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stonebeard 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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 Posted: June 07 2007 at 00:20 |
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: June 07 2007 at 00:22 |
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: June 07 2007 at 00:24 |
OK, that's enough.  I'm banning myself from this thread for 25 minutes.  
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 07 2007 at 04:45 |
 IVNORD wrote:
Of course, it wasn’t offered graciously, but the leftists credit themselves with “tearing it away” way too excessively, as you just did. They accelerated the events, ............................. not at the time of the French revolution nor the Paris Commune. So we’re back to square one – all demonstrations, fighting and other commotions are futile. >> OK, I agree with you enough on the general historics to avoid nitpicking on details
In case you've never heard of it Sean, during the Cuban crisis in 1962 Fidel called on Khrustchev to nuke the US. Imagine if they did so. Now Fidel would be living in the world without the US. And so he does. 1962 is 45 years ago. And if Castro called for the annihilation of the US, remember that the US had tried to invade Cuba (bay of pigs, anyone?), so his call was the answer to meddling inside Cuban, affairs. What the US must realize is that they have no business in Cuba , regardless whether they like it or not Cuba is not Porto Rico.
But you're still defending him. >> Not defending him, finding him attenuating circumstances maybe (just to resist this implacable US machine for 50 years is an incredible achievement, which can only forcea certain kind of respect), but in other contexts, I attack him viciously with his stupid 12-hours marathon speeches, his cult personality complex etc...
It's like someone wants to kill you, and you not only don't press charges, but buy a couple of Cuban cigars from him because they've confiscated his gun and he needs another one. And if you want more cigars he could rob the tabacconist. To buy ammunition for his gun. Isn't it sweet? >> you just said that Cuba is no more than an insect bite on the US buttocks... Where would be the problem is suppressing the embargo since Cuba couldn't even start hurting the States. The humanitarian distress situation would suddendly be gone, and the regime might just disappear on its own for lack of "raison d'être".
Unfortunately we provide free entertainment to the world from time to time. Clinton's impeachment being another great circus. >> Clinton made the planet laugh not only with Monica, his outburst of laughter regarding Yeltsin insulting journalists and Chirac's reference to be Attila The Hun, were not only genuine, but alse eased international tensions. All Bush does is accentuate tension with rigid stances
Haven't heard the opposition reporting that Chavez had Swiss or Bahamas bank account, even when they have the CIA on their side. Not yet my friend, not yet. It's very tempting up there. Wait and see. >> That's all I ask, wait and see , most likely at some point, he will become a despot and a tyran/dictator, because they all do!!! But so far, he's still a democrat
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 07 2007 at 04:48 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Incredibly in their houses with the knowledge of the family, they have to survive and this is unfair
I talked with an agent who told me how hard it was for this people since prostitution was turned into a crime with prison.
BTW: Varadero is not a whorehouse, it's only a Beach complex of hotels for people between 20 and 50. The biggest hotels are there now.
Iván
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And Varadero is hardly the image Cuba gives of itself in European tour agencies, and is almost the furthest away from the general situation of the country.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 07 2007 at 10:49 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Of course, it wasn’t offered graciously, but the leftists credit themselves with “tearing it away” way too excessively, as you just did. They accelerated the events, ............................. not at the time of the French revolution nor the Paris Commune. So we’re back to square one – all demonstrations, fighting and other commotions are futile. >> OK, I agree with you enough on the general historics to avoid nitpicking on details You seem to be tired. Attrition has never been my strategy.
In case you've never heard of it Sean, during the Cuban crisis in 1962 Fidel called on Khrustchev to nuke the US. Imagine if they did so. Now Fidel would be living in the world without the US. And so he does. 1962 is 45 years ago. And if Castro called for the annihilation of the US, remember that the US had tried to invade Cuba (bay of pigs, anyone?), so his call was the answer to meddling inside Cuban, affairs. What the US must realize is that they have no business in Cuba , regardless whether they like it or not Cuba is not Porto Rico.
The Bay of Pigs was a reaction to Fidel’s export of communism. The US considers Latin America too close to home. But whatever the reason, you must agree that nuclear annihilation of an entire country is a very drastic solution. But you're still defending him. >> Not defending him, finding him attenuating circumstances maybe (just to resist this implacable US machine for 50 years is an incredible achievement, Achievement? At what cost? which can only forcea certain kind of respect), but in other contexts, I attack him viciously with his stupid 12-hours marathon speeches, his cult personality complex etc...
