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Topic ClosedFripp's rules for Bill Bruford, 1981

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laplace View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 06:45
fripp rules indeed

16. Don't release an album called Beat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 06:49
Though I hope he never actually told Bill those things (that would be provocative), Fripp is spot on.. less is indeed more.








Edited by Atavachron - April 25 2007 at 06:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 07:02
And there was me thinking from many a favourite jazz rock drummer, Bruford was one of the  most economic.........even less is much more???????????????
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 07:09
Here is some more Fripp's brainstorming
 
 
and the timeline for fans (I stopped beeing his fan after Starless and bible black)
 
 
 
and finaly biography by Eric Tamm
 


Edited by pero - April 25 2007 at 07:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 07:38
Originally posted by Topographic Topographic wrote:

Originally posted by pero pero wrote:

The man is sick. No wonder that he spent time in monastery.


Wrong Crimso percussionist.  You're thinking of Jamie Muir, the second percussionist on Larks' Tongues in Aspic.  If I remember right, he broke his foot during a concert, quit the band, and ran off to a monastery.  Apparently, he's a painter now.

As far as the whole deal with Fripp and Bruford, they're probably two of my favorite musicians of all time, so I'm not sure quite what to think of it.  It does show the quirky dynamics of the two for certain, though.Wink  Which is what made Crimso so great.

-Topographic
 
When I said monastery I meant of his ten month course in Sherborne. He wrote about his experience:
 
 Fripp gave one of his accounts of his Sherborne year when Stephe Pritchard, during the 1981 Recorder Three interview, asked him, "In what ways do you think Gurdjieff has influenced you?" Fripp answered, "Well, I probably wouldn't be here now, certainly not in this form, if I hadn't come across that." Fripp described how, during the ten-month course at Sherborne, students were allowed to leave the premises only one day every three weeks. "We lost three people to the asylum in my year and overall twenty per cent [of the students] left ... It was very, very hard work; it was the difference between working on the inside and the outside, that if you're feeling a bit pissed off you can go to the pictures or watch television or get drunk or do whatever. But in Sherborne you had to sit there and find a way of dealing with it - the expression would be working with it - not easy. The woman I was living with left me while I was there which was awful for me - I was pretty suicidal - it was not easy. But, on the other hand, that was certainly the beginning of my life, if you like." Fripp went on to describe the day's regimen, which began with rising at six in the morning (at four-thirty if one had kitchen duty). Morning psychological exercises were conducted at quarter to seven, followed by breakfast at seven thirty. At eight-thirty began the day's work with practical skills, including metal work, stonemasonry, carpentry, and so on. "In addition to practical work we had cosmological lectures, there were remarkable Gurdjieff movements, sacred kinesis; but essentially it was very practical, the school wasn't primarily theoretical." Many issues that came up during the year "confounded the mind," proving unamenable to rational analysis. The living quarters were cold, uncomfortable, and lacked privacy (Fripp shared a dorm room with five other men). Psychologically provocative situations constantly arose among the residents. And to top it off, Fripp even came to believe the house was haunted.


Edited by pero - April 25 2007 at 07:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 09:01
Nothing wrong with being the boss.  Look at Zappa.  I think you will find he was quite a bit more demanding than Fripp ever was/is, and all the musicians that played for him came out better than before they joined.  I can't fault Fripp for pursuing his vision.  And really, I think he was just trying to keep egos in check in the band.  When you have such great and dominant players, things can get out of control fairly quickly without some sort of set direction.  I really don't think he held Bruford back.  I think he helped Bruford become a much better drummer, a more sympathetic drummer.  Bruford, not surprisingly, has mixed feelings about his time with Crimson.  But I'd be willing to bet he feels good about the benefits to his drumming that being in that band gave him.

To paraphrase Fripp, the true joy of playing comes when the music plays the player, and not the other way around.  As individuals we can get caught up in our own egos and perceptions of what is "good", without realizing that we are not serving the music.  And believe me, there is nothing more satisfying than when a band clicks as a single unit and submerges the individuals into a total "sound".  This does not, as some might think, stifle creativity or expression, but actually amplifies and enhances it beyond what any individual can possibly do alone.  This is not something that is easy, or that happens all the time.  But when it does, there is no better musical experience.  For me, anyhow.

And I don't even much like 80's and 90's Crimson Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 09:16
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Nothing wrong with being the boss.  Look at Zappa.  I think you will find he was quite a bit more demanding than Fripp ever was/is, and all the musicians that played for him came out better than before they joined.  I can't fault Fripp for pursuing his vision.  And really, I think he was just trying to keep egos in check in the band.  When you have such great and dominant players, things can get out of control fairly quickly without some sort of set direction.  I really don't think he held Bruford back.  I think he helped Bruford become a much better drummer, a more sympathetic drummer.  Bruford, not surprisingly, has mixed feelings about his time with Crimson.  But I'd be willing to bet he feels good about the benefits to his drumming that being in that band gave him.To paraphrase Fripp, the true joy of playing comes when the music plays the player, and not the other way around.  As individuals we can get caught up in our own egos and perceptions of what is "good", without realizing that we are not serving the music.  And believe me, there is nothing more satisfying than when a band clicks as a single unit and submerges the individuals into a total "sound".  This does not, as some might think, stifle creativity or expression, but actually amplifies and enhances it beyond what any individual can possibly do alone.  This is not something that is easy, or that happens all the time.  But when it does, there is no better musical experience.  For me, anyhow.And I don't even much like 80's and 90's Crimson Smile


While I agree with you in principle, there's always the risk of becoming free of your own ego... only to become entangled in someone else's ego.

