's own characteristics, not a style or a mood.

A genre is a style. Every genre/style has its own characteristics, and mood.

It is marketable to many people and at one time was quite popular and well received.

But it was never a fashion, only mainstream bands reached Grammys and awards, Prog was always ignored by most of the music listening community.

And you don't think Yes was more fashionable within the community than Atomic Rooster? Yes is even fashionable people not in the prog community. Roundabout is constantly on the radio even more so than Owner of a Lonely Heart. Also as I and you mentioned before: PINK FLOYD. A band that has two of the best selling albums of all time.

Same is true of other genres it all depends on how the product is marketed. Prog is not as fashionable as it once was,

Again, Prog was ever a fashion, it was more popular inm the 70¡s than in the 80's or 90's but always a minority, almost no airplay, no mention in awards.

Award shows barely mention anyone or anything aside from the 5 artists nominated. You say Prog was never a fashion which you follow up by saying it was more popular in the 70s than 80s and 90s. You also have mentioned that thousands of bands send in material for inclusion on the boards. If prog isn't a fashion and does not sell well why would a band send in material to a prog site if they were looking to make money? Wouldn't that mean they would become less popular and make less money?

Magazines dedicated pagesdto criticize it or simply ignored Prog.....That's not a fashion, I don't know if you, but I was there in the late 70's and always Prog was accepted by a small minority, representative yes, but not a fashion.

And magazines dedicate pages to trashing Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan and its all people talk about but that doesn't mean they're not a fashion.

Plus, Prog was about music, nobody cared how cool you looked if you were a Prog fan (By the contrary, Prog was considered uncool), nobody cared for how the musicians dressed, some used capes, others costumes but most dressed as the average joe.

Well a lot of genres are about the music. And only superficial assholes really care how you look. Superficial assholes plague all genres.

but many people still love it, and play it. As you mentioned in one section even metal and alternative bands wish for inclusion. Seems they want to be in on the fashion.

Probably they want to be a fashion, everyubody wants to make some profit of their career, but they never were one, just an almost underground genre.

So if the bands wish to be a fashion and make a profit they go to a prog site for inclusion to do so even though you been saying this whole time that prog is not a fashion?

Evidence: That is a huge generalization. There were keyboards in rock before and after the conception of prog. It does not mean a band wishes to be prog because it has a keyboardist. Some alt-rock and metal bans that fit: The Cure, Depeche Mode, Suicide, My Morning Jacket, Cradle of Filth, Children of Bodom, Elvis Costello and Attractions, Emperor, Sparklehorse, Granddaddy, Flaming Lips, Hot Hot Heat, Wolf Parade, and many more....

If you check Prog Metal has grown out of proportion, bands that have no relation with Prog, only because they have a couple of Baroque keyboard solos claim they are Prog Metal, and honestly, most of them sound exactly the same, they want to see Ptrog Metal as a sub-genre of Metal rather than as a Prog Sub-genre, when they go to Prog sites, they proclaim they are a different specie than Progressive Rock.

I have no doubt that progmetal has grown out of proportion and that there are a good amount of bands that aren't really related that are included. However, I mentioned groups that did/do not wish to be or try to be prog that used keyboards to address you saying that "every alternative and metal band with a keyboard wishes for inclusion on progarchives". You have not addressed my post, only given your opinion on progmetal's proportionis getting out of hand on this website.

evidence: As I said insisting it doesn't make things true. I could insist Elvis is alive, but we all know he is dead (his heart stopped and is disintegrated by now).
Genres older than prog that still have life in them:

Rock and Roll (stray cats, Brian Setzer, Chris Isaak, Jerry Lee Lewis...)
Surf rock (Dick Dales, The Ventures, Los Straightjackets, The Sir Finks...)
Alt-rock (Wolf Parade, Radiohead, Doris Henson...)
Psychedelic rock (Acid Mothers Temple, Dungen, Ghost...)
blues rock (Allman Brothers Band, Buddy Guy, Jimmie Vaughan, Eric Clapton, The Rolling Stones...)
garage rock (The Mooney Suzuki, The Fleshtones, The Mummies...)
a capella (Da Vinci's Notebook, The Bobs, The Nylons, Rockapella...)
folk rock (Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, Fairport Convention, Hot Tuna...)
pop rock/teen pop (Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Hanson, Paul McCartney...)
country rock (Eagles, Alabama, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Emmylou Harris, Levon Helm...)
rockabilly (Sonny Burgess, Sleepy LaBeef, Reverend Horton Heat...)
singer/songwriter (Van Morrison, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Joan Baez...)

and those are just in the rock "umbrella" before prog that are still around. There are more post-prog conception, and in the R&B genre.