You forgot to include his abuse of power. He could have been an idealist in the beginning (from what I’ve read about him) but power corrupts.
It's like someone wants to kill you, and you not only don't press charges, but buy a couple of Cuban cigars from him because they've confiscated his gun and he needs another one. And if you want more cigars he could rob the tabacconist. To buy ammunition for his gun. Isn't it sweet? >> you just said that Cuba is no more than an insect bite on the US buttocks... Where would be the problem is suppressing the embargo since Cuba couldn't even start hurting the States. The humanitarian distress situation would suddendly be gone, and the regime might just disappear on its own for lack of "raison d'être". Regimes like Castro’s don’t just disappear. I am generally in agreement with you on the embargo (surprised?) it’s meaningless at least since the late 80’s. It’s more of a nuisance for us. I tghink it’s still in effect due to the Cuban lobby in the US, they want no less than returning home and getting all their property back.
Unfortunately we provide free entertainment to the world from time to time. Clinton's impeachment being another great circus. >> Clinton made the planet laugh not only with Monica, his outburst of laughter regarding Yeltsin insulting journalists and Chirac's reference to be Attila The Hun, were not only genuine, but alse eased international tensions. All Bush does is accentuate tension with rigid stances The seeds of today’s trouble were sown by Clinton. He was a disastrous president. Bush made it worse instead of fixing it.
Haven't heard the opposition reporting that Chavez had Swiss or Bahamas bank account, even when they have the CIA on their side. Not yet my friend, not yet. It's very tempting up there. Wait and see. >> That's all I ask, wait and see, most likely at some point, he will become a despot and a tyran/dictator, because they all do!!! But so far, he's still a democrat Not sure about that, but as long as he plays by the rules (unlike Fidel) he will be allowed to say whatever he wants.
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: June 07 2007 at 16:33 |
IVNORD wrote:
Chus wrote:
Even as there is theorically an embargo, I don't see it much objectively. How do people get a handful of those cuban cigars, for example? |
Chus, how are things? |
Today we got to march to the congress to make a claim; and the pro-Chavez students (which are not really that many) wanted to set a debate; we don't want a debate because we can't debate civil and fundamental human rights. They kept allegating that freedom of speech still exists (of course still exists as long as we still have few of the medias covering us, one television and some written press -which are also under "investigation") and hence our accusations are false (our freedom is limiting itself slowly, of course they like to see it another way in their narrow minds). Globovision hasn't closed yet, but apparently soon, as well as the written press which is the next objective
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Jesus Gabriel
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: June 07 2007 at 16:36 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Of course, it wasn’t offered graciously, but the leftists credit themselves with “tearing it away” way too excessively, as you just did. They accelerated the events, ............................. not at the time of the French revolution nor the Paris Commune. So we’re back to square one – all demonstrations, fighting and other commotions are futile. >> OK, I agree with you enough on the general historics to avoid nitpicking on details
In case you've never heard of it Sean, during the Cuban crisis in 1962 Fidel called on Khrustchev to nuke the US. Imagine if they did so. Now Fidel would be living in the world without the US. And so he does. 1962 is 45 years ago. And if Castro called for the annihilation of the US, remember that the US had tried to invade Cuba (bay of pigs, anyone?), so his call was the answer to meddling inside Cuban, affairs. What the US must realize is that they have no business in Cuba , regardless whether they like it or not Cuba is not Porto Rico.
But you're still defending him. >> Not defending him, finding him attenuating circumstances maybe (just to resist this implacable US machine for 50 years is an incredible achievement, which can only forcea certain kind of respect), but in other contexts, I attack him viciously with his stupid 12-hours marathon speeches, his cult personality complex etc...
It's like someone wants to kill you, and you not only don't press charges, but buy a couple of Cuban cigars from him because they've confiscated his gun and he needs another one. And if you want more cigars he could rob the tabacconist. To buy ammunition for his gun. Isn't it sweet? >> you just said that Cuba is no more than an insect bite on the US buttocks... Where would be the problem is suppressing the embargo since Cuba couldn't even start hurting the States. The humanitarian distress situation would suddendly be gone, and the regime might just disappear on its own for lack of "raison d'être".
