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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 12:43
Jalas, i have one simple question for you. Are you a citizen of the US? I respecty your right to your opinions. you'll undoubtedly grow as you get older and realize that some of what you believe at the present is a bit naive. Mosat of it falls outside of my range of specific knowledge and experience.

BUT, here's food for thought:

I have noticed you have mentioned several times that you've come to this country with your father. You've also used the word "we" when talking about the US. So my question is are you a citizen? If you are, congratulations. If not, I would propose that you have NO RIGHT to use the word "we" when discussing the US for better or for worse.
    

Edited by Trademark - November 28 2006 at 12:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 12:44
They can bash all they want.  there is no perfect government so all government deserves bashing.  It helps to keep things in line.  Besides, The people in Finland may not know anything about the United States, but I'm sure, being an American citizen that they are more informed about world affairs.  Knowing as much as they do about the rest of the world, they can easily identify where the United States is playing a role. 
 
The Kung people, Hunter Gatherers from Southern Africa, make fun of somebody who has achieved something great, like kill a big animal for food.  They make fun of that person in order to humble him so that no one is above anyone and everyone is equal.  They poke fun at each other in good fun, but it helps to keep the community together.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 12:49
Originally posted by jalas jalas wrote:

They can bash all they want.  there is no perfect government so all government deserves bashing.  It helps to keep things in line.  Besides, The people in Finland may not know anything about the United States, but I'm sure, being an American citizen that they are more informed about world affairs.  Knowing as much as they do about the rest of the world, they can easily identify where the United States is playing a role. 
 
The Kung people, Hunter Gatherers from Southern Africa, make fun of somebody who has achieved something great, like kill a big animal for food.  They make fun of that person in order to humble him so that no one is above anyone and everyone is equal.  They poke fun at each other in good fun, but it helps to keep the community together.
 
Well my problem isn't them bashing the government. It's them bashing everything else just because the government is worth bashing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 13:09
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

Jalas, i have one simple question for you. Are you a citizen of the US? I respecty your right to your opinions. you'll undoubtedly grow as you get older and realize that some of what you believe at the present is a bit naive. Mosat of it falls outside of my range of specific knowledge and experience.

BUT, here's food for thought:

I have noticed you have mentioned several times that you've come to this country with your father. You've also used the word "we" when talking about the US. So my question is are you a citizen? If you are, congratulations. If not, I would propose that you have NO RIGHT to use the word "we" when discussing the US for better or for worse.
    
 
I didn't say I came with My father.  My father came and then I was born.  I am a US citizen and not proud of it.  My ideas are not without reason.  Read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn before you say that my arguements are naive.  We do have the freedom to read whatever we want.  everyday I have to be exposed to propaganda with comercials and the News channels that are controled by big business.  I am taking my freedom and expressing what I have noted and I am troubled because I always have to deal with people who say that I say what I say without reason.  I could say the same about the person that supports a nation that has been the cause of misery throughout the world.  I can say that that person does not think about his fellow human beings.
 
I just want to be fair.  I'm willing to comprimise, but those that oppose me and anybody else who thinks like me has to be willing to compromise too.  We have reached a point in this country where the masses are being put to sleep by all the comforts that life has to offer.  Life keeps getting easier and easier for Americans.  Unfortunately, this keeps the people from being humanitarians because we are indoctrinated from a very early age to be individualists.  It didn't matter how many people were kicked out of Palm Beach when contractors decided to build city place.  City Place is like an outdoor mall here in south Florida that people actually have appartments in.  These apartments are very highly priced so only the "elite" have the ability to move in.  Where city Place is now used to be what people would call the ghetto.  Instead of helping the poor with a city beautification project, they made the people sell their houses while they were still cheep and made them move further west, away from the beach and away from the rich people.  Then, they tore down the houses and built city place and everyone just forgot about how the place used to be. 
 
