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Fripp's rules for Bill Bruford, 1981

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Topic: Fripp's rules for Bill Bruford, 1981
Posted By: Man Overboard
Subject: Fripp's rules for Bill Bruford, 1981
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 19:47
Taken from the writings of Robert Fripp:

Bill is really getting to me, so I'm trying to understand how he works.

1. He's a very busy player, and doesn't enjoy playing sparsely;
2. His parts have lots of fills and major changes of textures;
3. His fills are dramatic; i.e., they shock.

  So I've been drawing up the following suggestions: 

1. Any existing solution to a problem is the wrong one: absolutum, obsoletum;
2. If you have an idea, don't play it;
3. When a change in the music needs emphasis, don't play it: the change in the music is emphasis enough;
4. Don't phrase with any other member of the band unless it's in the part;
5. Phrasing in the part should include no more than two people;
6. If the tension in the music needs emphasising, don't.  The tension is there because of what you're playing, not what you're about to play;
7. If you really have to change your part to build tension, don't add -- leave out;
8. The maximum tension you can add is by stopping completely;
9. If there is space for a fill which is demanded by the music, don't play it: there are three other people who would like to use the opportunity;
10. If the part you're playing is boring, stop listening with your head;
11. If this still bores you, listen to the interaction between all the parts;
12. If this still bores you, stop playing and wait until you are no longer bored;
13. Do not be dramatic;
14. Do not be afraid to repeat yourself;
15. Do not be afraid to take your time.



Shocked


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https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection.

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Replies:
Posted By: rushaholic
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 19:50
No wonder he was hard to get along with.

Good insight though.


Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 19:54
Wow, just let him do his thing, that's what works best.  It sounds like he's trying to turn him into a robot, or a square, or both.


Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 19:55
And yet, the 80's lineup put out some of the most intricate, tasteful music ever.  Who would've thought?

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https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection.

Commissions considered.


Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 20:31
That helps explain why King Crimson has never appealed to me.


Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 21:08
You might think that that was pretty harsh, but it wasn't, Fripp was being realistic.  He didn't want one man's ego and personal vision getting in the way of the music, and it worked.

For the best example of the tense, dramatic effectiveness that Fripp was guiding Bruford to, check out the Great build in "Starless" from Red, one of the best suspense moments in their repertoire and possibly in rock.

Fripp knew what he was doing


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I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.


Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 21:47
I guess he didn't want one man's style or personality getting in the way either.


Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 21:58
Heaven forbid a guy have an -aim-.

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https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection.

Commissions considered.


Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 22:06
Originally posted by Man Overboard Man Overboard wrote:

Heaven forbid a guy have an -aim-.


exactly!

No, not really, but I guess a good analogy might be:  KC was Fripp's child, and Bruford was taking it out back to the shed to roll some reefers, which I'm not saying is a bad thing per se, just not anything a parent would desire for their children.

Nahh, if Bruford didn't agree with Fripp, I'm sure he would have left, or wouldn't have come back later, plus he plenty of time to express himself fully on his solo albums, where his aims wouldn't distract from a cohesive jam.

Dead I probably sound like a Fripp fanboy now


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I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.


Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 22:17
I think those words carry a los of wisdom, I can really say that this is almost a guide for this kind of music, specially for a band like Crimson.
You freakin nailed it Fripp!


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"You want me to play what, Robert?"


Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 22:48
Fripp rules.  end of story.

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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 23:04
I don't think this reflects badly on Mr. Fripp. He is just exercizing creative control over his project, which is what you have to do if you have a vision. I'm sure all the great composers of days gone by were equally harsh if not more so.

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Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 23:46
Usually I would tell Fripp to let one of the greatest drummers born play what they want... but it's Fripp, arguably the greatest guitar player ever bornSmile, and when you put it into perspective, Fripp is better. WHAT FRIPP SAYS IS LAW!!!

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Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 23:56
Originally posted by schizoid_man77 schizoid_man77 wrote:


WHAT FRIPP SAYS IS LAW!!!


Legend has it that if a guitar were to be made out of his thighbone and a pick from one of his teeth, their combined harmonics would end music as we know it; obliterating the twelve-tone scale and forever slaying the witch that is Britney Spears!

