Don't deny the truth.

 

Peace.

 

not really.  Religion and politics don't mix all together.  But, ask yourself this:  If Jesus were with us right now in the flesh, would he be accused of being a communist?  The communists do attack religion pretty harshly, but I understand, because politicians always use religion for political gain. 

 

Jalas makes a good point.  The Beatitudes are one of the most socialist things out there.  "The meek shall inherit the earth."  Doesn't get more communist than that.

 

I wouldn't call America an empire.

 

We're not nearly noble enough to earn that.

 

There are similar accountings done for Native Americans and also to the Africans!  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29

 

That is what seems most likely to me.

My physics teacher did tell me about the giant tsunami though, something like a volcano off the azores is bound to erupt...

 

Wow, glad I'm not crazy, (I only knew 1 person besides me who ever said the US will ever fall).

 

The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the nation (*), the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations. The first obligation of every citizen must be to work both spiritually and physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts). We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.

 

Very nice...very advanced...very proletarian.

 

You know who wrote it?

 

Adolf Hitler - Mein Kampf - The 25 point Program of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP)

 

The first time I read it I laughed when Socialistrs in the University called all of us who were fro the centre or moderate right Facists  Facism and Nazism are closer to Communism and Socialism than any Liberal or right oriented ideology.

 

That's why I think that Communism ands Socialism (In this case National Socialism ) are a danger against all civilized societies and a catapult for any dictator and or Genocide, not entuioning that all this is an utopic belief.

 

There will always be rich and poor, if not the owners and producers will be the Government officials and party members.

 

Iván

 

(*) Replaced the word Reich for nation, becausae it would have been too obvious.

 

Socialism is based in   "dialectical materialism" , which was invented in 1887 by Joseph Dietzgen, being clear that dialectical materialism is against any form of Religion and priestly cast, it's against Christianism essentially.

 

 

 

Iván, what happens today (say in the last 30-40 years) is that the Social-Democracy, most notable in the Scandinavian countries, is considered, by many, a "synonim" of Socialism (which isn't).

 

Other people mention the experiences in some Israeli kibbutzim years ago, which for me is much more a type of Cooperativism than Socialism, but pardeus there are so many approaches to the issue that confusion is unavoidable!

 

Good point, as a fact most countries have the peak of their performnmances in sports during Dictatorships.

 

People will be happy if their team is world champion even if they don't have what to eat and dictators know this, so they support sports, in Perú there are strikes every day except when the national football team plays .

 

Also sports are usually misused as propaganda about a system, Hitler wanted to win Berlin Olimpics to prove how superior the Arian race was, for his bad luck he found Jesse Owens, USSR didn't have enough for their people but they invested millions in sports and Ballet.

 

So never use sports as a way to know how good a country is doing

 

USA is going down in sports because an athlete wants to gain 5'000,000 for throwing a havelin, 20'000,000 for a Box fight, 10'000,000 for a golf tournament.

 

When USA forms a Davis Cup team, they usually have troubles because the pro tennis players don't want to play for their country, the same happens with a lot of sports.

 

Professional sports, TV, Nike, etc are killing sports in USA.

 

Iván

 

That's what happened with Japan after WW2, now they have the most powerful economy in the world.

 

So is China, and we all know how well they're doing now.

 

Not all of China is communist though.

 

Which parts? Tibet?

 

The problem with Hitler was that he was crazy and a racist.  apart from all the terrible things that he did, the people still loved him.  He was leading Germany into a prosperous future.  Ideally, socialism is good, but you can't be a racist.  You can think of the good things that Hitler did.  People do that all the time with Bush.  His supporters always have to mention all the "good" things that he's done.  Hitler to socialism is like Bush to Christianity.

 

By the way, I don't like to mix my Christianity with politics, which is why I think socialism is ideal.  A socialist democratic nation will be even better.  I wish Canada were warmer.

Why in hell does Chavez (Self proclaimed Socialist) had to support a Nationalist candidate in Perú and even worst when this puppet dictator wannabe lost the elections, Mr Chavez is paying Bolivia to put their headquarters in Peruvian fronteer.