This individualism and capitalism, and competition that the the US promotes, allows this kind of injustice to happen.. People don't care what happens to their neighbors, capitalist don't care about anyone, and competion means that there will be losers which means that there will be poor people living miserable lives.  I thank Jesus that he came into my life, otherwise I would have been miserable myself.  It's only the capitalists that feel miserable when they are poor, but I am not a capitalist, so money is just not the first thing on my mind.  we have to be able to understand each other before we deal with money because nobody is better than anybody else and Jesus came to give us all a chance.  Why should a government be allowed ignore the cries of the unfortunate?  What right do they have if the one and only real authority, Jesus, will allow anybody into heaven that aknowledges his existence?  I know not everyone is a Christian, but this is something that everyone should understand.  a rich man will feel if he gets stabbed in the leg.  So would a poor man.  A rich man laughs and cries and feels angry, so does a poor man.  The rich man wants to protect his interest.  So does a poor man.  Now where to compromise?  Maybe the rich man should realize that he has lots of money that he will never use.  Maybe the rich man should realize that being generous will protect his interest even more before no one will be motivated to bring him down.  If an entire community could be brought together in order make things better, everyone's interests will be protected and everyone will be happy, and who know, everyone might start sharing.
 
This is very Idealistic of me, I know, but that doesn't mean that I am wrong nor that you are wrong in believing what you want.  true democracy is also a lost cause but it seems like it works, but at the expense of many lives.  We can at least compromise individually to make things better for each other.  The rich will always be there and so will the poor, but we are better than that if we wanted to be.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 13:37
I simply asked one question and gave my reasons for asking. You answered the question in one sentence and I thank you for that clarification. The bulk of your reply was far outside the framework of the question. You're welcome to your opinions, as I clearly stated when framing the question.
    
    

Edited by Trademark - November 28 2006 at 13:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 13:39
sorry, sometimes I get carried away and I can't help it. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 15:45
I find your reply to Trademark very shocking, won't quote it all because it would exceed the limits of the posts frame.
 
Originally posted by jalas jalas wrote:

 
I didn't say I came with My father.  My father came and then I was born.
 
According to your previous information, your family life was in danger in El Salvador (If I'm not wrong) because of the war between the Government and FMLN.
 
Shouldn't you be grateful to a country that received your father with open arms saving his life and for that reason your right to be born?
 
Why did your father choosed USA instead of a Socialist paradise? Probably he was searching for a free environment where he was allowed to teach whatever he wants, something that doesn't happen in Communist or Socialist countries.
 
I know two guys who left Perú during the late years of the USSR to study Medicine in the Patrice Lumumba University and came back because in two years they received 10 classes of Marxism and one or two of Anathomy when they wanted to be MD's and not politicians.
 
I am a US citizen and not proud of it. 
 
Simply shocking, you're an inmigrant's son, USA gave you and your family everything you have, you studied probably in a public school with money provided by USA Government, you have the chance to be at College supported by USA Government with tax exemptions.
 
You may disagree, but to say you're not proud of your coiuntry is something I can't understand, you can disagree with the GOVERNMENT but not about your country and still use it to study and live in.
 
I have to be exposed to propaganda with comercials and the News channels that are controled by big business.
 
Well, at least you have a TV with hundreed of chanells to choose, I been in Cuba (Even though in a Resort) and the National TV has two chanells, one that spends all day making propaganda to the Revolutionary Government and the other obne with Revolutionary shows.
 
The Doctors and engineers are allowed to work in the Resorts for 140 pesos a month (US$ 20,00) cleaning restrooms and serving drinks, but they are not allowed to enter to them if they don't work.
 
You're studying a career and you surely will make money of it in a free country, you should at least thank for that.
 
And if you still are not proud of being a USA citizen you shoud leave your native country, resign to your citizenship and find a couuntry about which you are proud.
 
 I am taking my freedom and expressing what I have noted and I am troubled because I always have to deal with people who say that I say what I say without reason.  I could say the same about the person that supports a nation that has been the cause of misery throughout the world.  I can say that that person does not think about his fellow human beings.
 
