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Forgotten Son 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1356
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 Posted: December 02 2006 at 12:07 |
 Scapler wrote:
But the American people have, it is about time I stopped paying the price for what my ancestors did, I didn't do them, I am not responsible. In fact, my ancestors didn't do it either! Mine were still busy over in Ireland planting potatoes. This may be off topic, but I am so tired of the perception of the white man as evil and stupid. I have never commited crimes against humanity, and just because white racists did doesn't degrade or mark me. Racism and hate are universal, spread among all races like the seed of decay. It is about time race was abolished from people's thinking.
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This is a very good point. I myself started paying attention to this idea of apologising for things ancestors have done after Tony Blair made a public statement about the slave trade. I agree that we shouldn't really dwell upon these issues (though we shouldn't forget them either, knowledge of history is vital) as there are many crimes ongoing that we should be turning our attention on. Iraq, Darfur, Chechnya etc.
Tony R wrote:
There is a big difference between disliking American foreign policy and disliking Americans per se. |
Amen to that. To paraphrase Chomsky, the term anti-**** has totalitarian connotations. It's the kind of claim the Soviet government leveled at dissidents to defame them and their legitimate grievances with government policy. It's use seems to be unique to the US amongst the worlds "developed" nations.
Edited by Forgotten Son - December 02 2006 at 12:32
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jalas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 283
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Posted: December 02 2006 at 14:54 |
The US is such a devious country. One minute, they are helping everybody, the next minute they are killing everybody. I don't hate Americans. It's not their fault. They just live here and if they support this war on terror, lets just say that Education really sucks here and it took four years for the majority to turn against the War. Bush and the rest of the Republican party is gaining votes by metioning Jesus. God doesn't belong in world politics. That leads to crusades and Jihads and we all know where all of that leads. America is the source of so much suffering in the world. They make up for it eventually. To who they make it up, I don't know. All the opportunities that the Americans have doesn't come without a price. Americans do admit, freedom isn't free. Well, maybe I don't think the price is worth it. I am not going to be soft on this country because that is just not justice.
I ask myself from time to time, if I had the chance to live forever, would I? NO! Who wants to live forever on this planet full of misery? Not only that, but their aren't enough people who are trying to make things better because they fall asleep. They fall into a trance with luxury. I'll admit, luxury is fun, but it's my weakness and I wouldn't like to have that put against me. Most of us have that weakness anyways. What matters is if you're willing to recognize it or not. Art transcends all of this political talk. Art was created by God and for God and we all need to participate in one artform or another. It keeps us all from going insane. It's also a good way to express feelings, thus making a good way to understand humanity.
I was not put on this Earth to only make things better for myself. None of us were put on this Earth to only make things better for ourselves. We have to help each other out. It would be easier to help the victims of government by first acknowledging that Government is not a person. God told us to love God and our Neighbor as we would love ourselves. Government and laws are not people nor are they God. I don't have to love them if I don't want to. I can dislike the country where I am in. No country has authority over me. Countries and governments are inanimate things without soul and without compassion. The human element is what can be used to make things better but it usually gets perverted with corruption. There is no justice in American foreign policy, and with the golden rule, I will have to say that this country doesn't deserve love. Not until things get better, which I doubt they will unless the empire crumbles, then maybe I will have a little more love for this country. In the Meantime, I will go on the record and say that for me to love any country is against my religion.
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JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY!
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: December 02 2006 at 17:14 |
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"No country has authority over me."
This, of course, is not true and not only that it flies directly in the face of the Christianity you profess. Jesus said in Luke 20:25, Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's." He lived and died under the authority of ther Romans. The Apostle Paul also emphasized that living withinh the stucture of the Roman government was one of the most important things to do. He appealed his case to the Emperor and accepted the house arrest in Rome as his punishment, even though he had committed no crime.
The Romans were ffar more barbaric than the US gov't in how they treated their own citizens and both Paul and Christ advocated a grateful and humble respect for them.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: December 02 2006 at 18:01 |
Trademark wrote:
"No country has authority over me."
This, of course, is not true and not only that it flies directly in the face of the Christianity you profess. Jesus said in Luke 20:25, Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's." He lived and died under the authority of ther Romans. The Apostle Paul also emphasized that living withinh the stucture of the Roman government was one of the most important things to do. He appealed his case to the Emperor and accepted the house arrest in Rome as his punishment, even though he had committed no crime.
The Romans were ffar more barbaric than the US gov't in how they treated their own citizens and both Paul and Christ advocated a grateful and humble respect for them.
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There is more Trademark:
| Romans 13: 1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. |
It's clear the Bible preches respect and honor to your Government.
But lets be honest, I don't like to mix politics with Religion, but if a rabid Revolutionary uses Religion to support his opinions against his country, he'll better read his Bible.