That's not evidence at all, it's only a list of Rock Sub-genres or moods

Well I figured since I had already mentioned several artists in those genres (in my posts) that still work today I didn't need to include a list of people from those genres that are so clearly alive. Also they are rock sub-genres like prog, not moods, but are not exclusive from moods of the performers, listeners or sounds. Anyways if you so desire I've included some examples of people in each genre that work or still work.
Iván

BroSpence

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 21:22

BroSpence wrote:

Well it seems so obvious that these genres are still alive and kicking and that prog like all the other genres is a fashion that my no or false replies to your generalizations don't need backing up. I could understand not replying if the entire post was just nos and one word answers, but that was not the case.

Why is it a fashion please? Because you say it?

Your only argument has been Prog is a fashion as ecery ghenre because some people like it.

Rap has actually been on the decline and emo groups and rock bands like Fall Out Boy, My Chemical Romance, Hinder, Nickleback, etc are seeing pretty good profits compared to other artists. Reunion acts are also seeing big bucks and some are even talking about recording or already are recording new albums. That being said the major labels as a whole are having big money problems and independent labels seem to be able to sign and release better artists, and shift their marketing much easier than the 3 mega labels can.

EMO and Rap are much younger than Prog, I don't know about the other bands you mention, their sales, popularity, etc.

Reunion concerts are always profitable, that means nothing, if ABBA who are as dead as Adam and Eve made a reunion tour, they would gather thousands of persons buying tickets and full stadiums, that doesn't mean they are alive, if they ever make a gig and start to release new material again I would believe they are alive, otherwise they are dead band

Well, there is the Addicts, the Exploited, the Buzzcocks, the Damned, The Fall, U.K Subs, Dillinger Four, Sonic Youth, Richard Hell, Fear, Grinderman, Radio Birdman, X, Mission of Burma.

None of them is pure Punk

The Addicts are catalogued as Rock with absolutely no information
The Exploited are more metal than Punk
The Damned started as a Punk band, they went Goth and ended being a dance band, their last album in 2002 (5 years ago) was described by Rat Scabies (Member of the band) as a mix of Goth and Art Rock
UK Subs are an exception, but not sure if they release new material since 1996
Dillinger Four are Pop band with influence of Punk, that's not even remotely close to the roots or esence of Punk
Sonic Youth are Indie, Alternative, anything but Punk
Richard Hell is a surviving Punk, but in more than a decade hasn't released anything new

I could check all of them but it's clear that a handfull of barely Punk artists and a couple of survivors don't keep a genre alive.

Yes that could be true, except it is still clearly identifiable and with identity. I mean even some of the old disco artists are still touring, recording and producing.

Identifiable? So if they sound remotely influence by Punk means Punk is alive, please even the hardcore Punk fans admit the genre is dead and live remembering the Summer of 77.

Disco sold millions daily, today their sales are minimum and lets say 90% are old records bought by nostalgic fans.

Yes and the part you failed to include was by you. I was giving my background information and experience to show that I'm not just pulling sh*t out of my ass as part of the evidence you asked for. In fact here's the exact quote between you and I:

And I don't care for the background of any person, here all the members are the same for me, I care about a post no matter who wrote it, why should your case be something special.

If I don't care for your background or ever asked you for it, I care much less what you take from your a$$, that's a problem between you and your proctologist.

A genre is a style. Every genre/style has its own characteristics, and mood.

No, Genre is a deternmined category of music with it's own characteristics and parameters, style is just the way a band or a musician performs the music,

A Prog band can have:

A vocalist that sings in the style of Axl Rose or Bruce Dickinson (Check Anton Roolaart, is here in the archives)
A keyboardist that plays in the style of Wakeman, or Tony Banks or Keith Emerson, all styles different, despite all are Prog.
A guitar player that performs in the style of Jimmy Hendrix

Etc, there's an evident difference between genre and style.