 

I lived in once liberal, then Communist, then Socialist and now Liberal Country again so I know what Socialism really is.

 

Iván

I am a socialist, because ideally, it would be good.  I do not give my heart to any country at all.  There is no such thing as a clean government.  Democracy is a nice idea also.  I choose socialism, though, because, although communists say religion is unnecessary, it is the Christian thing to do.  Being a socialist allows me to be a traditional Christian which you can read more about in Chapters 1-3 in the book of Acts. 

I like to compromise though.  I will say that if socialism and democracy can beat each other, they should just join.  A socialist democratic nation is what I want. 

When it comes to Chaves, like I said before, there is no such thing as a clean government.

 

Phrenology

 

I didn't heard that word since my classes of Criminology, it was considered archaic in 1901

 

But of course any fascistoid dictator will believe that Physicall characteristics determine intelligence and criminal tendencies, if not ask Stalin who murdered Gypsies, Jewishs and other racial minorities.

 

Iván

 

This is what I don't like about these debates.  People who have lived in worse situations always have to go and say "hey, you don't know what you're talking about".  Understand that I know what I'm doing.  I live in the US and I read and I study and I talk to my father who was a refugee from El Salvador because of the Civil war.

 

The word terrorist, by definition, can be used to describe the leaders of the United States.  There is no such thing as a good or a bad guy.  I like to think my utopian thoughts because it's all that truly matters in this world.  Everybody will not change, but individually, we can take care of each other.  Now, where you contradicted me, It just seems like a matter of relativity.  I know that a socialist government can't exist, but a democratic government can't truly exist either.  Relalistically, we should have both.  what's so bad about wanting that?  I know it's not socialism, but at least everyone has a real chance to live a descent life.  Canada is a good example of what I think is ideal. 

 

Also, I wanted to ask, did you actually contradict that El Che did not die for his cause?  I think you just confirmed it.  Plus, it really doesn't matter where he's from.  The People of Cuba faught the revolution which just goes to show that they didn't seem to have a problem with him at the time.  Now it seems like Cubans really hate Castro because Cuba is so poor.  They seem to forget the embargo that the US has on it.  Castro has a lot of money, but what do you expect from any world leader? 

 

Hey, If I'm happy thinking what I think and if my way of thinking doesn't harm anybody, then let me think this way.  I only mean well.  I have to listen to how everybody else thinks and I just let them.  The US has created so many problems in this world and I'm just tired of it.  We have so much STUFF in this country.   We have enough to keep the people quiet, but it all comes at a very high price.  So many people have to die for us to stay this way.  I don't think it's worth it if the rich have so much money.  The Rich are just going to have to be force to share what they don't use.

 

Peace

Jose

 

I can't talk about other religions, but Catholic Church clearly stated that Soxcuialism, Communism and Catholicism are not compatoible, Liberation Theology has been condemned by John Paul II, the most evident example is when he reprewnded Father Ernesto Cardenal in Nicaragua in front of the Sandinist Party leaders and the whole world for accepting a political Position in the Sandinist Goverbnment.

 

So if priests do that is at their own will, but they don'r represent the Catholic Church.

 

It's funny to read at the end of that page quotes from a dictator as Hugo Chavez, they had no Christian leader to support this claims.

 

Iván

 

I can think of funnier things Ivan ... like the fact that you and I had this kind of discussion dozens of times before

 

To all you relative newcomers just remember that Socialism is like (ahem) a red flag to this "terrible" Ivan ...

 

Cheers, my friend!

 

Hi Martin, I miss our multi-color threads (As my Religion v Atheism with Sean that was respectfully interrupted by Sean for Christmas 2005 ), those were the ones!!!!!

 

Hope you come back.

 

Iván

 

 

Shafting the UK? Over 300,000 Americans died to protect your country, and the rest Europe, to criticize them is wrong. 

 

USA is far from perfect that's OK, no country is perfect.

 

But if it wasn't for USA, UK would have a Fuhrer instead of a Prime Minister or the Wall of Berlin would have been placed in Dublin if the USSR won, so better thank the help instead of attacking the ones who saved your butts.