Unfortunately we provide free entertainment to the world from time to time. Clinton's impeachment being another great circus. >> Clinton made the planet laugh not only with Monica, his outburst of laughter regarding Yeltsin insulting journalists and Chirac's reference to be Attila The Hun, were not only genuine, but alse eased international tensions. All Bush does is accentuate tension with rigid stances
Haven't heard the opposition reporting that Chavez had Swiss or Bahamas bank account, even when they have the CIA on their side. Not yet my friend, not yet. It's very tempting up there. Wait and see. >> That's all I ask, wait and see, most likely at some point, he will become a despot and a tyran/dictator, because they all do!!! But so far, he's still a democrat
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it has been denounced somewhat, as well some functionaries happen to live in quite fancy mansions and driving quite voluptuous vehicles; but the news didn't go international of course. And some of it are still rumours
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Jesus Gabriel
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: June 07 2007 at 18:07 |
stonebeard wrote:
I buy my cocaine straight from the farmers. Those cartels are just plain greedy.
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Heck , I know people who cut out the farmer for a certain kind of weed.  They seem to have a lot of friends now. 
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: June 07 2007 at 21:20 |
Sean Trane wrote:
And Varadero is hardly the image Cuba gives of itself in European tour agencies, and is almost the furthest away from the general situation of the country. |
Probably uis a marketing strategy, the two times I went to Varadero (1999 amnd 2003) it was full of Latin Americans and Canadians, they prepared this resorts for people who want to stay away from reality for a week or two (All included so you don't have to go outside the hotel) and far from La Habana (I had to rent a motorcycle to take the money to this nice lady her daughter had given me in Lima).
They also probably discovered Europe people use family packages, so they prepare a different set of entertaintment for all the family that includes tourism, a place to leave the kids alone and more calmed (Probably more expensive).
That's called marketing.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 07 2007 at 21:22
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 05:48 |
IVNORD wrote:
OK, I agree with you enough on the general historics to avoid nitpicking on details
You seem to be tired. Attrition has never been my strategy. >> Not tired, but I think everything's been said in that direction that can be useful (unless we get down to rethorics), and this is supposed to be about Venezuela (not that it's stopped us before), not about global ecomics and industrial revolution
The Bay of Pigs was a reaction to Fidel’s export of communism. The US considers Latin America too close to home.>> I know and all of the Latino unfortunately know this, but the US has no business interferring there, but has been for over 200 years. Much of the Communists regime in Latin America were reaction to US exploitation. But whatever the reason, you must agree that nuclear annihilation of an entire country is a very drastic solution. >> In French, we say, la réponse du berger à la bergère >> roughly translate to: Tit For Tat
(just to resist this implacable US machine for 50 years is an incredible achievement, Achievement? At what cost? >> A weird sort of imperfect Freedom maybe?, Before they were gopher for Mafiosi and US citizens' vices
I attack him viciously with his stupid 12-hours marathon speeches, his cult personality complex etc...
You forgot to include his abuse of power. >> Indeed if you want to add more charges, be my guest, Castro's probably guyilty of those to.
He could have been an idealist in the beginning (from what I’ve read about him) but power corrupts. >> I think in some weird way, he's still an idealist (so was Hitler, but Hitler's ideals were not generous and about equality), but his idealism lead him to crimes against humanity
I think it’s still in effect due to the Cuban lobby in the US, they want no less than returning home and getting all their property back. >> Indeed, this is more likely the cause. And Cuba's worst fears also: the returning of the mafia that set the brothels, and casinos. I fear it for them as well. Those Cubans in Miami are anything but nice.
The seeds of today’s trouble were sown by Clinton. He was a disastrous president. >> strangely the world does not see him as disastrous. Personally he's the best I can remember ahead of Carter. Bush made it worse instead of fixing it.
That's all I ask, wait and see, most likely at some point, he will become a despot and a tyran/dictator, because they all do!!! But so far, he's still a democrat Not sure about that, but as long as he plays by the rules (unlike Fidel) he will be allowed to say whatever he wants. >> I actually wish he would also let others say what they want. I don't like his closing down newspaper and TV chains. They attack him probably unfairly and are a nuisance to his politics (which I still be are generous), but closing them down is a mistake. He should act like they are useless and the size of a mosquito, but probably that they are too dangerous for him to ignore.
