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Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
 Posted: August 13 2005 at 20:30 |
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Why in hell atheist try to convince Christians and Christians try to convince atheists? Live in peace with your convcictions but don't bother the rest of us. Iván |
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Fragile
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: June 27 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 1125 |
Posted: August 13 2005 at 20:32 |
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Hey Arseum what are you taking? Answer me.Are you plain daft?.Born daft?simply daft? Who told you which Philospher said what or was it a story? oh yes, you believe what you want don't you!!! Stunning c**ts are We or was that a Caravan album? You should go to your idiot bed and wake up and shut up.
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Fragile
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 27 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 1125 |
Posted: August 13 2005 at 20:37 |
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AtomHeartMother
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 229 |
Posted: August 13 2005 at 20:38 |
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Unless you have read the bible YOURSELF, then don't tell that you know what it sais or is. 1. The bible is actually noted for NEVER contridicting itself. 2. You were the one with "quotes" from the bible. Maani was saying you should have included citations. 3. If the bible is inacurate and controdicts itself, show us. I doubt you can even use your "logic" to interpret the bible. For someone with all this "logic" it's sad that you base your opinions about the bible with something the TV said or something you read in a magazine. It's not like the television would lie to us, or that magazines don't make up crap just to sell, why whould they do that? Edited by AtomHeartMother |
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator Joined: January 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2632 |
Posted: August 13 2005 at 22:39 |
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Arteum: It is almost impossible to know where to begin. Although I know that you have little or no interest in actually learning anything - despite the "greater world" of "logic" and "science" that you inhabit - I will nevertheless humor you by responding. "Poor, poor Maani. Is this all you are able to say? After direct, completely devastating arguments written by me and the others, (without, by the way, any reference to the Bible) you are only able to write a few feeble, vague sentenences about "lack of citations" in your defense? Why not admit you have lost?" Hmmm...devastating arguments? Really? I saw no devastating arguments. Did anyone else here see "devastating" arguments? Even those of you who are atheists and may generally agree with Arteum? I'd be happy to be shown what these supposedly "devastating" arguments were. Rather, what I saw were positions taken on various issues and topics, with little or no actual support for them other than a few quotes from one author. Arteum - did you ever take forensic debate in high school or college? If you did, you have clearly forgotten everything you knew. You have not been able to make one single cogent argument based on anything even resembling the degree of "logic" and "rationality" that you claim to have. Not only have I not "lost," but I dare say there are more "ticks" in my column than in yours - and that even many of your supporters would be hard-pressed to disagree. "Aaah, I forgot. Your "inner happiness" depends on that. It's easier to continue deluding yourself and others than to face the arguments (which again have nothing to do with the Bible and state the obvious Christian doctrine). Oh, and your livelihood depends on the number of believers you recruit. Don't you live (at least partially) on the money of the poor brainwashed people?" No, my inner happiness (actually, the phrase is "inner peace" - or haven't you been paying attention?...) depends entirely on my personal relationship with the God I believe in. It does not depend on anything "temporal" or "worldly" at all. However, my ability to engage in reasoned debate (which you have thus far failed to do) is entirely a product of my rational, academic, scientific upbringing (or haven't you been paying attention?...). As noted previously (and still ignored by you...), anytime you feel like a discussion or debate on any issue in almost any area of science, psychology, or any other "secular" concept, just let me know. As for my "livelihood," I take no money for counseling, and take no donations whatsoever from anyone. The only money I might even consider accepting would be honoraria offered for guest preaching. But I often refuse that as well (unless it would clearly be an insult to do so). Nor do I "recruit" anyone. I offer the Gospel to anyone who is interested in hearing it. If they are not, I say thank you, and move on - just as Jesus taught (or haven't you been reading the Bible you have now begun claiming to know?...). If they are interested, I am happy to assist in Bible study, if they wish. So no, I do not live - even "partially" - on the money of anyone I counsel, preach to, or otherwise share my faith with. As for "poor brainwashed people," I have actually found very few. Most range from earnest seekers with average to high intellgence, to those (like tangerine62) who had a truly bad experience which turned them off to the Church (the organized, mainstream church), but still feel that the "basics" of their faith are solid, and are looking for someone who has a less "rigid" or "doctrinaire" understanding of Jesus and His ministry. Even if we needed the Bible ... Are you so naive to claim that it is an accurate, authoritative document? Bible is known to have hundreds of inaccuracies, contain hundreds of contradictions (which in many cases show the God unequivocally in a light in which you would't like your congregation to see him) and list thousands of vague statements that may be interpreted with a sway +/- 100%!? Don't you know that even Devil can interpret the Bible in its own favour!? And this is the book you base your fantasies on? Shame on you, Mr-Once-Aspiring-Physicist. "Known?" By whom? As usual, you fail to offer any sources whatsoever. Not exactly a prime example of "logic," "forensic debate" or the "scientific method." "Vague statements?" You clearly do not understand that there are, in fact, three types of Scripture - direct, interpretive and allegorical - and that even an "average" Christian who "knows" the Bible can point out which is which. That you do not know or understand this very basic aspect of Scripture says volumes about your newly claimed knowledge of the Bible... As for the devil (small "d"; one only capitalizes the "S" in "Satan" because that is a given name rather than a "nickname"...or haven't you been reading the Bible you now claim to know so much about?...) "quoting Scripture," yes, this is true. The devil can quote Scripture to serve his own ends. (In this regard, you may want to read Matthew 