A country that gave your father and family the chance to survive and allows you to talk with FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, something you don't find in most Socialist countries.
 
  Maybe the rich man should realize that he has lots of money that he will never use.  Maybe the rich man should realize that being generous will protect his interest even more before no one will be motivated to bring him down.  If an entire community could be brought together in order make things better, everyone's interests will be protected and everyone will be happy, and who know, everyone might start sharing.
 
Clap (Sarcasm smiley) Bill Gates and Mr. Hilton have more money than he can spend in 100 life terms, so lets take it and give oit to the poor. LOL
 
Do you have an idea how many people work IN THE WORLD for Microsoft and business related with Microsoft products? Do you believe that if you take the money of Mr. Gates to give it to the poor anybody else will invest in a huge corporation and help millions of people to have a decent job?
 
Take the money from Mr. Hilton, have you ever stopped to think how many preople works around the world in the hundreeds of Hiltoon Hotels, this people have a family to support and lives thanks to Mr. Hilton's vision, I wouldn't put a hotel if I wasn't allow to gain the profit I want and almost nobody would.
 
Perú is in the ruin because there's not enough rich people willoing to invest, you know why???
 
Because Mr. Juan Velazco Alvarado a Socialist Militar dictator threw the USA corporation called Inthernational Petroleum Company and paid them nothing, since then the private invvestors think twice before risking their money in a coubntry without a stable political system.
 
Mr Alan García (Social Democrat) in first Government declared a moratory for our external debt, the World Fund deeclared us high risk country and investors runned away, then because he was desperate for money decided to take the banks from their right owners (He didn't had success in that) took our savings in dollars and paid it in solesa with a 7'000,000% inflation (Yes SEVEN MILLION PERCENT),
 
So if you deposited US$ 10,000.00 he changed it into soles at that moment rate and didn't allowed you to take your money in soles from the bank untoil after a year, so at that point you were lucky if your money was worth one dollar, because with a seven million inflation and 30% onual of interests you lost all your money. 
 
Now we have 50% of the people without job or earning less than US$ 200.00 a month, today Mr. Garcia (Elected again after 11 years) is signing the Free Trade Treaty with USA and offered to pay the external debt because he knows that we can't be isolated from the rest of the world..
 
We need more rich people who come here to gain money but at the same time invest in big factories and give a decent job to the millions of Peruvians who lack of one.
 
But still with the problems, I'm proud of being a Peruvian and thankful to a country that allowed me to study a career despite my mother paid private school and university without being rich and knowing I will not be rich.
 
This is very Idealistic of me, I know, but that doesn't mean that I am wrong nor that you are wrong in believing what you want.  true democracy is also a lost cause but it seems like it works, but at the expense of many lives. 
 
So you are against democracy??? In democracy the President can be an a$$hole but you at least know that after 4 or 5 years you can vote against him. Dictators are for live, you can't change them and if you dare to publicly contradict them, you will probably end in jail accused of attempting against the revolution.
 
I'm sure you're well intentioned but honestly appart from naive you don't know how to thank the country that helped you to be who you are and speak with absolute freedom.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 28 2006 at 21:04
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 20:47
That was very well said, Ivan.

Jalas, the situation you're describing in America mostly applies to everywhere else in the world.  You talk about all the poor people in America, and I laugh because our poor people are so much better off than those of most countries.  From what you've been saying, I think you could go to every single country in the world and you'd still have the same complaints.  America's a great county, do you know how much hope it has given people for a better life throughout its existence.  Not to mention all of the new countries that were inspired by the US Constitution to gain independence and form democracies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 20:56
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

That was very well said, Ivan.Jalas, the situation you're describing in America mostly applies to everywhere else in the world.  You talk about all the poor people in America, and I laugh because our poor people are so much better off than those of most countries.  From what you've been saying, I think you could go to every single country in the world and you'd still have the same complaints.  America's a great county, do you know how much hope it has given people for a better life throughout its existence.  Not to mention all of the new countries that were inspired by the US Constitution to gain independence and form democracies.

