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Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414

Posted: June 13 2007 at 04:50

debrewguy wrote:

OK NOW, please - no more quoting previous quotes. I've seen good arguements on both sides, but now I can hardly follow you guys. And this is from a member known for his long posts. Confused

Problems is that we're hooked. These types of friendly debates are worse than cocaine.

IVNORD wrote:

you get to meet the people, if it interest you. It might give you guilt trips also, though!! It makes me depressed. I don't enjoy human suffering. >> Closing eyes won't make it go away, though

And it is complete fallacy too which is it? the trick or my trust in economy? >> The trick >> how could it have been any different coming from the old atheist heathen I am!

No wonder I don't want kids to grow so how do you suppress their growth?

>> by not making any?

as to avoid having them live in such a screwed up world. On a serious note, that's all you have in life - the continuity of life. Just try to explain to them what your stand is. The problem is that my pragmatic stand may be more viable than your idealistic one. Easier to explain too. So telling them that the world is a polluted garbage can, and that your generation is letting it become that way without budging is easier?

Edited by Sean Trane - June 13 2007 at 04:52

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

The T

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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493

Posted: June 13 2007 at 13:10

There's no freedom of speech if one gets confused with all these colors!

I was going to say something, but I gave up....

debrewguy

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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596

Posted: June 13 2007 at 13:13

Saw an interesting documentary on Chavez last night on Radio Canada. As with their english sister channel CBC, they presented a very balanced view of the subject. The accusations of growing authoritariasm are very well explained by a Venezuelan commentator (sorry, didn't get his name). But they did include a Venezuelan family who are divided as to Chavez. As has been mentioned here, the main factor is the appeal to the poor that some of Chavez' policies, such as the Mercal stores. But they also spoke of the Tascan list (I hope I spelled Tascan correctly). According to the documentary, there is a list that has the name of some 4 million Venezuelan citizens who voted against Chavez. One person interviewed claimed that he was refused credit without any reason, only to find out later that his presence on this list was the single reason.
As an admittedly non-expert person on this whole matter, I think it seems like Chavez wants to be the "enlightened" & "benefient" dictator. Whether Chavez actually is well meaning is hard to decipher from his actions re : censorship & centralizing power in his hands. I do hope for the best for this country's people, but history is only too full of people who meant well but eventually get corrupted by absolute power.

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

IVNORD

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Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 13 2007 at 17:59

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

you get to meet the people, if it interest you. It might give you guilt trips also, though!! It makes me depressed. I don't enjoy human suffering. >> Closing eyes won't make it go away, though

And it is complete fallacy too which is it? the trick or my trust in economy? >> The trick >> how could it have been any different coming from the old atheist heathen I am! Indeed, what a fool I am!

I don't buy this conspiracy theory. It would be unreasonably expensive to stage 9/11, the two ensuing wars (especially Iraq) are a drag on the economy. Too irrational for the big money. I on the other hand think this conspiracy is much more than plausible. What would be the raeson for it? to aggravate the US population to support the war with Afghanistan? No matter what the economists say, Quite the opposite. THe economists say a war is beneficial to the economy, don't listen to them. I say it's not as the economy produces predetermined waste (weapons). A short war may be ok but a protracted one is devastating. In its fifth year we are printing huge amounts of paper money to pay for it. That's the inflation, that's why oil prices shot throughthe roof, not because of greed of some mystical speculators but because the dollar loses its value by the minute. the arms/weapons industry is always pushing for war. If there was none, they'd stop selling weapons. THey always have government arms procurement not to go hungry. They sure love to produce more of it, but it's just one sector benefiting from it. And only to some extent, as inflation eventually sticks its teeth in their money too. A big war always triggers a tremendous rise in inflation. Look at WW II and Vietnam. The sector is an incredible share of the US economy It's big but not as big as you're trying to portray it. and a great consumer of petrol. Those military vehicules are not concerned by pollution norms and have little to worry about any kind of legislation for ergonomy or environment laws >> they are absolved from this. It would be nice to implement emission standards for Abrams tanks.