 

Like it or not, USA was the only country that kept USSR from invading all Europe.

 

Iván

 

Now I find myself being attacked for whatever else I stand for.  I am a Christian because I am a Christian.  I am a socialist because I don't think that any one person is greater than the next regardless of how much education they have and how much wealth they have accumilated.  We all know what it feels like to have pain so we should all know if we are hurting someone because we should want to know of a better way.  I don't believe that democracy in the United States is allowing this kind of generosity to flourish with all it's free trade and competition which closes small business down, creates poor jobs, lays off people to send the work elsewhere and keeps us quiet with television. 

 

This is why democracy works.  It works for the greedy who are always there waiting to see who they are going to devour next.  I don't want to live in this country anymore because I become one of those that contributes to the destruction of lives.  I am not worthy of having more than my neighbors. 

 

Now what is so bad about me thinking this way?  I am a peaceful person who just happens to believe that El Che Guevara was a genuine person who was actually fighting for what is right.  You can believe whatever you want to believe, but as long as we are willing to listen to each other, we cannot be attacking each other.  I am a deep believer in the Golden rule and you don't even have to be a Christian to believe in such a thing.  It's a universal rule that can bring more understanding.  even if the world will never get together to follow this rule, we can at least start individually.  Again, what's so bad about me thinking this way? 

 

The good thing about socialism is that Religion is ignored.  It is never used for political gain.  Even if the government outlaws my religion, it will never stop me from worshiping.  I believe that my God is the final authority and there is no law above him.  No government will ever stop me from talking.  What's so bad about thinking the way I think?

 

Will I cause harm to you by believing that there is always a better way?  I want to find the better way without leaving out a single person from the solution.  Everyone should benefit.

 

Now again, my question is, how do you think this empire will fall?  It is an empire in tradition even if it has to do with business.  Empires have always been business related.

 

 

 

My favourite mirth inducing, concerns more than a few other ally countries. Most to a man decried apartheid. However, Australia and America both used and abused the indigenous tribes of both these countries, but not a word was/is spoken about the treatment of these peoples. We keep hearing how these 2 continents were founded, unfortunately they were already populated. But, that didn't stop them claiming for king and country (England), for the ignorant majority.

 

Long live ignorance.

 

First, the USA will have to become an empire.

http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/nav2/gamma/n2CoreLibs/n2CoreLibs-n2v1-57871.css -

 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Don't tralk about the latter half of the cold war, talk about the 50's and early 60's when the wall was built, if there was no USA taking care of Europe the USSR would not had stoppede in Berlin, as I said, probably in Dublin.

So that gives license for America to abuse human rights and regularly break international law without my (justified) criticism?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Allies and partners in crime.

 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: So that gives license for America to abuse human rights and regularly break international law without my (justified) criticism?

 

 

 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: My post about USA backing England was in reply to a post complaining against USA by an Englamnd, so your comment is at leas unnecassary.

Are you referring to me? Rest assured I condemn all acts of attrocity, I'm no nationalist hypocrite taking swipes at another nation. I'm fully aware of my nations crimes.

 
There are plenty of other examples.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: As I said USA is not perfect and my first post in this hread was to criticize the wall, but I prefer them rather than any Communist Government.

To live in, I whole-heartedly agree. However, for the people in third world countries that are subjected to US imperialism there's little to choose between the two.

 

Cuba not a danger for the region? Have you ever studied history?

 

Maybe you haven’t read about the missile crisis in October 1868 because Cuba allowed USSR to place their missiles at 80 miles from USA coasts and place humanity in risk of a nuclear war.

 

Do you know that all the terrorist movements of South America received training in Cuba, they exported their revolution to countries that didn’t wanted it.

 

When MRTA took hostages in the Japanese Embassy in Perú, the terrorists asked for a pass to Cuba, how casual!!

 

About Nicaragua, it’s easy today to say that it is not a new Cuba because Daniel Ortega and his comrades got used to live in the big houses of the former Government members but in that moment, nobody knew what was going to happen.

 

Remember that even USA helped Fidel because he lied about his revolution not being Communist, so I understand if USA couldn’t afford to take risks in Nicaragua.