4:1-11 to see how Jesus deals with Satan's quoting of Scripture). Indeed, that is why Christians are admonished to know the Scriptures as well as possible: so that Satan can never "twist" it for his own ends and thus lead them the wrong way. By the way, I was never an aspiring physicist. Simply because I took a few courses with Michio and have read more books on physics than you have does not mean I had any interest in being a physicist - any more than reading all the books I have read on naturalism makes me want to go to Africa to study lions, or all the books I've read on anthropology make me want to go and study the Bushmen of Africa, or all the books I've read on metaphysics make me...well, you get the idea, I'm sure... Don't even start me on the Bible. I would never "get you started" on the Bible since you clearly have never read it, or read it so long ago that you remember little or nothing, or read it and understood almost nothing, or read it with the kind of hostile attitude you display here. You, "pretty smart?" You certainly could have fooled me, because you haven't displayed that here. What you have displayed is a propensity for ignorance (make that "willful" ignorance); unsubstantiated and unsupported claims and statements; and an almost inexhaustible supply of vituperation, invective, vitriol, hostility, anger, fear, insult and personal attack. Finally, what "challenges of science" did you go through that I found to be "an insurmountable obstacle" for me? As far as I can tell (and as I've stated pretty much ad nauseam by this point, since you continue to ignore my original statements), I am far better read in the very sciences you claim to know than you are; I have as great or greater an understanding of them than you do; and my debate skills are so far beyond yours that there really is no...debate here. When you learn how to engage in a reasoned, rational debate - including, among other things, supporting your claims and statements with citations or other support, and refraining from vituperation, hostility and insults - then perhaps this discussion might actually go somewhere. Until then, you are free to continue your pseudo-intellectual mental masturbation and name-calling. But don't be surprised if I choose not to respond. Peace. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 00:02 |
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Hi Maani, you told me many times to cool myself in some threads and I know it's hard to do it when you're convinced in your beliefs, you know what I think about this issue and I'm also a Christian (Even if most Christians believe Catholics are not) and not even 1,000 posts of anti religious (Didn't say Atheists because real atheists don't have to prove anything), a novelist elevated to the cathegory of bright intellectual or the best scientist, will make me change my point of view or my beliefs. In this times when somebody mentions religion, there will always be some agressive answers, but don't affect your health, let them believe what they want. I'm sure you're a man of strong faith so you don't need to prove anything to anybody. Those guys who are so agressive against Religion do it because they are not sure of what they believe, because those who are sure don't try to prove anything, they live in peace with themselves. I know a lot of atheists who are the most respectful people with other's beliefs, I even seen them in Church for special ocasions as a sign of respect for their friends, believers or not. So why do you waste energy answering this critics? Iván BTW: This thread should be on another forum because now has nothing to do with Prog or even with music. |
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barbs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 04 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 562 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 02:21 |
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My understanding and experience of relationship with God and the revelation of who is, is as I have said. That is my personal experience of it.  For me, it is a pity that you have chosen to close your mind and heart to the life of Christ.
In the end, the choice about Christianity is who you say Jesus Christ
is. He is an historically attested figure in history (even secular
historians don't argue about this) but in the words of Josh McDowell,
the choice is wether you believe he is either Lord, lunatic or a liar.
I just happen to have chosen him as Lord. IMO, there is a God spot in
all of us but some of us harden our hearts and some don't. I have found that having this relationship with God has enlightened, liberated (not robotically promoting the doctrines of either God, man or scientific theories and philosphies of man) and yes, my life has been blessed in many ways by this relationship.  I can however, understand how some people and possibly you as well, have been put off Christianity by the religious dogma and institutionalism of the church.  
This has always been mans working as Christ made it very simple for us.
Love God and likewise love your neighbour. When you see someone
proclaiming to be a Christian that is involved in activites that
compromise this directive then it is not of God, but the will of man
which IMO was never meant to be like that but is further evidence of
how mankind tends to mess everything up when we don't have a correct
understanding and correctly balanced relationship with God.But messing up is not exclusive to the church as secularism is responsible for a whole lot of hurt in this world. Lets face it, you can find bad in anything if you want to look hard enough. IMO, the invisible church not made with human hands is the right one which are those body of believers who have found that God has filled that spot in them and now have that 'peace that is beyond human understanding ' and who walk in his righteousness.  All the best |
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Eternity
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Mr_Upside_Down
Forum Groupie 
Joined: July 06 2005 Status: Offline Points: 58 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 02:57 |
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Maani:
It is with some interest that I have been following this thread through it's various convolutions, and although it seems to have effectively run it's course now, you've proven yourself to be rational in defending your faith and quite prepared to argue the facts, rather than resorting to Arteum-style "logic"! Anyway, there was one interesting point raised regarding God's mercy and the likelihood of every person having an opportunity to accept/reject Christ. I'm interested in your thoughts on this, and was wondering if there was perhaps another, more appropriate forum where you (and others) might discuss various issues of this kind. |
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barbs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 04 2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 562 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 03:09 |
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You are in fact an excellent arguement in yourself for not being an atheist Arteum. 