No wonder I don't want kids to grow so how do you suppress their growth?

>> by not making any?

That's a radical solution. And you call yourself a conservative?

And that they should follow suit and start getting used to wearing full-faced mask in order to breath without dying. I know I just switched to environmental issues, but the economy doesn't care more for nature than humans. It's a big problem. That was one of the reasons I voted for Gore in 2000. Although I doubt he could do anything anyway. Das Kapital at work.

Edited by IVNORD - June 13 2007 at 18:38

IVNORD

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Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 13 2007 at 18:41

debrewguy wrote:

Saw an interesting documentary on Chavez last night on Radio Canada. As with their english sister channel CBC, they presented a very balanced view of the subject. The accusations of growing authoritariasm are very well explained by a Venezuelan commentator (sorry, didn't get his name). But they did include a Venezuelan family who are divided as to Chavez. As has been mentioned here, the main factor is the appeal to the poor that some of Chavez' policies, such as the Mercal stores. But they also spoke of the Tascan list (I hope I spelled Tascan correctly). According to the documentary, there is a list that has the name of some 4 million Venezuelan citizens who voted against Chavez. One person interviewed claimed that he was refused credit without any reason, only to find out later that his presence on this list was the single reason.
As an admittedly non-expert person on this whole matter, I think it seems like Chavez wants to be the "enlightened" & "benefient" dictator. Whether Chavez actually is well meaning is hard to decipher from his actions re : censorship & centralizing power in his hands. I do hope for the best for this country's people, but history is only too full of people who meant well but eventually get corrupted by absolute power.

Power is a one way ticket. Just wait and see

markosherrera View Drop Down

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Joined: October 01 2006
Location: World
Status: Offline
Points: 3252

Posted: June 13 2007 at 19:46

IVNORD wrote:

[QUOTE=debrewguy]Saw an interesting documentary on Chavez last night on Radio Canada. As with their english sister channel CBC, they presented a very balanced view of the subject. The accusations of growing authoritariasm are very well explained by a Venezuelan commentator (sorry, didn't get his name). But they did include a Venezuelan family who are divided as to Chavez. As has been mentioned here, the main factor is the appeal to the poor that some of Chavez' policies, such as the Mercal stores. But they also spoke of the Tascan list (I hope I spelled Tascan correctly). According to the documentary, there is a list that has the name of some 4 million Venezuelan citizens who voted against Chavez. One person interviewed claimed that he was refused credit without any reason, only to find out later that his presence on this list was the single reason.
As an admittedly non-expert person on this whole matter, I think it seems like Chavez wants to be the "enlightened" & "benefient" dictator. Whether Chavez actually is well meaning is hard to decipher from his actions re : censorship & centralizing power in his hands. I do hope for the best for this country's people, but history is only too full of people who meant well but eventually get corrupted by absolute power.

Power is a one way ticket. Just wait and see

[/Q

THE LIST IS ---Tascon LIST ----IF YOU APPÈAR IN THIS LIST,YOU CANT WORK IN STATE COMPANYS,OR CANT MAKE CONTRACT WITH STATE,YOU CANT WORK IN THE PETROLEUM COMPANY,YOU CANT TEACH IN SCHOOLS OR UNIVERSITIES OF THE STATE,YOU CANT RECEIVE CREDITS ]etc etc you are in a black list,you are considered enemie,or against the nation

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414

Posted: June 14 2007 at 08:07

IVNORD wrote:

No matter what the economists say, Quite the opposite. THe economists say a war is beneficial to the economy, don't listen to them. I say it's not as the economy produces predetermined waste (weapons). A short war may be ok but a protracted one is devastating. In its fifth year we are printing huge amounts of paper money to pay for it. That's the inflation, that's why oil prices shot through the roof, not because of greed of some mystical speculators but because the dollar loses its value by the minute. >> The US never counted on a slow war!!! They are always so sure of their weaponry that they forget the people are fighting wars. Had Bush ever thought the Iraq war would still happen today, never would the neo-cons gone there. Their goals are backfiring on them. BTW increasing Oils Prices are benefitting the oil companies. They have never made bigger profits since the Iraq war.