     


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 20:56
Originally posted by Sasquamo Sasquamo wrote:

That was very well said, Ivan.

Jalas, the situation you're describing in America mostly applies to everywhere else in the world.  You talk about all the poor people in America, and I laugh because our poor people are so much better off than those of most countries.  From what you've been saying, I think you could go to every single country in the world and you'd still have the same complaints.  America's a great county, do you know how much hope it has given people for a better life throughout its existence.  Not to mention all of the new countries that were inspired by the US Constitution to gain independence and form democracies.
 
Thanks but don't misunderstand me. USA is far from perfect, the system has flaws and please the homeless living bellow the bridges or in boxes are not better than anybody else. I try to be honest, I'm not a USA fanvboy ar want an American way of life, I'm happy in my country despite our problems but what is fair is fair, USA is a free country.
 
Democracy is the worst system except for all the rest.
 
My problem is that a person can't hate his own country and less a country that received his family, I don't care if it's USA, China or Singapore, if a country received my father and gave me the chance to study and work (taking the oportunity to a natural born citizen) because I'm a refugee, the only decent and moral thing I can do is thank them or at least respect them.
 
You can disagree with the GOVERNMENT (You have the chance to vote against them)  but you can't say you're not proud of the nation you have been born and made you the person you are.
 
USA is not the paradise but I prefer the worst democracy and freedom than the best  Dictatorship and USA is neither the best or the worst democracy, it's a free country and that is enough for me.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 28 2006 at 21:06
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:09
ah come on.  The poor in this country may be better off than others in other countries, but those that are poor in other countries are those that have been screwed over by world powers.  The US is the cause of a lot of this poverty.  Also, why can't I question the government that "Welcomed" my father?  The only reason I still live in this country is because My mother has most of her family here.  The rest of my family on my father's side moved to Canada because they found it more accepting. 
 
I don't belong in a capitalist country.  I don't care if I lose everything that I have because I know that there are better things that I can do with my life than indulge in luxuries.  Right now, I am in school, but as soon as I get the chance, I will become a missionary so that I can help the oppressed.  I do not plan to live here forever.  It's against my beliefs to stay here, but please don't push me.  I still have to think about money for transportation and family that I will leave behind. 
 
I don't owe this country anything.  If it hadn't been for the aid that Carter and Reagan gave to the dictatorship in El Salvador, I probably wouldn't be here.  I probably would not have been born, but I would have rather not been born than to know that so many Salvadorans died with US support and the American public just ignores this. 
 
You know, government can't shut me up.  If I am not allowed to say whatever I want in a country, it wouldn't make a difference to me because Jesus is the only Authority that controls my life and if I die for what I say, I will only be a Martyr.  I just want to serve.  I think the way I do because I have a sensitivity toward the poor.  My parents come from poor countries and I hate to see how this country is going through an obesity epidemic while other countries around the world are filled with starving people.
 
sitting back and praising my country for all it's done for me is just being to pacifistic.  I want to make things better for other people.  besides, all the good that has come out of this country will never bring back all the lives that have been lost unjustly for the sake of democracy.  I don't hate democracy, but I know it's easily corruptible so that's why I prefer socialism.  Just a hint a socialism will not hurt in a democracy.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:25
also, elections don't seem to work.  It became very obvious after the 2000 election.  It's not that nobody voted, but there were to many mistakes.  elections are now even more fixable with computerized voting machines that can be easily hacked.  research Diebold to see what I'm talking about.  Plus, we've got an electoral college where we vote for a person to vote for our candidate.  The problem is that that person can change their mind.  It's not against the law.  Also, even if we did vote out a president, we would only replace him with another face.  The companies will continue to send lobbyist to Washington and politicians will always protect their interests.  The difference between bush and clinton is that Bush actually made his wars well known.  Clinton was responsible for bombing Iraq also and other countries in the Middle East and Africa.  They were known to the public, but mostly ignored.  Even Abraham Lincoln was crooked.  The Civil war was fought in order to industrialize the south.  This is what Lincoln was campaigning for and as soon as he was elected, the south seceded because they wanted to remain simple farmers.  Slavery was terrible, but Lincoln didn't care:
 
" I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races (applause); that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.....
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
 
-Abe Lincoln giving a speech in Charleston in Southern Illinois.
 