 

Now, lets talk about Indonesia, yes USA supported them with money (Apparently) but in the meanwhile USSR and China invaded with their armies Afghanistan and Tibet, two countries that didn’t wanted them, Stalin killed more people than Hitler, USSR crushed the Praga Spring back in 1968 or 1969 with their armies in a foreign country.

 

They also divided Germany and Europe with a wall (A stupid mistake USA could commit now) that is worst, sometimes in politics you have to choose between two evils and stay with the lesser danger.

 

BTW: I’m a Latin American from the third world and I feel safer now that there’s no USSR because I don’t have to wake every morning asking myself if  another Nixon in USA or a Bureaucrat in the Kremlin will press the damn button and blow all of us from the face of earth.

 

So yes the world is a safer place without USSR and despite I don’t agree with everything USA does we have to thank them among others for taking that threat from our lives.

 

Iván

 

It's nice how America is completely bashed like there's no tomorrow while the other countries are either suspiciously ignored or treated like heaven on earth (excepting of course the communism talk).

 

I could shoot my mouth off all day about how much of a sh*thole England is (I don't think that. hypothetical.) but I would have little credibilty added to my argument since I've never lived there.

 

 

Here's a bandwagon, folks, why don't you all just jump on it:

 

 

 

 

 

We already gave him too much food.

 

Iván

 

I laughed

 

Not a personal inctment of you, Jody. Good job.

 

Cuba was screwed over by the United States.  90 to 100% of the Business in Cuba, prior to the revolution, was American owned.  Castro came and had overwhelming support.  Quickly, he set up programs to take the Land that the Americans had taken control of and he distributed it among peasants who never owned land.  He also pushed for free education and medicine.  Unfortunately, this didn't happen because Castro needed money and the US did all it could do to keep money from going there.  Now, the country is really poor and nobody seems to recognize that the US has a lot to do with the poverty.

 

Now, Cuba being a threat was not exactly a popular view outside of the United States.  When Kennedy told the Mexican President that the Cubans were a threat,  The Mexican president said that he could not be part of this because if he told his people that Cuba were a threat, a Million Mexicans would die laughing.

 

After WWII, the US got control of Israel which is responsible for some horrific atrocities in the Middle East which goes ignored in the American Media.  The UN, which the US helped create, is now being questions by Americans because they don't know if the UN can be trusted or not.  What the UN does is block the US from controling more countries.  The UN was ignored and now we control Afghanistan and Iraq. 

 

So many people have died.  So many people have to suffer.  The US isn't making things any better.  The US is run by interests groups.  They are the ones that make the decisions.  The problem with this is that greedy people tend to not care about other people's feelings.  There main interest is to make more money and sometime, sacrifices have to be made.  The common man has to realize that those sacrifices bring profit which does not benefit the masses as much as it could. 

 

Money is a very powerful thing.  It's a god to many people who do anything for it.  IF something has that much power over somebody, than maybe we should try not to focus on it as much.  Like when freedom of religion should keep any religious views out of government, so should money.  Money and Religion are two things that are powerful enough to create followers that can disregard consequences for others.  What bothers me the most is how unjust all of this is.  A person will go and rob a liquor store, probably kill a person, and take the money out of desperation.  Small time crooks usually steal out of neccessity.  It's wrong but sometimes a person gets hungry.  A CEO is well fed living in a very confortable house with a nice car and a secure job.  This CEO goes and lays off a bunch of Americans and sends the work elseware where work is cheaper.  They say they are making Jobs for very desperate people, but they continue to ignore the conditions of the factories and pay the people just enough to eat.  They could pay a little more.  They did pay the Americans descent wages and the Standard of living in this other country is very low.  It would hurt to pay descent wages, but they don't because they don't have too.  They know that desperation will guarentee workers.  The worst part is that American capitalism allows this kind of atrocitie to happen. 

 

Sure, a social democracy is not socialism, but it's not democracy either.  It's both, mixed to favor everyone.  What's so bad about that?  I know that Socialism won't work on it's own, but I can still be a socialist because I care about the common man.  I am one of these common men.  Most of us are.