and a great consumer of petrol. Those military vehicules are not concerned by pollution norms and have little to worry about any kind of legislation for ergonomy or environment laws >> they are absolved from this. It would be nice to implement emission standards for Abrams tanks. >> this is also why I am pessimist and not confident in the future. Even if all Chinese, Europeans, Americans, Indians, Russians citizens were to minimizez their impact on the environment, it suffices one industrial accident or one war to ruin all the efforts made by the public. And you know wars and accidents will happen more often.

No wonder I don't want kids to grow so how do you suppress their growth?

>> by not making any?

That's a radical solution. And you call yourself a conservative?

>> you sleazebag

!!! BTW, conservatives want woen to make as many kids as possible!!!! Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen!!!

For kids: You can also go through the Ayn Rand theories and make them equal by Hatchet, Axe and Saw (the trees)

Edited by Sean Trane - June 14 2007 at 08:16

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

IVNORD

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 14 2007 at 09:33

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

No matter what the economists say, Quite the opposite. THe economists say a war is beneficial to the economy, don't listen to them. I say it's not as the economy produces predetermined waste (weapons). A short war may be ok but a protracted one is devastating. In its fifth year we are printing huge amounts of paper money to pay for it. That's the inflation, that's why oil prices shot through the roof, not because of greed of some mystical speculators but because the dollar loses its value by the minute. >> The US never counted on a slow war!!! True They are always so sure of their weaponry that they forget the people are fighting wars. Correct Had Bush ever thought the Iraq war would still happen today, never would the neo-cons gone there. True (except for the neo-cons, see above) Their goals are backfiring on them. Correct. And not only at them, You are affected as well, you just hide your head in the sand. BTW increasing Oils Prices are benefitting the oil companies. They have never made bigger profits since the Iraq war. Yes and no. It's very transient. THose profits are inflated by the deflated dollar. It will fall into place when the prices level off across the board. It hasd happend before in the 70-80's

the arms/weapons industry is always pushing for war. If there was none, they'd stop selling weapons. THey always have government arms procurement not to go hungry. They sure love to produce more of it, but it's just one sector benefiting from it. And only to some extent, as inflation eventually sticks its teeth in their money too. A big war always triggers a tremendous rise in inflation. Look at WW II and Vietnam. The sector is an incredible share of the US economy It's big but not as big as you're trying to portray it.>>> you forget the undeclared subcontractors producing electronics modules without even knowing what's their uses. No I didn't. It's all accounted for. The govenment's official expenditures for defense before the war were around $300B annualy. Add roughly another 100B (even 300B, huge number) from appropriations for social services, housing, education, energy, interior and any other freakin department spent on the military under different programs. THe economy at the time was churning $$12T annyaly. So it's less than 5%. The Soviet Union was spending around 65-75% of its GDP on defense (in my estimate, official numbers were about 18%) and they went belly up because of that. If Lockheed was to close down(bankrupcy) and lose 1000 jobs (for ex), there would be another 2500 job losses (still an example) directly related to it. You're right, but see above.

No wonder I don't want kids to grow so how do you suppress their growth?

>> by not making any?

That's a radical solution. And you call yourself a conservative?

>> you sleazebag

!!! f**k you!

BTW, conservatives want woen to make as many kids as possible!!!! to create more workers/consumers Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen!!!

that's the old radical talk. Do you still call yourself a conservative?

For kids: You can also go through the Ayn Rand theories and make them equal by Hatchet, Axe and Saw (the trees) To my shame, never read her. Heard a lot, but don't have time. Besides, I don't expect her to have a huge impact on my way of thinking (maybe that's why not in a rush to read her)

I know I just switched to environmental issues, but the economy doesn't care more for nature than humans. It's a big problem. That was one of the reasons I voted for Gore in 2000. Although I doubt he could do anything anyway. Das Kapital at work. >> I wasn't aware that Gore had talked of environment on 1999 campaign. I can't counter your statement as I didn not watch the campaign closely. Ithink he's just reconverted his poltical career to fill the environment void that US parties were avoiding. Back in 1995 I read an article in the Wall Street Journal on Gore and his intellectual gatherings in his Washingtom residence. Along the way they dropped a few words about his stand on the evironment. Later I heard the same here and there, he had an image of a proponent of stricter regulations. Of course, he ahdn't done anything, and his latest exploits are in the same vein.

