The genre within the genre within the gen - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

el böthy

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336

Topic: The genre within the genre within the gen
Posted: June 22 2007 at 22:14

the genre within the genre within... etc

You know how sometimes the whole genre´s thing just makes us forget about the music? Tagging, tagging and more tagging, just makes things sad... well... those arguments are all very nice... lets forget them!

SO, here the idea of this topic is to make a total distription of a band, tagging it, but not "superficially", but going really all the way, in making the distingtion from it with other bands... as I dont know if I have expressed myself correctly, Ill show with an example!

Emerson, Lake & Palmer

"Modern classical symphonic progressive rock trio"

Opeth

"Melodic death progressive metal"

... get the idea??? Ok, you´re next!

"You want me to play what, Robert?"

Dim

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890

Posted: June 22 2007 at 22:53

Well, how about we call ELP symphonic prog, and we call Opeth progressive metal?

rileydog22 View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 24 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 8844

Posted: June 22 2007 at 22:53

No.

el böthy

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336

Posted: June 23 2007 at 00:04

I hate you both

"You want me to play what, Robert?"

Speakerfish View Drop Down

Forum Groupie

Joined: January 13 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 83

Posted: June 23 2007 at 01:44

Yes: Symphonic rock-ish epic-stuffs with-jazzy-leanings-at-times.

Dissonance; subtle harmonic dissonance
Contemplating and completing the negative space
Romantic symphonies left on the floodplains

Ricochet

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301

Posted: June 23 2007 at 01:46

You shouldn't mix the "genre" with the "style".

Obviously mixing it leads to some of the main impression that we're tagging like hell the music we listen and hear "as something", then describe it.

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838

Posted: June 23 2007 at 03:36

what is symphonic..... we have people here who think that Jon Lord's solo albums aren't symphonic LOL

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21598

Posted: June 23 2007 at 03:38

You should check out my website ... there you can tag the artists, albums and tracks just like you describe here, el böthy.

Here are the current top albums of 2007 as an example:

1	Porcupine Tree - Fear of a Blank Planet magnificent (9.4 / 13) Genre: Melancholic/Concept Modern Prog Rock/Independent
2	Neal Morse - Sola Scriptura magnificent (9.2 / 6) Genre: Christian/Symphonic Modern Prog Rock
3	Lazuli - En Avant Doute masterpiece (9.6 / 2) Genre: Weird/Quirky Modern Partially Prog Independent
4	Dream Theater - Systematic Chaos excellent (9.0 / 5) Genre: Quirky/Melodic Modern Prog Metal
5	Grayceon - Grayceon magnificent (9.5 / 1) Genre: Prog Metal
6	Beardfish - Sleeping in Traffic: Part One magnificent (9.4 / 1) Genre: Eclectic/Melodic Modern Prog Rock
7	Thought Chamber - Angular Perceptions magnificent (9.4 / 1) Genre: Quirky/Melodic Modern Prog Metal
8	John Zorn - Six Litanies For Heliogabalus magnificent (9.4 / 1) Genre: Weird/Quirky Prog Independent/Metal/Jazz
9	Devin Townsend - Ziltoid the Omniscient magnificent (9.1 / 2) Genre: Weird Modern Prog Speed Metal
10	Threshold - Dead Reckoning magnificent (9.1 / 2) Genre: Melodic Modern Prog Metal

Release Polls

Listened to:

febus

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: January 23 2007
Location: Orlando-Usa
Status: Offline
Points: 4312

Posted: June 23 2007 at 09:28

What if we just listen to the music and enjoy it and stop all those pseudo intellectual masturbations

Ricochet

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301

Posted: June 23 2007 at 09:30

febus wrote:

What if we just listen to the music and enjoy it and stop all those pseudo intellectual masturbations

VERY strong word, there's no disrespect, disregard, abuse or insolite meaning in having an impression on what the music, by default, expresses to you. It's quite natural to think of something, of something, upon a music touching you, technically, expressively, spiritually...so on.