Iván
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Arrrghus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5296
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Posted: December 02 2006 at 18:04 |
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TheProgtologist
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
Status: Offline
Points: 27802
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Posted: December 02 2006 at 18:54 |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65616
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Posted: December 02 2006 at 19:41 |
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Language, especially in written form, is such a complex, subtle and subjective thing...it is so easy to miscommunicate a feeling or comment. Emoticons help but not always. Peter, the geek pictures you've posted on my Star Wars thread, in your drunken late night meanderings, I've always found extremely funny. In the case of the verses here, I see why there was some confusion. If you make sure your true feelings on both sides of an issue are shown, I imagine your words would be taken with more levity.
BTW, I love Canadians and understand why there are mixed feelings when relating to the U.S.
Edited by Atavachron - December 02 2006 at 19:50
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Arrrghus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5296
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Posted: December 02 2006 at 20:36 |
Atavachron wrote:
Language, especially in written form, is such a complex, subtle and subjective thing...it is so easy to miscommunicate a feeling or comment. Emoticons help but not always. Peter, the geek pictures you've posted on my Star Wars thread, in your drunken late night meanderings, I've always found extremely funny. In the case of the verses here, I see why there was some confusion. If you make sure your true feelings on both sides of an issue are shown, I imagine your words would be taken with more levity.
BTW, I love Canadians and understand why there are mixed feelings when relating to the U.S.
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Yes, Peter stress his thoughts more clearly in this thread, that way we won't jump to conclusions on this post.
I love Canada, too!
(I did have a terrible experience there, and I still hold a grudge to Canada's security, but that is a different story for a different thread).
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OpethGuitarist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1655
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Posted: December 02 2006 at 22:44 |
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Hopefully one day their will be no need to label people and countries, what a fool's hope that is though.
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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Arrrghus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5296
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Posted: December 02 2006 at 23:00 |
OpethGuitarist wrote:
Hopefully one day their will be no need to label people and countries, what a fool's hope that is though.
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Is that good? Do we all want to be the same? Do we all want to lose our culture? I love the diversity. I'd appreciate a complete mutual love between countries more.
However, neither of our wishes will come true for a long time, or even forever. 
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 00:00 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
Peter,just because something offended me personally doesn't mean I hate you.I am just getting tired of anti-American sentiment everywhere I turn. |
No sweat, Jody -- I didn't think you hated me.
I understand your frustration, but I'm not America's enemy -- as old timers here might recall, I've defended America and American members here in the past, in the face of repeated hateful, blanket condemnation.
We've corresponded privately in difficult times for each of us in the past -- I think we know each other well enough to grant some leeway -- at least in hindsight.
I also remember why you, as a veteran, might take unflattering references to America's military to heart -- but I've corresponded with you privately on that matter too, as you'll recall. I made my respect clear. 
 This slow, faceless text medium will always be second best -- I'm sure we'd get along, face to face. We'd soon clear up these misunderstandings, shake hands, and laugh together again. 
Just to even things out, and diffuse this unfortunate "situation," I have been working on a silly little pro-America poem today (in my head, as I hauled wood) -- hope to lay it down here tomorrow, as a peace offering, and "oil on troubled waters." *
*(Not in the Exxon Valdez, polluting sense -- it's just an old expression -- but I won't promise Shakespeare or Byron, either!  )
Edited by Peter Rideout - December 03 2006 at 00:29
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 00:20 |
My love is as a fever, longing still
For that which longer nurseth the disease,
Feeding on that which doth preserve the ill,
The uncertain sickly appetite to please.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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OpethGuitarist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1655
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 00:23 |
Arrrghus wrote:
OpethGuitarist wrote:
Hopefully one day their will be no need to label people and countries, what a fool's hope that is though.
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Is that good? Do we all want to be the same? Do we all want to lose our culture? I love the diversity. I'd appreciate a complete mutual love between countries more.
However, neither of our wishes will come true for a long time, or even forever. |
It's not that we "need to be the same or different" but it shouldn't be a point of reference to describe people's thought. It's no more different to me then labeling people by hair color. We don't do that, we don't clump all red heads in a group. We know they are red heads, but we don't use it as a point of classification. The same should be done for any kind of genetic characteristic or environmental background. People should be judged by their minds, their thoughts, not judging their thought by things they can not change. I can not change that I am American and born in America. I should not be insulted or judged by it. I can not change my skin color. I should not be judged by it. I am not judged because I have brown hair. People do not go " oh look, its a brown hair" because that concept has been taken out of the public mind as a characteristic related with thought.
So yes, diversity is not good. It's another way of division and classification system. It's trading one classification system for another. Instead of judging by wealth, the class system of the past, now society is obsessed with country of origin and skin color. It's important to understand that their is diversity, but it should never be embraced. I respect people's thoughts and ideas. I could care less the physical characteristics or the country of origin of the person.
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 00:33 |
OpethGuitarist wrote:
Arrrghus wrote:
OpethGuitarist wrote:
Hopefully one day their will be no need to label people and countries, what a fool's hope that is though.
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Is that good? Do we all want to be the same? Do we all want to lose our culture? I love the diversity. I'd appreciate a complete mutual love between countries more.
However, neither of our wishes will come true for a long time, or even forever. |
It's not that we "need to be the same or different" but it shouldn't be a point of reference to describe people's thought. It's no more different to me then labeling people by hair color. We don't do that, we don't clump all red heads in a group. We know they are red heads, but we don't use it as a point of classification. The same should be done for any kind of genetic characteristic or environmental background.