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414

Posted: June 14 2007 at 15:01

IVNORD wrote:

(this is why the fabrication of proofs was already known before the US would prodce them), even if Afganistan was majorly important (because of the Talibans who were indeed the culprits by hiding Bin Laden), but also the US needed a pipiline from Kazakstan to Pakistan to avoid Iran. The pipeline, as far as I know, is being built thru Turkey or Georgia/Armenia (I may be mistaken though). MUch more stable a region. That's for the Caspian Sea oil (Azerbaidjian). Kazakstan oil would have to go thru Russian territory tp go to the Black Sea, whgich is exactly what the US don't want. >> Well I know there's still a plan togo through Afghanistan holding because the US is fuming that the Pipeline from Kazeakstan to China is being built. Problem of Afghanistan is the geography and unrest >> can't be controlled.

BTW, conservatives want woen to make as many kids as possible!!!! to create more workers/consumers Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen!!!

that's the old radical talk. Do you still call yourself a conservative? I repeat, you sleazebag

I like mine naked in bed (but not barefoot >> high heels and legwarmers are indeed welcome) but with a wallet full of big bills >> I'll take care of the kitchen and cooking

>> I wasn't aware that Gore had talked of environment on 1999 campaign. I can't counter your statement as I didn not watch the campaign closely. Neither did I since I wasn't concerned, but I must say that like the whole planet, everyone hoped he would pass, even if he was called Al Bore.

I think he's just reconverted his poltical career to fill the environment void that US parties were avoiding. Back in 1995 I read an article in the Wall Street Journal on Gore and his intellectual gatherings in his Washingtom residence. Along the way they dropped a few words about his stand on the evironment. Later I heard the same here and there, he had an image of a proponent of stricter regulations. Of course, he ahdn't done anything, and his latest exploits are in the same vein.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

Chus

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991

Posted: June 14 2007 at 19:20

markosherrera wrote:

Power is a one way ticket. Just wait and see

[/Q

It's true... read that my friends.

Also reminds me of a famous speech (at least famous around here) made by PDVSA president (I have to remind that PDVSA was nationalised by Chavez... so it's a "state" oil company) saying that he won't allow anyone but the ones defending the "revolutionary" process to work for the company, and that PDVSA was red, very red (roja, rojita). The irony lies when the company was nationalised, the motto was "PDVSA is now for all".... I didn't know that I wasn't part of the people

Another proof of discrimination:

Today, another protest stopped by national guards and police forces (which were more than 200 units... they like to repress pacific protests but don't like fighting crimes, and lest we forget Caracas has the largest crime rate in southamerica), just because we didn't get the permit from the mayor (a Chavecist, as if that wasn't enough proof)... ironically, this morning, without expressed permit, Chavecists were marching in that same route, while the police forces were watching them from the sidewalks.... talk about discrimination.

And given the magnitude of the protest... since when do we need permits to protest? it's our natural right, isn't it? we notified with great anticipation that the march would take place and our destiny.. we need nothing more but police forces to protect us... not to repress

Edited by Chus - June 14 2007 at 19:30

Jesus Gabriel

IVNORD

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Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 14 2007 at 20:37

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

>> no the real goal would be/is Iraq and its oil reserves colonialism? again? totally inefficient. That's why it was abandoned in the first place. Instead an obedient regime is installed (we call it neo-colonialism). Saddam was one of those until he broke the rules because of his macho ego. What really fumed the US was that Saddam hadapproached European countries to create a EuroDollar. I think when Bush heard of that he not onlypissed himself but sh*t himself as well. Never heard of that. THe golden dinar - yes, but this crap has been mulled for a while, pure idiocy. Saddam turned out to be too dangerous, we had to get rid of him. He didn't get the message after the first war. It was his own stupidity