Were I Venezuelan, and supporting Chavez, I'd probably protest the closures as well.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 10:31 |
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Yes, as there are many pro-Chavez people protesting, this is not a political protest; the government, however, wants people to think so. That's why they did yesterday's debate charade, in a congress of just one political colour (red), and the defenders of Chavez's decision feeling like home talking about everything but what we are reclaiming, which is to be respected and treated as equal. We (the students in general) didn't want to debate in a one-colour assembly but in students' assemblies
Edited by Chus - June 08 2007 at 10:37
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Jesus Gabriel
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 11:42 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
The Bay of Pigs was a reaction to Fidel’s export of communism. The US considers Latin America too close to home.>> I know and all of the Latino unfortunately know this, but the US has no business interferring there, but has been for over 200 years. Much of the Communists regime in Latin America were reaction to US exploitation. You look at it from the morality side. I just state the facts and leave the morality alone. The Big money is immoral but it moves the world. It interferes in Latin America as much as it does in Europe and elsewhere. Fighting it is like trying to stop a huge millstone - it wioll crush you. I can't stand human misery but all i can do is just close my eyes not to see it and try to stay out of that misery. Because I know there will always be poor and exploited people. And I know first hand how bad and humiliating poverty is.
I think it’s still in effect due to the Cuban lobby in the US, they want no less than returning home and getting all their property back. >> Indeed, this is more likely the cause. And Cuba's worst fears also: the returning of the mafia that set the brothels, and casinos. I fear it for them as well. Those Cubans in Miami are anything but nice. Your judgement is too harsh. Lots of decent people left Cuba, middle class and poor ones. I don't think their claims to their property are illegitimate. Whatever they had, a country house or a cigar factory. Would you consider confiscating you 9-year old car a fair act? (unless your sick of the gasoline prices and want to get rid of it anyway)
The seeds of today’s trouble were sown by Clinton. He was a disastrous president. >> strangely the world does not see him as disastrous. Personally he's the best I can remember ahead of Carter. Dont' start please. He was clever enough to disguise it as a great achievement. He created the economic bubble we're still in for the only purpose to be re-elected. His policies led us to the Iraq war.
That's all I ask, wait and see, most likely at some point, he will become a despot and a tyran/dictator, because they all do!!! But so far, he's still a democrat Not sure about that, but as long as he plays by the rules (unlike Fidel) he will be allowed to say whatever he wants. >> I actually wish he would also let others say what they want. I don't like his closing down newspaper and TV chains. They attack him probably unfairly and are a nuisance to his politics (which I still be are generous), but closing them down is a mistake. He should act like they are useless and the size of a mosquito, but probably that they are too dangerous for him to ignore.
Were I Venezuelan, and supporting Chavez, I'd probably protest the closures as well. Again, I meant it differently. The rules are - don't interrupt the oil supplies. Then nobody will touch him.
If you don't look at things from the economy perspective, you will continue to confuse the primary and the secondary.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 11:45 |
Chus wrote:
Yes, as there are many pro-Chavez people protesting, this is not a political protest; the government, however, wants people to think so. That's why they did yesterday's debate charade, in a congress of just one political colour (red), and the defenders of Chavez's decision feeling like home talking about everything but what we are reclaiming, which is to be respected and treated as equal. We (the students in general) didn't want to debate in a one-colour assembly but in students' assemblies |
Chus, debating is good. It develops logical thinking, rhetorical skills and speech in general. It will lead you nowhere politically but at least there will be no broken bones or smashed faces. And don’t neglect your studies. Later in life it will prove to be more important than debating. Stay safe man.
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 12:21 |
Of course, we like to debate but the point is that if the judges in the debate are all against you (yes, the congress belongs to Chavez's allies only) there's no point, they always favour the other part while they keep repeating how imperialists, coup mongers and manipulated we are, and how this is a social class fight (while we try to be inclusive in our fight, and there are poor and rich, black and white together in this protest) the way Chavez and his minions always do; what they prepared in the congress was a circus practically, and we would had been even more bashed , that why the best thing to do was to leave that assembly... and debate on more neutral grounds.