And you don't think Yes was more fashionable within the community than Atomic Rooster? Yes is even fashionable people not in the prog community. Roundabout is constantly on the radio even more so than Owner of a Lonely Heart. Also as I and you mentioned before: PINK FLOYD. A band that has two of the best selling albums of all time.

Do you think that Yes is a fashion? Yes is a band that only performs, hardly could be a fashion, it was popular among a minority community, yes they were larger than bands like gabriel Genesis but this doesn’t make them a fashion.

Being liked by more people than the ones who like Atomic Rooster doesn’t make them a fashion either.

And Yes Roundabout is probably played more than Owner of a Lonely Heart because Prog is designed to last longer than POP.

Award shows barely mention anyone or anything aside from the 5 artists nominated. You say Prog was never a fashion which you follow up by saying it was more popular in the 70s than 80s and 90s.

Yes Prog was more popular among the limited Prog community of the 70's that's true, that doesn't make the genre a fashion, the fashions of the moments were massive like Punk, Disco or Pop.

You also have mentioned that thousands of bands send in material for inclusion on the boards. If prog isn't a fashion and does not sell well why would a band send in material to a prog site if they were looking to make money? Wouldn't that mean they would become less popular and make less money?

Playing a determined genre doesn't imply being a fashion, fashion has attached other characteristics that we mentioned previously, a fashion implies a way of living, a clothing, piercing, tatoos, etc, most genres have it, some don't.

You could identify most Punks in the 70's or a Disco fan, but the Prog fan could be anybody, there was no external distinctive sign to call it a fashion, you may say it's absurd, but that's part of the music today.

And magazines dedicate pages to trashing Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan and its all people talk about but that doesn't mean they're not a fashion.

Oh please!!!!!!!!!!!

They criticize, Britney, Paris Hilton or Loghan because a magazine with their faces sell millions (A magazine with the face of Greg lake won't sell too much, less with the face of Steve Hackett because he's hardly known outside the Prog community).

Prog was mostly ignored and criticized by a few critics because it was never profitable for them because their target auduiience worried about the latest fashion in music and never cared for Prog.

The same magazine that criticizes Paris today, supports their album tomorrow, the critic that attacks Prog hardly ever mentions it

Well a lot of genres are about the music. And only superficial assholes really care how you look. Superficial assholes plague all genres.

Punk, Metal, Disco, had their own paraphernalia and fashion attached and this doesn't make Metalheads superficial a$$holes just because they feel comfortable dressing how they want.

So if the bands wish to be a fashion and make a profit they go to a prog site for inclusion to do so even though you been saying this whole time that prog is not a fashion?

What can I say? No matter how much I talk you will always say that every genre is a fashion because you say it.

This bands want to be included in Prog Archives because this site is respected by the prog Community, this doesn’t make them a fashion.

They want to be recognized….Yes

They want to sell their albums….Yes

But they don’t want to be a simple fashion today and forgotten tomorrow, their main expectation (At least most of the prog bands) is in the music.

I have no doubt that progmetal has grown out of proportion and that there are a good amount of bands that aren't really related that are included.

That's the only Prog Metal bands that I mentioned, the ones that without beiong Prog, want to be considered Prog Metal just because they have a keyboard and Prog Metal is selling well..

However, I mentioned groups that did/do not wish to be or try to be prog that used keyboards to address you saying that "every alternative and metal band with a keyboard wishes for inclusion on progarchives".

That's a pleonasm, only a metaphoric figure of speech.

You have not addressed my post, only given your opinion on progmetal's proportionis getting out of hand on this website.

Not on this website, we have a capable team that cares about whioch bands are added.

Rock and Roll (stray cats, Brian Setzer, Chris Isaak, Jerry Lee Lewis...)
Surf rock (Dick Dales, The Ventures, Los Straightjackets, The Sir Finks...)
Alt-rock (Wolf Parade, Radiohead, Doris Henson...)
Psychedelic rock (Acid Mothers Temple, Dungen, Ghost...)
blues rock (Allman Brothers Band, Buddy Guy, Jimmie Vaughan, Eric Clapton, The Rolling Stones...)
garage rock (The Mooney Suzuki, The Fleshtones, The Mummies...)
a capella (Da Vinci's Notebook, The Bobs, The Nylons, Rockapella...)
folk rock (Bob Dylan, Richard Thompson, Fairport Convention, Hot Tuna...)
pop rock/teen pop (Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Hanson, Paul McCartney...)
country rock (Eagles, Alabama, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Emmylou Harris, Levon Helm...)
rockabilly (Sonny Burgess, Sleepy LaBeef, Reverend Horton Heat...)
singer/songwriter (Van Morrison, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Joan Baez...)

