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Forgotten Son 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1356
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 Posted: November 27 2006 at 04:46 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Well, USA never took political control over the countrieds and directly executed more Jewishs than Hitler as Stalin did or sent even more people to the Gulags, they didn't closed the borders of many countries to avoid people from escapimng an d supressed all the liberties. |
So the crimes of other nations are to be ignored because the Soviet Union was worse.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BTW: The Sandinists were possibly a new Cuba so USA supported one sector whule USSR supported theother |
A new Cuba how? They were of no threat to the United States (not that Cuba was much of a threat either) and their human rights record, though not pretty by any means, paled in comparison to the previous regime and the horrible state-sponsored terrorism unleashed by the United States. Let's not kid ourselves. The war in Nicaragua was about maintaining a puppet regime in the area and halting the possibility of other nations following suit and rejecting US exploitation of their natural resources.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Suharto was not directly supported by USA. |
Wrong. The US, Britain and others provided millions of dollars of military aid and the political support that allowed the Indonesian government to murder hundreds of thousands of people.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB174/index.htm
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
And the economic support to Suharto doies not compare with military interventions by USSR during the Cold War. |
It really does. There are plenty of other examples I could use, too, of the contempt for democracy and human life shown by Western foreign policy makers.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
My post about USA backing England was in reply to a post complaining against USA by an Englamnd, so your comment is at leas unnecassary. |
Are you referring to me? Rest assured I condemn all acts of attrocity, I'm no nationalist hypocrite taking swipes at another nation. I'm fully aware of my nations crimes.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
No, but sometimes you have to compare the damage caused and the damage that could cause their lack of intervention. |
That doesn't make what the US et al have done any more pallatable. Take Nicaragua for example, was killing 30,000 people and leaving an entire country in ruins really necessary? Did the stated ends justify the means? Probably, but the stated ends were a bunch of bull. The Sandanistas, though unpleasant, were certainly not the major threat to American, or even wider Latin American peace and stability. In fact the operations themselves led to such instability. The damage caused by the intervention was far far greater than any of the risks of letting the populist Sandanista government continue unharried.
Another example, Indonesia. What possible humanitarian advantage could there be to providing military aid and political backing to one of the most brutal dictators on the planet? A genocide could have been prevented by doing something as simple as publicly condemning the attrcities and cutting military funding. This didn't happen.
There are plenty of other examples.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
As I said USA is not perfect and my first post in this hread was to criticize the wall, but I prefer them rather than any Communist Government.
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To live in, I whole-heartedly agree. However, for the people in third world countries that are subjected to US imperialism there's little to choose between the two.
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Neil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1497
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 06:36 |
Easy guys. Good job no-one mentioned Israel  Oops!
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When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 12:59 |
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They should worry?
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 14:52 |
Forgotten Son wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
So the crimes of other nations are to be ignored because the Soviet Union was worse.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
BTW: The Sandinists were possibly a new Cuba so USA supported one sector whule USSR supported theother |
A new Cuba how? They were of no threat to the United States (not that Cuba was much of a threat either) and their human rights record, though not pretty by any means, paled in comparison to the previous regime and the horrible state-sponsored terrorism unleashed by the United States. Let's not kid ourselves. The war in Nicaragua was about maintaining a puppet regime in the area and halting the possibility of other nations following suit and rejecting US exploitation of their natural resources.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Suharto was not directly supported by USA. |
Wrong. The US, Britain and others provided millions of dollars of military aid and the political support that allowed the Indonesian government to murder hundreds of thousands of people.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB174/index.htm
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
And the economic support to Suharto doies not compare with military interventions by USSR during the Cold War. |
It really does. There are plenty of other examples I could use, too, of the contempt for democracy and human life shown by Western foreign policy makers.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
My post about USA backing England was in reply to a post complaining against USA by an Englamnd, so your comment is at leas unnecassary. |
Are you referring to me? Rest assured I condemn all acts of attrocity, I'm no nationalist hypocrite taking swipes at another nation. I'm fully aware of my nations crimes.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
No, but sometimes you have to compare the damage caused and the damage that could cause their lack of intervention. |
That doesn't make what the US et al have done any more pallatable. Take Nicaragua for example, was killing 30,000 people and leaving an entire country in ruins really necessary? Did the stated ends justify the means? Probably, but the stated ends were a bunch of bull. The Sandanistas, though unpleasant, were certainly not the major threat to American, or even wider Latin American peace and stability. In fact the operations themselves led to such instability. The damage caused by the intervention was far far greater than any of the risks of letting the populist Sandanista government continue unharried.
Another example, Indonesia. What possible humanitarian advantage could there be to providing military aid and political backing to one of the most brutal dictators on the planet? A genocide could have been prevented by doing something as simple as publicly condemning the attrcities and cutting military funding. This didn't happen.
There are plenty of other examples.
[quote="Ivan_Melgar_M"]
As I said USA is not perfect and my first post in this hread was to criticize the wall, but I prefer them rather than any Communist Government.