And thanks for the good wishes, I indeed am trying to keep up on studies, though I'm thinking of switching careers. In any case this is also about our professional future, because Chavez also wants to intervene in the superior education system, trying to force his ideology on it
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Jesus Gabriel
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 13:16 |
Chus wrote:
Of course, we like to debate but the point is that if the judges in the debate are all against you (yes, the congress belongs to Chavez's allies only) there's no point, that's exactly my point
they always favour the other part while they keep repeating how imperialists, coup mongers and manipulated we are, and how this is a social class fight (while we try to be inclusive in our fight, and there are poor and rich, black and white together in this protest) the way Chavez and his minions always do; what they prepared in the congress was a circus practically, and we would had been even more bashed , that why the best thing to do was to leave that assembly... and debate on more neutral grounds.
And thanks for the good wishes, I indeed am trying to keep up on studies, though I'm thinking of switching careers. In any case this is also about our professional future, because Chavez also wants to intervene in the superior education system, trying to force his ideology on it Stick to education and ignore ideology of any stripe |
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 13:32 |
as my forum name may imply I am a communist. I find it extremly dissapointing that all these countries call themself communist as well, but I doubt that Chavez ever read the manifesto, and if he did he did not understand it, or more likly did not care. He is pushing people further into poverty rather than pulling them out, the exact opposite of Marx's plan. The manifesto supports free elections, where are they, it does not support dictatorship. The systems that now call themself communist are trully just capitalism with extreme taxes, this is not how it was ment to be.
Cavez, You are the bourgoise, you are the pig. And they could not tell the diffrence between the pigs and the farmers.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 13:58 |
Proletariat wrote:
as my forum name may imply I am a communist.
Your entire post implies that you’re in a good frame of mind. As the worst case scenario, it shows that assigning the Manifesto for the summer reading program is a bad idea.
I find it extremly dissapointing that all these countries call themself communist as well, but I doubt that Chavez ever read the manifesto, and if he did he did not understand it, or more likly did not care. He is pushing people further into poverty rather than pulling them out, the exact opposite of Marx's plan. The manifesto supports free elections, where are they, it does not support dictatorship. The systems that now call themself communist are trully just capitalism with extreme taxes, this is not how it was ment to be.
Cavez, You are the bourgoise, you are the pig. And they could not tell the diffrence between the pigs and the farmers.
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Chus
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: Venezuela
Status: Offline
Points: 1991
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 16:34 |
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Certainly there was no pure communism anywhere as far as I know; often the ones in power were the capitalists; how can that be if they're all supposed to be equal?. It's also a paradox that the chavecists (functionaries and benefactors) are the new oligarchy and they are the ones who constantly bash oligarcs
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Jesus Gabriel
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: June 08 2007 at 17:37 |
IVNORD wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
as my forum name may imply I am a communist.
Your entire post implies that you’re in a good frame of mind. As the worst case scenario, it shows that assigning the Manifesto for the summer reading program is a bad idea.
I find it extremly dissapointing that all these countries call themself communist as well, but I doubt that Chavez ever read the manifesto, and if he did he did not understand it, or more likly did not care. He is pushing people further into poverty rather than pulling them out, the exact opposite of Marx's plan. The manifesto supports free elections, where are they, it does not support dictatorship. The systems that now call themself communist are trully just capitalism with extreme taxes, this is not how it was ment to be.
Cavez, You are the bourgoise, you are the pig. And they could not tell the diffrence between the pigs and the farmers.
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I read the manifesto of on my own, the school was not involved.
Under true communism the workers elect a council of leaders, those leaders are still expected to work. Anyone who does not do work dosn't get to vote. The workers can withdraw a leader at any time, and as there is no army except the militia of the workers there is nothing that the council can do to stop them. You are free to not be a communist and not support the system, but in doing so you are saying that the system does not need to support you ither, and because there is no tecnical government there is no one to get upset and feel the need to kill you.
This is a form of communism known as libretarian or council communism, it was a movement that was gaining strength before the revolution in russia, but the offitial party wiped it out.
P.S. the revolution has not occured yet! there are sertain prerequisites that need to be met first, one being that the country that adopts the system should already be powerfull and not a dump in the first place. The countries that thought they were products of the revolution have mainly been decades behind and poor as dirt.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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