Do you take this list seriously?

Country and Blues are independent genres from Rock, we're talking about Rock not other timeless genres.
Singer Songwriter is only a description, there can be Prog, Rock, Pop and even Folk Singer Songwriters, it's hardly a genre.

Singer-songwriter is a term that refers to performers who write, compose, and sing their own material including lyrics, melodies, often providing the sole accompaniment to an entire composition or song. This form of artistic expression is very common among performers that are less well-known than pop artists. Some of these artists depend on word of mouth and extensive touring to garner a fan base and commonly appear at house concerts, coffee houses, folk clubs, and festivals.

A Capella is merely a style of singing without music, there can be A Cappella everywhere, but mostly in Gospel music which is not a Rock Genre.

Contemporary a cappella includes many vocal bands who add http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_percussion - vocal percussion or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatboxing - beatboxing to create a pop/rock sound, in some cases very similar to bands with instruments. One such group is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockapella - Rockapella , a preeminent example of contemporary A Cappella. There also remains a strong a cappella presence within Christian music, as some denominations do not allow instruments to be used during services.

Arrangements of popular music for small a cappella ensembles typically include one voice singing the lead melody, one singing a rhythmic bass line, and the remaining voices contributing chordal or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphony - polyphonic accompaniment.

A cappella can also describe the practice of using just the vocal track(s) from a multitrack, instrumental recording to be remixed or put onto vinyl records for DJs. Artists sometimes release the vocal tracks of their popular songs so that fans can remix them. One such example is the a cappella release of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay-Z - Jay-Z 's Black Album, which Danger Mouse mixed with the Beatles' White Album to create The Grey Album.

Increased interest in modern a cappella (particularly collegiate a cappella) can be seen in the growth of awards such as the Contemporary A Cappella Recording Awards (overseen by the Contemporary A Cappella Society) and competitions such as the International Championship of Collegiate A Cappella for college groups and the Harmony Sweepstakes for all groups.

Folk Rock is just a blending of two genres as Folk Prog, in that case Folk Rock is a sub-genre of Folk and simultaneously a sub-genre of Rock.
Garage Rock has barely survived with a handful of representatives but according to all sources, died in 1970, there have been temporary revivals but nothing else.

Garage rock is a raw form of rock and roll that was first popular in the United States and Canada from about 1963 to 1967. During the 1960s, it was not recognized as a separate music genre and had no specific name. In the early 1970s, some rock critics retroactively labelled it as punk rock. However, the music style was later referred to as garage rock or '60s Punk to avoid confusion with the music of late-1970s punk rock bands such as the SeX Pistols and The Clash.

Pop is simply an acronynm for popular music and it's an individual genre indepenant from Rock, with it's own characteristiocs, like simple structure (ABBA mostly), short leght of songs, catchy lyrivcs, etc.

Pop is contemporary music and a common type of popular music (distinguished from classical or art music and from folk music^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music#_note-0 - ]}). The term popular music does not refer specifically to a single genre or sound, and its meaning is different depending on the time and place. Within popular music, "pop music" is often distinguished from other subgenres by stylistic traits such as a danceable rhythm or beat, simple melodies and a repeating structure. Pop song lyrics are often emotional, commonly relating to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love - love , loss, emotion, or dancing. This often differs from rock, where political themes are more common.

Pop music may include elements of rock, hip hop, reggae, dance, R&B, jazz, electronic, and sometimes folk music and various other styles. For example, in the 1920s–50s pop music drew influence mainly from jazz, beginning in the 1950s from rock and R&B, and since the 1980s, from hip hop. The broad appeal of pop music is seen to distinguish it from more specific types of popular music, and pop music performers and recordings are among the best-selling and most widely known in many regions of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music

Surf Rock was barely a genre, it’s a style a fashion mostly of the 60’s nothing more.

Where are the real popular Rock related genres like Punk, New Wave or Disco?