People should be judged by their minds, their thoughts, not judging their thought by things they can not change. I can not change that I am American and born in America. I should not be insulted or judged by it. I can not change my skin color. I should not be judged by it. I am not judged because I have brown hair. People do not go " oh look, its a brown hair" because that concept has been taken out of the public mind as a characteristic related with thought.
So yes, diversity is not good. It's another way of division and classification system. It's trading one classification system for another. Instead of judging by wealth, the class system of the past, now society is obsessed with country of origin and skin color.
It's important to understand that their is diversity, but it should never be embraced. I respect people's thoughts and ideas. I could care less the physical characteristics or the country of origin of the person.
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nice, work on that idea, but do not expect people to change their preconceptions, just make yourself aware that these excist. and stop yourself from concidering preconceptions as faulted, as they are part of your protective shell.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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OpethGuitarist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1655
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 00:36 |
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^^ i don't expect them to change, it's obviously my point of view
this is exactly why I typically don't get in these kind of debates in the first place and keep to music discussion, no offense to you tuxon
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back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums
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jalas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 283
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 16:41 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Trademark wrote:
"No country has authority over me."
This, of course, is not true and not only that it flies directly in the face of the Christianity you profess. Jesus said in Luke 20:25, Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's." He lived and died under the authority of ther Romans. The Apostle Paul also emphasized that living withinh the stucture of the Roman government was one of the most important things to do. He appealed his case to the Emperor and accepted the house arrest in Rome as his punishment, even though he had committed no crime.
The Romans were ffar more barbaric than the US gov't in how they treated their own citizens and both Paul and Christ advocated a grateful and humble respect for them.
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There is more Trademark:
| Romans 13: 1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. |
It's clear the Bible preches respect and honor to your Government.
But lets be honest, I don't like to mix politics with Religion, but if a rabid Revolutionary uses Religion to support his opinions against his country, he'll better read his Bible.
Iván |
IF country represents things that go against God, like Murder and Injustice, I will not give respect and honor. I do follow the law. I pay my taxes, I don't run the speed limit, I don't drink, I don't do anything that is against the law. Speaking out against this country is not against the law. I'm just not giving respect or honor where it's not due. I have read my Bible and I have battled with these thoughts. I follow the law, but God is the final Authority for me.
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JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY!
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 16:53 |
Trademark wrote:
"No country has authority over me."
This, of course, is not true and not only that it flies directly in the face of the Christianity you profess. Jesus said in Luke 20:25, Render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's." He lived and died under the authority of ther Romans. The Apostle Paul also emphasized that living withinh the stucture of the Roman government was one of the most important things to do. He appealed his case to the Emperor and accepted the house arrest in Rome as his punishment, even though he had committed no crime.
The Romans were ffar more barbaric than the US gov't in how they treated their own citizens and both Paul and Christ advocated a grateful and humble respect for them.
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First off, don't take Bible quotes out of context. That really cheeses me off.First off the Pharisees were trying to catch Jesus into saying something so they could hand him over to the government. So they asked about taxes. And at the time Caesar's face was on the coins.
Second, if you read the Bible in John, chapter 19, Pilate tells Jesus he has the power to free him or crucify him. Jesus replies "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above." Therefore the only reason that Rome had this so-called power over Jesus was because it fitted into God's plan to bring salvation to the world.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 16:59 |
progismylife wrote:
First off, don't take Bible quotes out of context. That really cheeses me off.First off the Pharisees were trying to catch Jesus into saying something so they could hand him over to the government. So they asked about taxes. And at the time Caesar's face was on the coins.
Second, if you read the Bible in John, chapter 19, Pilate tells Jesus he has the power to free him or crucify him. Jesus replies "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above." Therefore the only reason that Rome had this so-called power over Jesus was because it fitted into God's plan to bring salvation to the world. |
It pisses me off more when people use Religion to justify radical political positions.
Jalas said: "No country has authority over me."
False Romans 13: 1-7 clearly states your Government has power over you if you believe in the Bible. If you want to use the Bible as a pretext (What is wrong IMO) then use it completely, not just the parts that fir to your purpose like our friend Jalas.
God could never approve a Christian who supports a criminal terrorist as Che Guevara.
Iván
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 17:06 |
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Nothing here is out of context at all so be sheesed at someone else. You are imputing motive where you have no specific knowledge. Also, If you had taken the time to really read the post you's notice that the actual point was that Jesus had the power (being fully God and fully human) to free himself, but instead he SUBMITTED HIMSELF to the authority of Pilate, and later Pasul did the same with respect to his arrest. Peter later did the same again. The only one of the disciples who thumbed his nose at authority was Judas and he paid dearly for it (loss of Salvation, not loss of life)
They did so voluntarity out of the deepest respect for God.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
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Posted: December 03 2006 at 17:09 |
Being a reverends son I am really sorry about jumping to conclusions once again  I am so ashamed.
On a lighter note it's cheesed not sheesed.
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