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To live in, I whole-heartedly agree. However, for the people in third world countries that are subjected to US imperialism there's little to choose between the two.
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Cuba not a danger for the region? Have you ever studied history?
Maybe you haven’t read about the missile crisis in October 1868 because Cuba allowed USSR to place their missiles at 80 miles from USA coasts and place humanity in risk of a nuclear war.
Do you know that all the terrorist movements of South America received training in Cuba, they exported their revolution to countries that didn’t wanted it.
When MRTA took hostages in the Japanese Embassy in Perú, the terrorists asked for a pass to Cuba, how casual!!
About Nicaragua, it’s easy today to say that it is not a new Cuba because Daniel Ortega and his comrades got used to live in the big houses of the former Government members but in that moment, nobody knew what was going to happen.
Remember that even USA helped Fidel because he lied about his revolution not being Communist, so I understand if USA couldn’t afford to take risks in Nicaragua.
Now, lets talk about Indonesia, yes USA supported them with money (Apparently) but in the meanwhile USSR and China invaded with their armies Afghanistan and Tibet, two countries that didn’t wanted them, Stalin killed more people than Hitler, USSR crushed the Praga Spring back in 1968 or 1969 with their armies in a foreign country.
They also divided Germany and Europe with a wall (A stupid mistake USA could commit now) that is worst, sometimes in politics you have to choose between two evils and stay with the lesser danger.
BTW: I’m a Latin American from the third world and I feel safer now that there’s no USSR because I don’t have to wake every morning asking myself if another Nixon in USA or a Bureaucrat in the Kremlin will press the damn button and blow all of us from the face of earth.
So yes the world is a safer place without USSR and despite I don’t agree with everything USA does we have to thank them among others for taking that threat from our lives.
Iván
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Paradox
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 07 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1059
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 15:34 |
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I wouldn't say that the USA took the threat of the USSR out of our lives - they did that to themselves.
Draining their resources trying to keep up with the US, and sort of ran out of steam.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 22:05 |
*The troll continues to survive, to the amazement of the forum...*
It's nice how America is completely bashed like there's no tomorrow while the other countries are either suspiciously ignored or treated like heaven on earth (excepting of course the communism talk).
I could shoot my mouth off all day about how much of a sh*thole England is (I don't think that. hypothetical.) but I would have little credibilty added to my argument since I've never lived there.
Here's a bandwagon, folks, why don't you all just jump on it:
Edited by stonebeard - November 27 2006 at 22:06
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Zac M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 03 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 22:08 |
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^Agreed
At least the US bashing isn't quite as bad as it was around a year ago, though.
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"Art is not imitation, nor is it something manufactured according to the wishes of instinct or good taste. It is a process of expression."
-Merleau-Ponty
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 22:54 |
Don't feed the troll
We already gave him too much food.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 27 2006 at 23:15
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Sasquamo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 26 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 828
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 22:55 |
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It's always funny hearing people halfway across the world pretend they know exactly how everything works in other countries.
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avestin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 18 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 12625
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 22:58 |
Sasquamo wrote:
It's always funny hearing people halfway across the world pretend they know exactly how everything works in other countries.
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Right you are!
I have had people tell me of the two countries I am citizen of, how it is there and the likes... How the hell do they know if they did not even laid a step there?
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TheProgtologist
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
Status: Offline
Points: 27802
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Posted: November 27 2006 at 23:35 |
stonebeard wrote:
*The troll continues to survive, to the amazement of the forum...*
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Sorry everyone.....I do have a life and can't be in the forum 24/7.I took care of all this as soon as I discovered it.
And guys...if you quote a troll,your posts have to be hidden or deleted too.The best thing to do is ignore the guy and report it or send me or any of the admins a PM.
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Forgotten Son
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1356
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Posted: November 28 2006 at 01:48 |
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Am I being called a troll or did someone like creation_curve post something in here?
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: November 28 2006 at 02:15 |
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Apparently Creation Curve's posts have been dealt with accordingly, so don't worry, FS, it's not you.
I've missed all this, as I was asleep.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65616
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Posted: November 28 2006 at 02:32 |
Forgotten Son wrote:
Am I being called a troll or did someone like creation_curve post something in here?
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No, Forgotten Son, Geck0 is correct, nothing to do with you...you TROLL! (kidding).
Besides, Mr. Tiddles is looking especially pissed.
Edited by Atavachron - November 28 2006 at 02:33
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Trotsky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 25 2004
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 2771
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Posted: November 28 2006 at 02:49 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
 These guys saw their empire fade away:
Bin Laden through the desert on a horse with no mane.... |
I laughed 
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"Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.”
"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."