(this is why the fabrication of proofs was already known before the US would prodce them), even if Afganistan was majorly important (because of the Talibans who were indeed the culprits by hiding Bin Laden), but also the US needed a pipiline from Kazakstan to Pakistan to avoid Iran. The pipeline, as far as I know, is being built thru Turkey or Georgia/Armenia (I may be mistaken though). MUch more stable a region. That's for the Caspian Sea oil (Azerbaidjian). Kazakstan oil would have to go thru Russian territory tp go to the Black Sea, whgich is exactly what the US don't want. That was Borat whonegotiated it with premier Bush >>

Their goals are backfiring on them. Correct. And not only at them, You are affected as well, you just hide your head in the sand>>> I'm not fooling myself one bit, my wallet reminds it to me twice a week. why twice a week? filling up your car? I don't get it >>> everytime I wish Bush dead by syphillis thru the arsehole. that's a cruel and unusual punishment. Your wallet must be raelly hurt

BTW increasing Oils Prices are benefitting the oil companies. They have never made bigger profits since the Iraq war. Yes and no. It's very transient. THose profits are inflated by the deflated dollar. It will fall into place when the prices level off across the board. It hasd happend before in the 70-80's Actually what's keeping the Europeans from real objections is that the low dollar is keeping theprice down, once it picks up again, it will hurt badly. It's the other way around - the European currencies will lose their value against the dollar. Once a new low is reached, it stays there, or else all the excess of the paper already printed should be taken out of circulation, and this will never happen. The price of oil will dance around $50, give or take; other prices will come up. Actually you didn't really see a huge jump in gasoline prices. How much was it in 2000? between $4 and $5 per gallon (3.84 liter)? So now it's $6-7, a 40% rise. We had it around $1, now it's over $3.

BTW, conservatives want woen to make as many kids as possible!!!! to create more workers/consumers Barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen!!!

that's the old radical talk. Do you still call yourself a conservative? I repeat, you sleazebag

I like mine naked in bed (but not barefoot >> high heels and legwarmers are indeed welcome) but with a wallet full of big bills >> I'll take care of the kitchen and cooking Sounds good to me. But on the second thought, the original proposal (pregnant, kitchen) isn't that bad either. Just add "mute" to that list. And don't argue with me, you never-been-married moron!

IVNORD

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 14 2007 at 20:45

Chus wrote:

Another proof of discrimination:

Hey Chus, it's not getting any better? And you're at it again. Just look at you friend Lech Walesa, he's doing fine ever since he stopped protesting. Of course the police don't like fighting criminals, it's dangerous. Peaceful demonstrators are much nicer people.

How are your studies? Take care yourself, really.

Chus

Prog Reviewer

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991

Posted: June 14 2007 at 21:02

IVNORD wrote:

Chus wrote:

Another proof of discrimination:

How are your studies? Take care yourself, really.

I always try to stay out of the front line to avoid confrontation. So don't worry about me, I'm following my heart but also my brain. I believe in this day and age protest can help a bit, at least it can show that we're not that easy to be dominated, and if I can make more bulk then I'll always try. Thanks for your concern, and studies are relatively good, I also try to stay focused on that, but of course I'm also bound to have these distractions, as any would in this situation.

Jesus Gabriel

IVNORD

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 14 2007 at 21:55

Chus wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

Chus wrote:

Another proof of discrimination:

How are your studies? Take care yourself, really.

Why dont you stop wasting your time altogether? Confrontation with the police may be a good physical exercise but boxing is safer. And protesting can help only those who know how to use it to their advantage. Again, Walesa comes to mind . He gained weight and he looks much more respectable and glossy than when he was protesting as a plain electrician.

Stick to your books. You will find it to be a much better use of yourtime later in life than these distractions. Just sharing experience...