Of course, there's the tranquil joy of music being listened and adores in a relaxed way and an ease...and that's a master human feeling too. Cool

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838

Posted: June 23 2007 at 09:35

febus wrote:

What if we just listen to the music and enjoy it and stop all those pseudo intellectual masturbations

or better yet..... let those who don't have the mental facilities to masturbate.. just listen to it and let the whole basis of prog... stimultating thought.. you know..thinking, pass you by. LOL

el böthy

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336

Posted: June 23 2007 at 15:00

And here I thought it would be fun... but no... Cry

"You want me to play what, Robert?"

The Doctor View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543

Posted: June 23 2007 at 15:08

febus wrote:

What if we just listen to the music and enjoy it and stop all those pseudo intellectual masturbations

I agree completely. In fact, I say we close down the forums on prog archives because surely all of this discussion of music and other interesting topics serves no useful purpose.

I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21598

Posted: June 23 2007 at 15:11

el böthy wrote:

And here I thought it would be fun... but no... Cry

Just try to ignore the negative comments and focus on the constructive ones! Approve

Release Polls

Listened to:

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: June 23 2007 at 15:42

micky wrote:

what is symphonic..... we have people here who think that Jon Lord's solo albums aren't symphonic LOL

Yes Micky, we are the ones who don't believe Jon Lord is Symphonic, most of the people who participate in youir thread about Jon Lord believed he's not Symphonic (A lot believe he's not even Prog).

When you were in charge of Art Rock we respected your opinions and your decisions in the genres you were in charge of, respect our's, you resigned to the Symphonic team for Art Rock and RPI (To which you also apparently resigned).

Without ythe need of doing it (You never asked anybody outside your team before you added a band, you just added it), we explained our reasons, Bob made a whole explanation album by album:

Before I forget – hard rock, classical, blues, symphonic, jazz, theatrical, pop, big band
Beyond the notes – symphonic, classical/orchestral, jazz, theatrical, pop
First of the big bands – big band, blues, jazz, folk, rock
Gemini Suite – symphonic, jazz/fusion
Pictured within – pop, classical/orchestral, theatrical
Sarabande – symphonic, classical/orchestral, jazz/fusion, dance/Latin
Windows – opera, classical, theatrical, fusion/funk
Hoochie coochie – blues, funk, rock, country

We not only shouted like you Jon Lord is Symphonic and you must accept him, we checked album by album and explained with details why we didn't believed Jon Lord belongs in Symphonic.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

1.- IMHO He's Neo Classical more than Prog.

2.- His music gathers influences from Neo Classical, Jazz, Rock and a bit of Prog.

3.- His OFFICIAL site qualifies him as Classical.

4.- His last two albums are being sold as Classical not as Prog.

5.- Only Proggnosis says he's Prog.

6.- GEPR, Progressive Ears, Ground & Sky, Progressor, Manticornio, La Caja de Música doesn't consider him Prog.

7.- Gnosis makes a qualification of 84 voters, more than 70 give 0 as a rating, this means they don't consider his albums Prog.

Iván

So please, let us work, we're doing our work as a team and I believe we're advancing in order and some members INCLUDING YOU proclaimed we were doing a good job:

micky wrote:

Excellent Ivan.... I figured this is where you were going.. and this is where I think we all should go.

Art Rock and RPI will go the same way down the road

here.. have a couple of clappies.. you deserve them

Clap

And then you insisted:

micky wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Thanks Micky but not, the clappies are for THE SYMPHONIC TEAM, this is a group work that is only about to start, but BOB and HT have done as much as me, HT who doesn't like to drive, has been walking all day long (And working) with his IPOD to listen samples and key bands, BOB has been sacrificing time with his son who´s leaving for College and managing to work and still check all the material and bands.

It's been hard, but it's going to be harder...what the hell, we´re used to it.

Iván

once again.. this seems to be a pattern.. not inteneded as a slight towards the team LOL

once your boss.. always your boss I guess hahahhah.

Good job symphomaniacs.. it's obvious you all put a lot of work into it. Have a couple of clappies yourselfs..

Clap

+ a bonus clappie Clap

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34538&KW=structure

It's easy to take your position and criticize what the Owners, Administrators and teams do, but it's harder to finish a work you started, if we receive lemons we make lemonade, but we don't leave an incomplete work behind, we finish what we started.