Of course to create a weapon of that magnitude, music would have to lose its greatest savior and paladin of truth - he who holds in his left hand a fretboard wrought of the souls of those who have died trying to figure out what key his solos are in and in his right hand a pick made of the pure meteoric might that is the pick of destiny, an item so devastating that should a mortal behold it in its pure glory he might comprehend the musical simplicity that is his mind's harmonics and despair.

To guard against such a black day as the (gasp) death of Fripp, may his name forever be chanted by the priests before his altar, there was established the Krimson Reliquary whereupon...

Yeah... I've got too much time on my hands


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I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.


Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 00:35
"If this still bores you, stop playing and wait until you are no longer bored"
Hahaha, is he serious?
 
Man, I hate minimalism.


Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 00:41
Originally posted by Ghandi 2 Ghandi 2 wrote:

"If this still bores you, stop playing and wait until you are no longer bored"
Hahaha, is he serious?
 
Man, I hate minimalism.


Should the Fripp, may his laughter sound with the shattered groan of a million clowns, joke or quip, it would serve only to hasten the death of the world spirit - Fripp II 37:12-13

Remember and meditate always on such wise thoughts: "Discipline is a Vehicle for Joy"


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I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.


Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 04:29
Is this turning into a thread of blatant Fripp-worship, or something?

After Bill Bruford left Crimso, he was quoted as saying: "I found my time with the band musically and intellectually stimulating; I remain grateful for its existence, and full of admiration for its leader, as its leader well knows. I, of all the group's members, was not the enemy, but I did have the thickest skin, well used to receiving the sharpest barbs" (Sid Smith, IN THE COURT OF KING CRIMSON p. 286)

Elsewhere, Bill has described Fripp as "a difficult bugger".

I'm not surprised!


Posted By: pero
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 05:32
The man is sick. No wonder that he spent time in monastery.


Posted By: Topographic
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 06:06
Originally posted by pero pero wrote:

The man is sick. No wonder that he spent time in monastery.


Wrong Crimso percussionist.  You're thinking of Jamie Muir, the second percussionist on Larks' Tongues in Aspic.  If I remember right, he broke his foot during a concert, quit the band, and ran off to a monastery.  Apparently, he's a painter now.

As far as the whole deal with Fripp and Bruford, they're probably two of my favorite musicians of all time, so I'm not sure quite what to think of it.  It does show the quirky dynamics of the two for certain, though.Wink  Which is what made Crimso so great.

-Topographic


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Have you rearranged your liver to the solid mental grace today?


Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 06:26
If a thread is in need of a humourous post, don't post it - its absence is humorous enough.




Doh!



Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 06:45
fripp rules indeed

16. Don't release an album called Beat.


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FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL


Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 06:49
Though I hope he never actually told Bill those things (that would be provocative), Fripp is spot on.. less is indeed more.








Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 07:02
And there was me thinking from many a favourite jazz rock drummer, Bruford was one of the  most economic.........even less is much more???????????????

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Posted By: pero
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 07:09
Here is some more Fripp's brainstorming
 
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/robert_fripp.html - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/robert_fripp.html
 
and the timeline for fans (I stopped beeing his fan after Starless and bible black)
 
 
  http://www.fringedigital.com/fripp/ - http://www.fringedigital.com/fripp/
 
and finaly biography by Eric Tamm
 
http://www.progressiveears.com/frippbook/contents.htm - http://www.progressiveears.com/frippbook/contents.htm


Posted By: pero
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 07:38
Originally posted by Topographic Topographic wrote:

Originally posted by pero pero wrote:

The man is sick. No wonder that he spent time in monastery.


Wrong Crimso percussionist.  You're thinking of Jamie Muir, the second percussionist on Larks' Tongues in Aspic.  If I remember right, he broke his foot during a concert, quit the band, and ran off to a monastery.  Apparently, he's a painter now.

As far as the whole deal with Fripp and Bruford, they're probably two of my favorite musicians of all time, so I'm not sure quite what to think of it.  It does show the quirky dynamics of the two for certain, though.Wink  Which is what made Crimso so great.