Lincoln used the slavery issue to gain support from the abolitionists when he needed their votes like bush is using Jesus to gain the Evangelical Christian vote. 
 
You guys should read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn before you go and praise any coutrie.  Look at my example about the Kung people a few posts up.  It's the perfect analogy as to why I give my heart to no country.
 
Peace.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:27
Originally posted by jalas jalas wrote:

also, elections don't seem to work.  It became very obvious after the 2000 election.  It's not that nobody voted, but there were to many mistakes.  elections are now even more fixable with computerized voting machines that can be easily hacked.  research Diebold to see what I'm talking about.  Plus, we've got an electoral college where we vote for a person to vote for our candidate.  The problem is that that person can change their mind.  It's not against the law.  Also, even if we did vote out a president, we would only replace him with another face.  The companies will continue to send lobbyist to Washington and politicians will always protect their interests.  The difference between bush and clinton is that Bush actually made his wars well known.  Clinton was responsible for bombing Iraq also and other countries in the Middle East and Africa.  They were known to the public, but mostly ignored.  Even Abraham Lincoln was crooked.  The Civil war was fought in order to industrialize the south.  This is what Lincoln was campaigning for and as soon as he was elected, the south seceded because they wanted to remain simple farmers.  Slavery was terrible, but Lincoln didn't care:
 

" I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races (applause); that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.....

And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

 

-Abe Lincoln giving a speech in Charleston in Southern Illinois.

 

Lincoln used the slavery issue to gain support from the abolitionists when he needed their votes like bush is using Jesus to gain the Evangelical Christian vote. 

 

You guys should read "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn before you go and praise any coutrie.  Look at my example about the Kung people a few posts up.  It's the perfect analogy as to why I give my heart to no country.

 

Peace.


How dare you insult Lincoln. You have no idea what you are talking about.    
    

Lincoln despised slavery long before he even ran for House of Representatives (1837 is the earliest documented instance).

Edited by Arrrghus - November 28 2006 at 21:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:32
Then why would he say such a thing?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:37
Originally posted by jalas jalas wrote:

Then why would he say such a thing?

    

Lincoln knew the only way to free the slaves was to get approval from people who wanted to keep slavery.

As my History teacher says:

"When he and (Stephen) Douglas would debate in Northern Illinois, Lincoln would talk like a raging abolitionist, and in the south of the state, he'd talk like a cracker."

Lincoln had to say those things.

Do more research on a topic before you say something stupid like that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:39
So he was a flip flopper then.  That's even better when it comes to issues like slavery.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:41
Originally posted by jalas jalas wrote:

So he was a flip flopper then.  That's even better when it comes to issues like slavery.

    

He was not a flip flopper. He had to manipulate the South to free the slaves.

Keep in mind he did not appear on the 1860 presidential election ballot in the South. That means he had to win an overwhelming majority of the Northern votes (and that means he had to win over the border areas that had what my teacher calls "crackers").

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:48
Keep in mind, though, the the slavery Issue didn't come until the end of the war.  Lincoln new that abolishing slavery would hurt the south economically and would lead to the Northern victory.  Before that, the issue was mainly protection of interests.  plus, how can an abolitionist speak like that about blacks?  There were too many abolitionist in the North for Lincoln not to lose.  Even if there had not been a Civil war, there was enough opposition that slavery would have faded eventually.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:48
There were a lot more northerners than southerners.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2006 at 21:51
Originally posted by jalas jalas wrote:

There were a lot more northerners than southerners.

    

Right, but don't forget the 3/5ths Compromise. This allowed the South to use it's 4 million + slaves to boost its say in the government.
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