Sean Trane View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414

Posted: June 16 2007 at 08:18

IVNORD wrote:

What really fumed the US was that Saddam hadapproached European countries to create a EuroDollar. I think when Bush heard of that he not onlypissed himself but sh*t himself as well. Never heard of that. I can tell you that this happened the whole of Exxon, Texaco managements shat their pants, and instantly decided ob Saddam's death. >> and they got it

I normally don't do this, but I had a few minutes to kill and was indeed curious to what was still said about the Europetro on the web

http://www.humanite.fr/journal/2000-11-01/2000-11-01-234066

http://vigirak.com/article.php3?id_article=88

Iran had taken up the idea too before getting into a fight with their Nuke program

http://www.williambowles.info/iran/petro_euro.html

I'm not saying that the following two links are worth taking at face value though, but there is somedifferent light shedding on the business >> but read the dates of the essay writings.

http://batr.org/view/040403.html

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html

THe golden dinar - yes, but this crap has been mulled for a while, pure idiocy. Saddam turned out to be too dangerous, we had to get rid of him. Again you make the point of WE as the US and not the world. >> then you wonder why 9/11 happens (not that I would support this in any kind of form)

That's for the Caspian Sea oil (Azerbaidjian). Kazakstan oil would have to go thru Russian territory tp go to the Black Sea, whgich is exactly what the US don't want. That was Borat who negotiated it with premier Bush >> please add a clown fave you clown

I'm not fooling myself one bit, my wallet reminds it to me twice a week. why twice a week? filling up your car? I don't get it >> yes you do, you understood it fine the first time around

>>> everytime I wish Bush dead by syphillis thru the arsehole. that's a cruel and unusual punishment. Your wallet must be raelly (as in rael-ly hurt >> no not that bad but it does anyway

) hurt. Even the worst tortures instilled on Dubya would not be cruel enough compated to what he's doing to this planet.

. Yeah, "muting" women is a normal wish for sanity and sanitary reasons >> I think the Talibans did that with a pieceof clothing called Burqas

. The problem is that you can't see whether they're cute under that stuff and it gets in the way for fondling purposes.

looks like we're running out of things to argue about.

Care to discuss the effects of Roman Empire economy policies in the Aboriginal cultural circles of the XIVth century?

Edited by Sean Trane - June 16 2007 at 08:42

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

IVNORD

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 16 2007 at 23:04

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I don’t really wonder why 9/11 happened. But I don’t think your innuendo that we interfere in others’ affairs reflects the reality fully. First, the notion that the US is exploiting the entire world while enjoying a glass of brandy and smoking a cigar as you learnt from political cartoons is not exactly right. Our wealth and riches don’t fall from the sky. We work our collective ass off to get the benefits we have. Once I talked to two saleswomen in Rome about our work habits telling them how I get up at 5:15 in the morning to leave my house at 5:55 to get to work by 8 am. They were in total disbelief while yawning slightly as it was quite an early hour for them at 10 in the morning, probably anticipating the midday siesta. In Iceland, a nice working couple absolutely couldn’t understand why it was a big deal for us to arrange for a 3 (consecutive) week vacation to travel thru Scandinavia as they have a mandatory 6-week in Iceland. And it’s in the summer only; two more weeks come in the winter (sure thing, it's cold and dark, you need a vacation). In Oslo I couldn’t get anything for breakfast at 7 am as everything was closed (mind you, a European capitol on a weekday?). We get what we get because we work hard. And along the way the rest of the world benefits too, directly and indirectly. We produce enough food to be self sustained and give away plenty. We create new technologies, which we gladly share with the rest of the world. We provide security to our European allies, so you could divert the funds you would have otherwise spent on defense to enjoy your socialist welfare states. But of course, it all comes with a price. We sell you all the stuff we make but you have to give us something in return. In case of Venezuaela (or the Arab countries) it’s oil, Brazil – coffee, etc. (Beguim – chocolate?) Your insinuations that we rip other countries off doesn’t hold water – it’s not our fault that they cant offer anything other than commodities. The market price of cocoa cannot be the same as that of a PC – one grows on trees, the other is a feat of engineering. So your insinuations that we have to give something for free to care for the world are goundless – why should we give away what we break our neck for? And why should we care for the sake of caring if nobody cares about us?