-Topographic
 
When I said monastery I meant of his ten month course in Sherborne. He wrote about his experience:
 
 Fripp gave one of his accounts of his Sherborne year when Stephe Pritchard, during the 1981 Recorder Three interview, asked him, "In what ways do you think Gurdjieff has influenced you?" Fripp answered, "Well, I probably wouldn't be here now, certainly not in this form, if I hadn't come across that." Fripp described how, during the ten-month course at Sherborne, students were allowed to leave the premises only one day every three weeks. "We lost three people to the asylum in my year and overall twenty per cent [of the students] left ... It was very, very hard work; it was the difference between working on the inside and the outside, that if you're feeling a bit pissed off you can go to the pictures or watch television or get drunk or do whatever. But in Sherborne you had to sit there and find a way of dealing with it - the expression would be working with it - not easy. The woman I was living with left me while I was there which was awful for me - I was pretty suicidal - it was not easy. But, on the other hand, that was certainly the beginning of my life, if you like." Fripp went on to describe the day's regimen, which began with rising at six in the morning (at four-thirty if one had kitchen duty). Morning psychological exercises were conducted at quarter to seven, followed by breakfast at seven thirty. At eight-thirty began the day's work with practical skills, including metal work, stonemasonry, carpentry, and so on. "In addition to practical work we had cosmological lectures, there were remarkable Gurdjieff movements, sacred kinesis; but essentially it was very practical, the school wasn't primarily theoretical." Many issues that came up during the year "confounded the mind," proving unamenable to rational analysis. The living quarters were cold, uncomfortable, and lacked privacy (Fripp shared a dorm room with five other men). Psychologically provocative situations constantly arose among the residents. And to top it off, Fripp even came to believe the house was haunted.


Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 09:01
Nothing wrong with being the boss.  Look at Zappa.  I think you will find he was quite a bit more demanding than Fripp ever was/is, and all the musicians that played for him came out better than before they joined.  I can't fault Fripp for pursuing his vision.  And really, I think he was just trying to keep egos in check in the band.  When you have such great and dominant players, things can get out of control fairly quickly without some sort of set direction.  I really don't think he held Bruford back.  I think he helped Bruford become a much better drummer, a more sympathetic drummer.  Bruford, not surprisingly, has mixed feelings about his time with Crimson.  But I'd be willing to bet he feels good about the benefits to his drumming that being in that band gave him.

To paraphrase Fripp, the true joy of playing comes when the music plays the player, and not the other way around.  As individuals we can get caught up in our own egos and perceptions of what is "good", without realizing that we are not serving the music.  And believe me, there is nothing more satisfying than when a band clicks as a single unit and submerges the individuals into a total "sound".  This does not, as some might think, stifle creativity or expression, but actually amplifies and enhances it beyond what any individual can possibly do alone.  This is not something that is easy, or that happens all the time.  But when it does, there is no better musical experience.  For me, anyhow.

And I don't even much like 80's and 90's Crimson Smile


Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 09:16
Originally posted by infandous infandous wrote:

Nothing wrong with being the boss.  Look at Zappa.  I think you will find he was quite a bit more demanding than Fripp ever was/is, and all the musicians that played for him came out better than before they joined.  I can't fault Fripp for pursuing his vision.  And really, I think he was just trying to keep egos in check in the band.  When you have such great and dominant players, things can get out of control fairly quickly without some sort of set direction.  I really don't think he held Bruford back.  I think he helped Bruford become a much better drummer, a more sympathetic drummer.  Bruford, not surprisingly, has mixed feelings about his time with Crimson.  But I'd be willing to bet he feels good about the benefits to his drumming that being in that band gave him.To paraphrase Fripp, the true joy of playing comes when the music plays the player, and not the other way around.  As individuals we can get caught up in our own egos and perceptions of what is "good", without realizing that we are not serving the music.  And believe me, there is nothing more satisfying than when a band clicks as a single unit and submerges the individuals into a total "sound".  This does not, as some might think, stifle creativity or expression, but actually amplifies and enhances it beyond what any individual can possibly do alone.  This is not something that is easy, or that happens all the time.  But when it does, there is no better musical experience.  For me, anyhow.And I don't even much like 80's and 90's Crimson Smile


While I agree with you in principle, there's always the risk of becoming free of your own ego... only to become entangled in someone else's ego.

With leadership comes responsibility and with responsibility comes what... a sheet of paper with 'thou shalts' and 'thou shalt nots'? Maybe there is no better way after all, but that does not prevent me from being suspicious of such texts and the people that create them... as much as I love King Crimson


Posted By: akin
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 09:20
The only thing that it shows is that Fripp wanted another kind of drummer to his 80's albums, so he listed what he wanted Bruford to do. Of course we know Fripp is not the most friendly and polite guy around, but these lines doesn't prove that Fripp is ridiculous or an absolute genius. He just wanted something different than Bruford was acostumed to do.
 


Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 10:16

Quote

While I agree with you in principle, there's always the risk of becoming free of your own ego... only to become entangled in someone else's ego.

With leadership comes responsibility and with responsibility comes what... a sheet of paper with 'thou shalts' and 'thou shalt nots'? Maybe there is no better way after all, but that does not prevent me from being suspicious of such texts and the people that create them... as much as I love King Crimson



Well, I personally wouldn't make rules like that in a band situation.  Or any other, for that matter.  But you are correct, there is the possibility of loosing your identity in a band situation like that.  And I suppose that is partly why Bruford finally left (and had solo projects as an outlet).  I think Hackett and Gabriel left Genesis for very similar reasons.




Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 10:31
Hmmm...  I guess this rules out Fripp ever working with Mike Portnoy.  Pinch

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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain


Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 10:36
Funny, I though Mastelotto's fills were more shocking, perhaps old Fripp was thinking the other way around in the 2000?

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Jesus Gabriel


Posted By: febus
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 10:38
I just think it's more of FRIPP kind of twisted sense of humor.
 
I mean Bill Bruford was with KC a first time in the Wetton era 1973-1974
He was there when Fripp reformed KC from 1981 to 1984
Bruford came back again in 1994 for a new KC incarnation.
So i don't think it was so bad.
 
Unless Bill B. is some kind of a masochist, i don't think he would have put up with that if it were true.Wacko


Posted By: captainbeyond
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 11:10
Two things:

1) Atomic Rooster--you cited "Starless" as a great example of disciplined build-up. It is, and much more, as you noted. But it was also written around 1974, while Fripp's list for Bruford was written in 1981. Bruford's mid-70s tendencies were probably exactly was Fripp was writing against.

2) If Bruford was causing Fripp so much agita, it makes me wonder why Fripp chose him. Who would he have conceivably preferred? Jaki Leibzeit? Steve Jansen? Tony Allen?!


Posted By: Sasquamo
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 11:18
Less can be more, but only in a certain, hard to hit range.  After that, less is just less.

I think the best way to make albums is to let the players play what they wish to play, and just give them general ideas on how you want them to sound.  For example, Miles Davis would get frustrated at John Coltrane for taking long solos, and he told him so, but it's not like he forced him to make them shorter he didn't like it, but he let everyone play the way they play.

And what's so great about Fripp's guitar playing?  I'm no guitar player, but I don't hear anything that great.  The solo on 21st Century Schizoid Man sounds truly dreadful and not very difficult to me.


Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 11:57
Perhaps you're listening to the wrong solo, Sasquamo. Try the Night Watch, for musicality if not technique, with not so common patterns in rock music; specially his tasteful use of 7ths and minor/major 6ths. Though for glimpse of more technical guitar playing then late Crimso is the nominated for showcase (not showoff) of skill.

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Jesus Gabriel


Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 13:20
Though I admire Fripp for his integrity and enjoy much of his music, I think it would take a certain personality type to work productively with him. Not me, that's for sure!

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The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning
And all the rest is just bullsh*t
-Steve Kilbey


Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:39
- Some of Fripp's advice to Bill led to highly original results. For example, I seem to remember he told Bill to use the cymbals as little as possible on DISCIPLINE.

- Judging from FOR ABSENT LOVERS, Bill certainly got his some of his own back on tour!

- I also have my doubts if you can all Fripp a 'great' guitarist. A superb rock composer, true. A highly intelligent player who can sound both fierce and very poetic, true. But I just cannot recall too many great Fripp solos. He has his moments, of course. Just listen to the wonderfully melancholic solo with which he concludes "Easy Money" on the USA album. But so many other guitarists are greater virtuosos! (Not that Fripp ever wanted to BE a virtuoso...)


Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:41
this thread is quickly becoming blasphemous



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I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.


Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:48
Come to think of it, the many solos on SCARY MONSTERS (AND SUPER CREEPS) are, of course, superb.


Posted By: XTChuck
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 14:53
Originally posted by laplace laplace wrote:

fripp rules indeed

16. Don't release an album called Beat.
 
God!!  That's the funniest thing I've heard in days.
 