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Forgotten Son
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1356
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Posted: November 28 2006 at 03:15 |
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Neil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1497
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Posted: November 28 2006 at 05:25 |
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I've been reading all of this and to me there is some truth in both sides of the argument. America is unfortunate in that, like many countries, it seems to have a government that doesn't represent the views of the intelligent population. (and let's face it, Blair doesn't do much better). There does however seem to be a great mass of people in America who believe that the USA is the centre of the universe and that anything that happens outside is just a nuisance that needs to be dealt with. I'm sure that a lot of Americans think the same as me, hence South Park and Team America. The USA need to improve their public image; I'll give you an example. I remember a TV interview just before the US and Britain went into Iraq. The British general made a speach about how the troops should be sympathetic to the local Iraqis and be as tactful as possible in the campaign. The US general simply said "It's Hammer Time!"
Need I say more?
Edited by Heavyfreight - November 28 2006 at 05:26
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When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: November 28 2006 at 07:30 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
*The troll continues to survive, to the amazement of the forum...*
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Sorry everyone.....I do have a life and can't be in the forum 24/7.I took care of all this as soon as I discovered it.
And guys...if you quote a troll,your posts have to be hidden or deleted too.The best thing to do is ignore the guy and report it or send me or any of the admins a PM.
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Not a personal inctment of you, Jody. Good job. 
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jalas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 283
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Posted: November 28 2006 at 12:11 |
The problem that I have with the United States is the lack of soul. Living here and learning at my own free will about the history of this country, I can say that this is an empire and I can say this with evidence. From the very beginning, when the pilgrims settled at Plymouth Rock, The pilgrims thought of the Natives as inferiors who had to be eliminated even after they had greeted them so nicely. When the British were defeated in the revolution, pioneers were finally allowed to cross the appalachian mountains. Americans began to drive the natives further and further West. Andrew Jackson came and emptied Florida of the Seminoles. Mexico was and is a country of Natives, Spaniards and Mulatos. The Mexican American war was fought because the United States wanted Texas in order to protect interests and half of Mexico was taken over. Later, the US took control of Puerto Rico and Cuba after the Spanish American War. They also later owned Hawaii, the Phillipines, and Guam. Then, the US sent Military aid to Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Guatemala in order to hold back guerillas who were fighting against dictatorships, in order to protect American Business there too.
Cuba was screwed over by the United States. 90 to 100% of the Business in Cuba, prior to the revolution, was American owned. Castro came and had overwhelming support. Quickly, he set up programs to take the Land that the Americans had taken control of and he distributed it among peasants who never owned land. He also pushed for free education and medicine. Unfortunately, this didn't happen because Castro needed money and the US did all it could do to keep money from going there. Now, the country is really poor and nobody seems to recognize that the US has a lot to do with the poverty.
Now, Cuba being a threat was not exactly a popular view outside of the United States. When Kennedy told the Mexican President that the Cubans were a threat, The Mexican president said that he could not be part of this because if he told his people that Cuba were a threat, a Million Mexicans would die laughing.
After WWII, the US got control of Israel which is responsible for some horrific atrocities in the Middle East which goes ignored in the American Media. The UN, which the US helped create, is now being questions by Americans because they don't know if the UN can be trusted or not. What the UN does is block the US from controling more countries. The UN was ignored and now we control Afghanistan and Iraq.
So many people have died. So many people have to suffer. The US isn't making things any better. The US is run by interests groups. They are the ones that make the decisions. The problem with this is that greedy people tend to not care about other people's feelings. There main interest is to make more money and sometime, sacrifices have to be made. The common man has to realize that those sacrifices bring profit which does not benefit the masses as much as it could.
Money is a very powerful thing. It's a god to many people who do anything for it. IF something has that much power over somebody, than maybe we should try not to focus on it as much. Like when freedom of religion should keep any religious views out of government, so should money. Money and Religion are two things that are powerful enough to create followers that can disregard consequences for others. What bothers me the most is how unjust all of this is. A person will go and rob a liquor store, probably kill a person, and take the money out of desperation. Small time crooks usually steal out of neccessity. It's wrong but sometimes a person gets hungry. A CEO is well fed living in a very confortable house with a nice car and a secure job. This CEO goes and lays off a bunch of Americans and sends the work elseware where work is cheaper. They say they are making Jobs for very desperate people, but they continue to ignore the conditions of the factories and pay the people just enough to eat. They could pay a little more. They did pay the Americans descent wages and the Standard of living in this other country is very low. It would hurt to pay descent wages, but they don't because they don't have too. They know that desperation will guarentee workers. The worst part is that American capitalism allows this kind of atrocitie to happen.
Sure, a social democracy is not socialism, but it's not democracy either. It's both, mixed to favor everyone. What's so bad about that? I know that Socialism won't work on it's own, but I can still be a socialist because I care about the common man. I am one of these common men. Most of us are.
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JOIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY!
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Dalezilla
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: July 28 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 5113
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Posted: November 28 2006 at 12:19 |
Sasquamo wrote:
It's always funny hearing people halfway across the world pretend they know exactly how everything works in other countries. |
Exactly. I'm sick of people here in Finland always bashing America without knowing anything about it. 
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