IVNORD

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 16 2007 at 23:53

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I normally don't do this, but I had a few minutes to kill and was indeed curious to what was still said about the Europetro on the web

http://www.humanite.fr/journal/2000-11-01/2000-11-01-234066

http://vigirak.com/article.php3?id_article=88

Iran had taken up the idea too before getting into a fight with their Nuke program

http://www.williambowles.info/iran/petro_euro.html

I'm not saying that the following two links are worth taking at face value though, but there is somedifferent light shedding on the business >> but read the dates of the essay writings.

http://batr.org/view/040403.html

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html

You confused the hell out of me. To be precise, there is a financial instrument called Eurodollar, but it has no connection to Saddam, so I correctly assumed you didn’t mean that. The fight for the right to the world currency is far from being something new. Why do you think Europe united (!) and produced the Euro? And why we keep minting pennies even thou the cost of the coin is two- to tree-times the value it represents? The Germans tried to make inroads with their D-Mark but it didn’t work as they had to dilute it because of their unification. At one point the Yen was a currency of choice in the Pacific Rim and Far East, but things went sour for them too with their never-ending recession. The unified Europe definitely holds much more weight to be a pretender. They make overtures to the Arabs and woo them for years. The Russians are talking about going PetroEuro for a while. The problem is we still are the most solid and stable economy in the world. It may change, a few more years if involvement in Iraq and… but the fight is certainly fierce, although I believe the use of military force is a very remote possibility. Diplomatic or economic pressure, other types of blackmail, bribery – that’s a more likely arsenal of weapons. It's too lucrative a prospect to have a power to create wealth so inexpensively, to get something for a piece of paper, and European governments are salivating over the idea of having some extra income to support their bankrupt social porgrams. THe temptation was so great that they forgot their centuries-old animosity and united under the flag of a possible free lunch. Saddam was a pawn in the game. His petro-talk played a minor role in his downfall if at all. Claiming it as the main reason for his removal is wishful thinking on the part of the people who wrote this bullsh*t.

tuxon

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502

Posted: June 16 2007 at 23:56

Try and see fom a wider perspective, sure knowledge and technolagie makes the west a superior power, but still we need the resouces of the less fortunate countries, but instead off paying for those we use our technologie and knowledge to steal their resources instead of helping them. The west is simply keeping the rest of the world poor and ignorant because thát's how we make the most money.

I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT

IVNORD

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 17 2007 at 00:14

Sean Trane wrote:

IVNORD wrote:

I'm not fooling myself one bit, my wallet reminds it to me twice a week. why twice a week? filling up your car? I don't get it >> yes you do, you understood it fine the first time around I really didn't. honestly

. Yeah, "muting" women is a normal wish for sanity and sanitary reasons >> I think the Talibans did that with a pieceof clothing called Burqas

. The problem is that you can't see whether they're cute under that stuff and it gets in the way for fondling purposes.

Couldn't pass on this one... I've been always wondering what turns the Arab men when they look at their fully clothed women? "Look at the pupils of that one! what a girl!"

looks like we're running out of things to argue about. not

Care to discuss the effects of Roman Empire economy policies in the Aboriginal cultural circles of the XIVth century?

not my forte

IVNORD

Forum Senior Member

Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191

Posted: June 17 2007 at 00:20

tuxon wrote:

Try and see fom a wider perspective, sure knowledge and technolagie makes the west a superior power, but still we need the resouces of the less fortunate countries, but instead off paying for those we use our technologie and knowledge to steal their resources instead of helping them. The west is simply keeping the rest of the world poor and ignorant because thát's how we make the most money.

THe last statement is the only one I can agree with - the west keeps them poor and ignorant. When the global economy needs new consumers, it will change. Until then there will be rich and poor nations. After that some nations will be richer, other - poorer.