BTW: Do you believe it's serious to catalogue The Ventures as a real Rock band?

Please, they made most of their carrer based in covers of twist, country, pop, spy music, psychedelic, swamp, garage, TV themes, disco, reggae, soft rock and Latin music.

That's like saying Paul Mauriat and Ray Conniff are Rock artists

Well I figured since I had already mentioned several artists in those genres (in my posts) that still work today I didn't need to include a list of people from those genres that are so clearly alive. Also they are rock sub-genres like prog, not moods, but are not exclusive from moods of the performers, listeners or sounds. Anyways if you so desire I've included some examples of people in each genre that work or still work.

Most of the ones you mention are not related with Rock, but even in that case, a handfull of artists don't make a genre alive and growing.

You know how to discover if a genre is alive and growing?

Check the next post for space reasons

Iván

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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 21:31

This is what you see when a genre is alive and growing, this bands have been added to Prog Archives only since the last July 18 2007:

http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3131 - jazz
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3132 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3133 - folk
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3134 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3135 - related
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3136 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3137 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3138 - related
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3139 - crossover
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3140 - folk
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3142 - electronic
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3143 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3144 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3145 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3146 - zeuhl
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3147 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3148 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3149 - folk
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3150 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3151 - folk
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3152 - kraut
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3153 - kraut
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3154 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3155 - kraut
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3156 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3157 - avant
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3158 - folk
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3159 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3160 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3161 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3162 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3163 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3164 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3165 - related
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3166 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3167 - proto
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3168 - proto
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3169 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3170 - metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3171 - kraut
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3172 - folk
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3173 - electronic (recommended!)
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3174 - metal (fantastic album they released this year! must hear)
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3175 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3176 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3177 - post-rock
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3077 - in art-rox
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3078 - in art-rocks
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3079 - in psych/space rocks
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3080 - in post-rock's (what a name....)
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3081 -
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3075 - Maserati* http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3075 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3075 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3075 -
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3073 - As The Poets Affirm*
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3072 - Envy*
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3071 - Lebanon*
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3070 - To-Mera*
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3068 - Epica*
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3082 - Illogicist
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3083 - Gösta Berlings Saga*
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3084 - Mountain Men Anonymous*
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3085 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3086 - in kraut
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3087 - in post
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3088 - in post
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3089 - in metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3090 - in art
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3091 - in proto
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3092 - in post
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3093 - in post
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3094 - in avant
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3095 - in avant (an Estonian band, by the way)
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3096 - Tracer AMC* - Experimental/Post-Rock
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3097 - Non Credo* - RIO/AVANT-prog
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3098 - Malmberg, Eric - Progressive Electronic
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3099 - McLuhan - Jazz-Rock
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3100 - Darkwater – Metal
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3101 - Yolk - RIO/Avant-prog
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3102 - Greylevel - Psychedelic/Space Rock http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3101 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3099 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3098 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3098 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3098 - http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3097 -
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3103 - Toe. - Experimental/Post-Rock
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3104 - The Third Ending - Art Rock
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3105 - Capharnaüm - Art Rock
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3106 - Altered States - RIO/Avant-prog
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3109 - Alrune Rod* - Art Rock

Source: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31506&KW=latest&PN=15 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31506&KW=latest&PN=15 and http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31506&KW=latest&PN=16 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31506&KW=latest&PN=16

And I'm leaving many bands without being copied because I'm tiresd to add individual listings.

So, when you get similar lists, you can affirm a genre is alive and growing

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 21:54

^ sorry to interrupt guys, but Punk is very much alive, just not at a commercial level. I don't know about the rest of the world, but certainly in the UK in every school there will be two or three groups of 12 year old kids who get together and thrash out Punk songs in their dad's garage. Obviously as they get older and learn to play more than 4 chords their music gets more sophisticated and diverse, but they all seem to start as Punk.

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What?

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 22:00

darqdean wrote:

^ sorry to interrupt guys, but Punk is very much alive, just not at a commercial level. I don't know about the rest of the world, but certainly in the UK in every school there will be two or three groups of 12 year old kids who get together and thrash out Punk songs in their dad's garage. Obviously as they get older and learn to play more than 4 chords their music gets more sophisticated and diverse, but they all seem to start as Punk.