Better worry about finishing something before trying to force the people who are working to do as you want.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 23 2007 at 15:47

Dim

Prog Reviewer

Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
Status: Offline
Points: 6890

Posted: June 23 2007 at 15:43

el böthy wrote:

And here I thought it would be fun... but no... Cry

The people usually get sour if they have nowhere else to post

The Whistler View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: August 30 2006
Location: LA, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 7113

Posted: June 24 2007 at 02:55

"Awesomest band ever" -Tull

"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838

Posted: June 24 2007 at 03:58

ahhh... to tie a couple of threads together Ivan... let me say what others would like to say.. and I will say of course..... take a valium and give it a rest. Who defines what is or is not prog... symphonic. or whatever. You don't... the listener does. It is the weakness of this site where a select few with their preconceived notions of what is and is not something rule. That is the underlying reason why I pushed RPI.. to eliminate that subjective view and classification of prog on musical terms. You don't know what is or is not symphonic any better than me or anyone here. That is why these subs are a source of ridicule elsewhere... and even here as was the point of the OP. You have Kansas in symphonic for god's sake hahhaha. Yet said an artist who set out to purposefully fuse classical and rock...wasn't symphonic. and you dare say this site is losing credibility... the only one losing it is yourself I dare say. LOL

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557

Posted: June 24 2007 at 11:42

micky wrote:

ahhh... to tie a couple of threads together Ivan... let me say what others would like to say.. and I will say of course..... take a valium and give it a rest. Who defines what is or is not prog... symphonic. or whatever. You don't... the listener does. It is the weakness of this site where a select few with their preconceived notions of what is and is not something rule.

That's why the owners created teams, some of us work still omhn hem, others abandon them when the hard work starts, that's the difference

That is the underlying reason why I pushed RPI.. to eliminate that subjective view and classification of prog on musical terms. You don't know what is or is not symphonic any better than me or anyone here.

Well you were a proud member (At least un name when you were not "on license") fo several monts of the SYMPHONIC SUB-GENRE TEAM, you added and retired bands from the saun-gentre.

You proudly show the banner of Art Rock Specialist (Another name for member opf the Art Rock team) and RPI Team (Well, still RPI doesn't eist).

So you were not only part of this teams you now attack (A you attack the owners, Administrators and Collaborators), it's at least very hypocritical of you...you will answer you're no longer part of them, maybe because the hard work started.

Maybe I don't know more about Symphonic than many people here, but for that reason WE HAVE A TEAM, of members, most of the time the Collaborators and Administrators agree with what we do, (As you did but now you forget and omit), I wrote the Symphonivc Prog definition with the approbal of the Collaborators (After being posted for some time and there were no objections, a definition you also praised ).....So at leastt someyhing I know, and the most impoirtant, I doon't abandon my team when the work starts.

That is why these subs are a source of ridicule elsewhere... and even here as was the point of the OP. You have Kansas in symphonic for god's sake hahhaha.

YOU VOTED FOR THE INCLUSION OF KANSAS AS A SYMPHONIC TEAM MEMBER, YOU NEVER DOUBTED ABOUT THEM WHEN YOU WHERE A MEMBER OF THE TEAM, NOW YOU SPEAK, BECAUSE YOUR FAVORITE SPORTS IS TO CRITICIZE WHAT OTHERS DO INSTEAD OF WORKING, LET ME REFRESH YOUR MEMORY TO SEE ABOUT YOUR CREDIBILITY:

We only added two bands from other genres, but this must be discussed with the team Leaders in the cases where there is one:

Kansas (3 votes yes - 1 vote no): Despite the hard Rock and Country influence in their music, we find that the structure, at least until Monolith and after an AOR period that ended with Power is mainly Symphonic, so this will be almost the exact case of bands like Genesis, but the most important albums from their career and the biggest number are part of or the Symphonic Sub-genre.