Confused


Posted By: jmcdaniel_ee
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 15:01
2. His parts have lots of fills and major changes of textures;
3. His fills are dramatic; i.e., they shock.
These were my favorite aspects of Bill's drumming both w/Yes and 70's Crimson.  ESPECIALLY the major changes in textures.  To me, he never took a basic approach to anything.  Take the hits on Yes's "And You And I" during the heavily-reverbed mellotron part--not just cymbal crashes on every note.  I guess Fripp was wanting something drastically different and mechanical--a web of intertwined sound.  It was a specific re-direction that Fripp wanted to go in.  I also think this was a philosophical change in 80's music vs 70's--not just within the Crimson camp.


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 16:15
       
    "Villiam vee have vays of making you a better King Crimson Drummer"

Well at least Bob addressed the situation and look at all  the great stuff Crimson produced with Bruford. I have read some not so nice comments as well as some positive ones Bruford has made regarding his days with Crimson. 

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Posted By: Topographic
Date Posted: April 25 2007 at 18:18
Originally posted by pero pero wrote:

Originally posted by Topographic Topographic wrote:

Originally posted by pero pero wrote:

The man is sick. No wonder that he spent time in monastery.


Wrong Crimso percussionist.  You're thinking of Jamie Muir, the second percussionist on Larks' Tongues in Aspic . . . etc.

-Topographic
 
When I said monastery I meant of his ten month course in Sherborne. He wrote about his experience:
 


D'oh!Pinch  Sorry, I had LTIA on the brain.  I actually hadn't heard about Fripp's monastery stay--forgive me for totally n00bing out there.  Interesting, though, that there's two members of Crimso who had stays in monasteries.  Wink

As far as the actual rules that Fripp had, I do think Vibrationbaby brings up a very good point here.  With the 80's era of Crimso, I remember reading that Fripp's main concept was to create a sort of "rock gamelan" with interlocking rhythms.  Being mechanical would probably be very conducive to that.  Of course, seeing this, it's amazing to me that the two managed to co-exist in the same band for so many years.  From what I can tell, it seems that Bruford in general got along a lot better with Fripp than he did for Jon Anderson (who he had a couple of interesting "nicknames" for, if I remember right).  So in that regard, if Fripp can come up with these rules and still make good with Bruford, I would indeed say he is the man.  Bruford is too, of course.Wink

And laplace--Rule 16 really cracked me up.  Clap

-Topographic


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Have you rearranged your liver to the solid mental grace today?


Posted By: moebius
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 00:19
Can any extreme-fan of KIng Crimson (like I am) make a list of the songs or moments of songs that show in some way that Bill is doing his homework?
 
Something like: Number of the rule / song or excerpt that shows that rule applied (or not)
 
I´ll do it soon, I need some time. Meanwhile... do it for yourself !!!


Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 01:41
Does Discipline itself count as a "rule"? Thumbs%20Up

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Posted By: pero
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 02:30


And what's so great about Fripp's guitar playing?  I'm no guitar player, but I don't hear anything that great.  The solo on 21st Century Schizoid Man sounds truly dreadful and not very difficult to me.
[/QUOTE]
 
Sasquamo, dont make statements which could connect you with your avatar Confused
 
Avatar


Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 04:10
Amazing, Fripp is a unique character LOL
 
Well, who knows that it might have been helpful after all. And yes, all band leaders can sometimes be a bit... not easy to work with. 


Posted By: FruMp
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:38
I'm pretty sure that those rules are a joke of some sort, fripp seems like a sophisticated guy, his sense of humour is probably right up that alley.

If it's not a joke then fripp's a douche, even if those things may be true that is not the right way to put it to someone, that's just asking for conflict.


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Posted By: jmcdaniel_ee
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 12:34
Originally posted by moebius moebius wrote:

Can any extreme-fan of KIng Crimson (like I am) make a list of the songs or moments of songs that show in some way that Bill is doing his homework?
 
Something like: Number of the rule / song or excerpt that shows that rule applied (or not)
 
I´ll do it soon, I need some time. Meanwhile... do it for yourself !!!
 