Yes Darq, but I believe we are talking about proffesional bands not kids learning.

Some maybe start playing Rock Around the Clock, but that doesn't mean Bill Halley & The Comets music is alive today.

Iván

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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 22:25

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Yes Darq, but I believe we are talking about proffesional bands not kids learning.

Some maybe start playing Rock Around the Clock, but that doesn't mean Bill Halley & The Comets music is alive today.

Iván

I take your point. In our town (~20K people) there are at least 6 Punk bands that gig regularily but even if they were the greatest Punk band that ever walked the earth they would never get signed. Then the same would be true if they were playing Prog - major labels are not signing punk or prog bands, and like it or not, most prog bands are not full-time professionals.

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What?

Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 22:48

I teach guitar to young teens in America, about 80% want to play punk or very similar to punk.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 23:20

Darq, Easy Money: i get your pioints, i'm learning guitar (never too old) and found learning Punk is easier than almost any other genre, it's simple and you don't have to be bored repeating the same scales I did whjen learning piano several decades ago.

For a pupil it's very rewarding to play something you actually recognize, no matter how elemental it is, but the question is...How many of those kids really form a Proffesional or at least barely known Punk band?

Most of them emigrate to other genres.

BTW Guys: I'm impressed i didn't believed when I saw almost 100 bands were added in less than 2 months, it's a lot!!!!

Iván

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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 14 2007 at 23:59

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Most of them emigrate to other genres.

BTW Guys: I'm impressed i didn't believed when I saw almost 100 bands were added in less than 2 months, it's a lot!!!!

Iván

I'm not sure where a lot of the kids I work with will end up, probably a lot will get distracted by career, marriage or some kind of criminal behaviour and never play in a real band. It has been nice to see some of my students move into music that is more creative such as System of a Down, who also write some decent lyrics too. It was also nice to find one of my older students from the early 90s on myspace recently with a band that was kind of punky, but very smart and creative too.

Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 15 2007 at 10:57

Easy Money wrote:

I'm not sure where a lot of the kids I work with will end up, probably a lot will get distracted by career, marriage or some kind of criminal behaviour and never play in a real band. It has been nice to see some of my students move into music that is more creative such as System of a Down, who also write some decent lyrics too. It was also nice to find one of my older students from the early 90s on myspace recently with a band that was kind of punky, but very smart and creative too.

Believe me Easy Money, sometimes it's a blessing not to know how your pupils ended.

Being Perú a small market of proffessionals, it's hard to see some of my most brillianjt students ending as ambulance chasers in the best of the cases or as cab drivers because there's no room for almost 50,000 lawyers in Lima.

Of course some end in very good positions, but hardly a few if not a handfull remembers their ideals of helping people who need, I don't ask them to work for free but at least to donate a couple hours a week (I do it on a church) to help abandoned mothers to receive something from the fathers of their children, being a Catholic Church I can't give advice about divorce in tjhose serssions because it's not accepted.

Iván

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Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 17:12

Well I was going to reply and keep this argument going, but you keep ignoring good chunks of what I've written and mixing up certain parts with other things so this seems useless. Not to mention I don't really want to spend another hour replying. And I'm sure you feel likewise.

I do however want to point out Darqdean's post about there being tons of punk bands. Its true there are, and many of them do work at local levels and do everything themselves. NO they aren't pros, but that doesn't matter. If a punk band was pro they would be called Toto and not the Sex Pistols. Aside from that its about the music isn't it? Not status.

Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 18:01

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Why is it a fashion please? Because you say it?

Your only argument has been Prog is a fashion as ecery ghenre because some people like it.

EMO and Rap are much younger than Prog, I don't know about the other bands you mention, their sales, popularity, etc.

None of them is pure Punk

The Addicts are catalogued as Rock with absolutely no information

The Exploited are more metal than Punk

The Damned started as a Punk band, they went Goth and ended being a dance band, their last album in 2002 (5 years ago) was described by Rat Scabies (Member of the band) as a mix of Goth and Art Rock

UK Subs are an exception, but not sure if they release new material since 1996

Dillinger Four are Pop band with influence of Punk, that's not even remotely close to the roots or esence of Punk

Sonic Youth are Indie, Alternative, anything but Punk

Richard Hell is a surviving Punk, but in more than a decade hasn't released anything new