With the votes of Ivan_Melgar-M, Cesar Inca, Micky and Salmacis

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21805&KW=First

So if you change your mind so often, don't blame me YOU VOTED FOR KANSAS TO BE MOVED TO SYMPHONIC AND NOW YOU DARE TO OPPOSE TO THAT AFTER HAVING SUPPORTED FOR A YEAR JUST TO HAVE AN ARGUMENT

Now, I explained the reasons why Kansas is here, AND YOU SAID NOTHING, but to refresh your memory I will quote them:

The case of Kansas was clear for us:

The AOR fame is wrong (At least until after Monolith), they were never an AOR band (During their long Prog era), the cause of this mistake is because they reached their commercial peak in the late 70's, were from United States and shared the charts with STYX which is AOR.
If somebody who listened only "Dust in the Wind" believes Kansas is AOR, I can understand it, but Kansas was born in 1971 and released their first album in 1974, that's 4 years before AOR (As we know it) existed.
Kansas blends at least three main elements, Symphonic structure, Hard Rock arrangements and some Country Music touches, but the main component of most of their albums is SYMPHONIC.
Kansas released the following Prog Albums:
1. Kansas: 100% Prog - Symphonic structure
2. Song for America : 100% Prog - Symphonic structure
3. Masque: 100% Prog - Symphonic structure
4. Leftoverture: 100% Prog - Symphonic structure
5. Point of Know Return: 90 % Prog (Only Dust in the Wind isn't Prog) - 100% Symphonic structure.
6. Monolith: 100% Prog (Lower quality but Prog) - Symphonic Structure
7. In the Spirit of Things: Mostly Prog - Symphonic structure
8. Freaks of Nature: Partially Prog - Symphonic structure
9. Somewhere to Elsewhere: 100% Prog - Symphoinic structure
Live albums:
1. Two for the Show - 100% Prog - Symphonic structure
2. Live at the Whiskey: 100% Prog - Symphonic structure
3. Live, Dust in the Wind: 100% Prog - Symphonic structure
4. King Biscuit: 100% Prog - Symphonic structure
5. Always Never the Same: 100% Prog - Symphonic structure with Symphony Orchestra
6. Device, Voice Drum: 90% Prog - Symphonic structure
Non Prog Albums:
1. Audio Visions: Pomp Rock - Still mainly Symphonic structure
2. Vinyl Confessions: Christian Pop - AOR structure
3. Drastic Measures: Christian Pop - AOR structure
4. Power: Rock - Eclectic structure, tried to return to the past but not ready yet
We can see that 75.33% of their discography is Prog and only 26.6% is non Prog, the percentages are obvious.

In Kansas (Pioneers of Prog) the Hard Rock and Country elements were only arrangements, they were doing the same Symphonic than in UK but with a USA flavour that made it richer

So as you see I argument what the team decided, you only shout I want Jon Lord (A barely Prog artist) in Symphomnic because "it's a no btrainer" but you don't have a single argument to support his addition....There's the difference.

Yet said an artist who set out to purposefully fuse classical and rock...wasn't symphonic. and you dare say this site is losing credibility...

Are you sure you know what Sympghonic is? Do you believe every artist who fuses Rock with Classical Music is Symphonic? Do you believe an artist who has:

Before I forget – hard rock, classical, blues, symphonic, jazz, theatrical, pop, big band
Beyond the notes – symphonic, classical/orchestral, jazz, theatrical, pop
First of the big bands – big band, blues, jazz, folk, rock
Gemini Suite – symphonic, jazz/fusion
Pictured within – pop, classical/orchestral, theatrical
Sarabande – symphonic, classical/orchestral, jazz/fusion, dance/Latin
Wndows – opera, classical, theatrical, fusion/funk
Hoochie coochie – blues, funk, rock, country

Only one partialñly Symphonic alnbum, maybe two, but focus on Neo Classical, Jazz, POP, Fusion, Blues, Funk Country is Symphonic????

You should check your priorities Micky because I believe you're weong.

the only one losing it is yourself I dare say. LOL

Part of credinility is

Staying with your team when the hard band by band woirk is done, not only to shout for a year and leave when the work starts.
To be consequebnt with your decisions, youi voted for Kansas and now you protest after a year of silence.

When and if M@X and/or the Administrators tell me that I will worry, but if you say so...honestly I don't care.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 24 2007 at 11:58

micky

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838

Posted: June 24 2007 at 11:50

wow..... and I thought I had a problem with being concise....

just tell me to stick it up my ass Ivan...it's much shorter.. and easier to read hahahha.

I'm assuming that is the gist of what you said... LOL

I need to get back to learning about stress drop and stress rise intonations. Wink