10. If the part you're playing is boring, stop listening with your head;
11. If this still bores you, listen to the interaction between all the parts;
12. If this still bores you, stop playing and wait until you are no longer bored;

Bill can clearly be heard playing throughout "Man With An Open Heart."  He obviously forgot rule 12.  Good thing Fripp didn't apply this rule to the other bandmembers or they may have instead opted to include a cover of John Cage's 4'33".Big%20smile


Posted By: Soundscape42
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 13:06
I am no musician, so I can only sort of speak to the group dynamics aspect of these Frippian rules.  I have heard many bands speak of this idea of the music playing the band.  The Grateful Dead used that metaphor all the time when talking about the sort of spontaneous organic jams that evolved.  It is the same in life.  There is will (the enrgy we put into the things we want) and spirit (the willingness to accept where we end up by letting go of control).  Lets say that other members of the band are already involved in a solo and somehow brufords fills mask what the other member is doing, at that point you have one of the children yelling too loud in the midst of the others story...pay attention to me not him!  If this is what is happening, then there is a need to form rules of the sort Fripp offered.  I am not sure of any examples, and it could be that the nuances are so subtle that only someone with Fripps trained ear could notice it.  The band is ultimately bigger than the individuals especially with regards to Crimson.  It could take some training to learn how to handle being with a group where everyone wants their chance to tell their piece of the story.  And then if you have worked with other bands, there may be an almost mechanized motion that was perfectly appropriate in a band that was less likely to take cues from one another, but in this setting fails to connect.  It is a good life lesson, if we can learn it.  Look for the place that your voice fits and then insert your ideas.  We have all been in discussion groups in which someone is speaking and the other guy starts talking over the top of what you are saying.  It may be to emphasize something you do, but it takes your focus away, and disjoits your narrative.  So we kind of need Roberts Rules of Order to run a collective group such as Crimson.

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Posted By: darksideof
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 13:38
Originally posted by Atomic_Rooster Atomic_Rooster wrote:

Originally posted by Man Overboard Man Overboard wrote:

Heaven forbid a guy have an -aim-.


exactly!

No, not really, but I guess a good analogy might be:  KC was Fripp's child, and Bruford was taking it out back to the shed to roll some reefers, which I'm not saying is a bad thing per se, just not anything a parent would desire for their children.

Nahh, if Bruford didn't agree with Fripp, I'm sure he would have left, or wouldn't have come back later, plus he plenty of time to express himself fully on his solo albums, where his aims wouldn't distract from a cohesive jam.

Dead I probably sound like a Fripp fanboy now
I first thought he was really as asss, so cruel, but after reading your comment fripp's suggestion made a lot sense to bill. good info!!


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Posted By: omri
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 15:14
I'm no musician, a king crimson fan for many years and beat is the almost only studio albums I do not have (yet. I'm working on it).
The only thing I want to say is that you should judge a genious (and Fripp is one for sure) according to the results. I do not concider Discipline or Three of a perfect pair as their best works (most 70's output and Thrak and The power to believe are better IMO) but still many excellent tracks such as indiscipline, the sheltering sky, LTIA III and more so I would say he knew what he was doing.
I can not tell how great is his guitar playing but some of it sounds like nothing else and make me feel all sort of feelings such as caos and terror (in Red), desperation after the battle (in The battle of glass tears) so, it is very unique and I'm sure indicates the quality of playing.
I would probably fail to work with him but that is one reason why I never played with him (apart from not knowing to play, too young, live in the wrong country and many other reasons).


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omri


Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: April 26 2007 at 15:22
Originally posted by FruMp FruMp wrote:

I'm pretty sure that those rules are a joke of some sort, fripp seems like a sophisticated guy, his sense of humour is probably right up that alley.

If it's not a joke then fripp's a douche, even if those things may be true that is not the right way to put it to someone, that's just asking for conflict.
I agree. Anyone out there ever read Fripp`s diary. Some pretty dry humour in there. And remember: whenever music comes along that only King Crimson can play, King Crimson plays it.Wink


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Posted By: Kim Ankara
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 02:51
If he's serious I personally don't see the problem with it. If you had the best drummer in the world in your band, and you wanted him to play something simple, would you kick him out and bring in a Nick Mason type?

If he did so he wouldn't be able to utilise Bruford's "dramatic" style when the need arrived.


Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: April 28 2007 at 05:01
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

And there was me thinking from many a favourite jazz rock drummer, Bruford was one of the  most economic.........even less is much more???????????????
"Economic" or inspired, the work Bruford did with Moraz in the mid-1980s (definitely jazz) is phenomenal.  The man is a talented jazz drummer...



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