With leadership comes responsibility and with responsibility comes what... a sheet of paper with 'thou shalts' and 'thou shalt nots'? Maybe there is no better way after all, but that does not prevent me from being suspicious of such texts and the people that create them... as much as I love King Crimson
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 09:20
The only thing that it shows is that Fripp wanted another kind of drummer to his 80's albums, so he listed what he wanted Bruford to do. Of course we know Fripp is not the most friendly and polite guy around, but these lines doesn't prove that Fripp is ridiculous or an absolute genius. He just wanted something different than Bruford was acostumed to do.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 10:16

Quote

While I agree with you in principle, there's always the risk of becoming free of your own ego... only to become entangled in someone else's ego.

With leadership comes responsibility and with responsibility comes what... a sheet of paper with 'thou shalts' and 'thou shalt nots'? Maybe there is no better way after all, but that does not prevent me from being suspicious of such texts and the people that create them... as much as I love King Crimson



Well, I personally wouldn't make rules like that in a band situation.  Or any other, for that matter.  But you are correct, there is the possibility of loosing your identity in a band situation like that.  And I suppose that is partly why Bruford finally left (and had solo projects as an outlet).  I think Hackett and Gabriel left Genesis for very similar reasons.




Edited by infandous - April 25 2007 at 10:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 10:31
Hmmm...  I guess this rules out Fripp ever working with Mike Portnoy.  Pinch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 10:36
Funny, I though Mastelotto's fills were more shocking, perhaps old Fripp was thinking the other way around in the 2000?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 10:38
I just think it's more of FRIPP kind of twisted sense of humor.
 
I mean Bill Bruford was with KC a first time in the Wetton era 1973-1974
He was there when Fripp reformed KC from 1981 to 1984
Bruford came back again in 1994 for a new KC incarnation.
So i don't think it was so bad.
 
Unless Bill B. is some kind of a masochist, i don't think he would have put up with that if it were true.Wacko
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 11:10
Two things:

1) Atomic Rooster--you cited "Starless" as a great example of disciplined build-up. It is, and much more, as you noted. But it was also written around 1974, while Fripp's list for Bruford was written in 1981. Bruford's mid-70s tendencies were probably exactly was Fripp was writing against.

2) If Bruford was causing Fripp so much agita, it makes me wonder why Fripp chose him. Who would he have conceivably preferred? Jaki Leibzeit? Steve Jansen? Tony Allen?!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 11:18
Less can be more, but only in a certain, hard to hit range.  After that, less is just less.

I think the best way to make albums is to let the players play what they wish to play, and just give them general ideas on how you want them to sound.  For example, Miles Davis would get frustrated at John Coltrane for taking long solos, and he told him so, but it's not like he forced him to make them shorter he didn't like it, but he let everyone play the way they play.

And what's so great about Fripp's guitar playing?  I'm no guitar player, but I don't hear anything that great.  The solo on 21st Century Schizoid Man sounds truly dreadful and not very difficult to me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 11:57
Perhaps you're listening to the wrong solo, Sasquamo. Try the Night Watch, for musicality if not technique, with not so common patterns in rock music; specially his tasteful use of 7ths and minor/major 6ths. Though for glimpse of more technical guitar playing then late Crimso is the nominated for showcase (not showoff) of skill.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 13:20
Though I admire Fripp for his integrity and enjoy much of his music, I think it would take a certain personality type to work productively with him. Not me, that's for sure!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:39
- Some of Fripp's advice to Bill led to highly original results. For example, I seem to remember he told Bill to use the cymbals as little as possible on DISCIPLINE.

- Judging from FOR ABSENT LOVERS, Bill certainly got his some of his own back on tour!

- I also have my doubts if you can all Fripp a 'great' guitarist. A superb rock composer, true. A highly intelligent player who can sound both fierce and very poetic, true. But I just cannot recall too many great Fripp solos. He has his moments, of course. Just listen to the wonderfully melancholic solo with which he concludes "Easy Money" on the USA album. But so many other guitarists are greater virtuosos! (Not that Fripp ever wanted to BE a virtuoso...)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:41
this thread is quickly becoming blasphemous

I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:48
Come to think of it, the many solos on SCARY MONSTERS (AND SUPER CREEPS) are, of course, superb.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:53
Originally posted by laplace laplace wrote:

fripp rules indeed

16. Don't release an album called Beat.
 
God!!  That's the funniest thing I've heard in days.
 
Confused
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