An agent provocateur who has no real interest in the truth, just a self
satisfied smug smile of devilish delight that you have 'drawn people
into your web' I suppose. Your 'accent' suggests that your upbringing and education was Marxist dominated. That would explain alot of the vicious rhetoric (see definition 4) against Christianity. Your posts have been pernicious, indifferent, generalistic, baleful, sniping, inimical and banal. The use of generalities is always a sign of a weak arguement.
You take advantage of the fact that the people you are trying to draw
into your posts about Christianity, by virtue of their beliefs, cannot
attack you as you attack them but persist in adopting your own 'holier
than thou' attitude in your apparent intellectual superiority (dreams
of granduer) and confidence in your own understanding of intellectual,
philosophical, theological and scientific matters but fail to
materialise substance through your arguements. You admit you don't trust anyone and that you would only lend money to someone in order to keep their friendship because it could be useful. What a funny little munchkin you are.  Try giving, it is good for the soul. Edited by barbs |
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Eternity
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DallasBryan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 23 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3323 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 04:19 |
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Dont forget Lucifer was Gods covering angel. He
was the leader of music in heaven. Only when he decided in his heart(only God knows) to be higher than God did God cast him out of heaven to earth. We are the pawns in the match! Lucifer as he was known is aware of scripture and the light(goodness). He then is very deceptive in his ways and means. God is the judge and we are the judged, careful we should thread! Christianity as a religion has touched on blasphemy, hypochracy and everything this side of the fence. The Catholic church was devised by the Roman government to control the outpouring of the Holy Spirit(Holy Trinity), so the money and the information concerning God and faith would be controlled by the Roman government. This is the basis of the fallen state of the Europe Continent. Only 5% of europeans attend church on a regular base. Catholosism prays to the saints and Mary over Jesus Christ. and may miss the borne again experience. In America the Protestant church: Baptist, Methodist , Presbryterian, Episcopalian(similar to Angelician in England) are the leaders in misdirection. They control the universities, many businesses, and are led towards an elitist philosophy that adheres to the mentality of "we are the choosen"  .
While denying the supernatural powers of the Holy Spirit, saying that these powers ceased, only the 1st century disciples had these powers. This passing of the Holy Spirit continued and is the power of the believer until today. The protestant church has many problems accepting the powers that is passed on thru the laying on of hands as a passing on of the powers passed down through the Day of Pentecost. This power is a necessity in the latter days as occult, witchcraft and divination become more prevelent in the days to come. This supernatural may not be a part of your experience in life, but is very active in the spirtual battle that is happening in the world today. Lucky you are not to have to experience the battles that are and are to come. Progressive muxic in the 70's was the fertile battleground for youths minds the US, UK and Europe and had its day for many. Remember occult means "hidden' and is revealed to those that cross the line,weather it be by social economic status, comeliness, power, or hallucengenic encounter or narcotic influence or generational influence Many are deceived and dazzled by this approach by the horned wonder"Lucifer". This is much more powerful than the Satanic(obviously dark approach). This is also why progressive rock was so powerful in affecting the 70's generation with its subtleness over the blatently darkness of 90's/00 bonehead metal/satanic music that the record companies continued to push. Remember media now has expanded to virtual reality and to the pornographic mega profit empires! Edited by DallasBryan |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 05:08 |
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This takes me back.
Where's Threefates when you need her.........?
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Jeremy Bender
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 531 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 05:10 |
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That had to be: Breaking all the rules(musically and lyrically) |
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JrKASperov
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 07 2004 Status: Offline Points: 904 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 07:11 |
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Here is exactly where your logic and reason ends. Assuming that religion is the same as something that is supposed to be portrayed as something outrageously impossible. This is based on nothing except your own expectations that faith or Christianity in this case is false. There it all stops. It's funny because you remind me of the Aristoteleans in the Middle Ages who were fought against so hard during the Scientific Revolution. They held to something(the Aristotelean worldview) without considering other views. It stopped the development of science, because of a worldview. Only when people like Kepler, Descartes and Newton came to say: 'hey, maybe something else is true' progress was made. The starting point of thinking one view is right and the other is not is exactly the antithesis of science, or at least the scientific method. That is why your reason and logic is so flawed, based on a world that does not in any way support you. |
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Epic.
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lucky man
Forum Newbie 
Joined: July 24 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 16 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 07:26 |
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If some people have a problem with these "lyrics" don't listen or read it any more! then the problem is finish!
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threefates
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4215 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 07:43 |
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Its Sunday... and I'm home playing Tarkus!! |
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THIS IS ELP
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 13:35 |
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Playing the demon-spawn on a Sunday! Burn her!!!
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 14:46 |
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again I recommend this deep and witty dialogue between a mortal and God (written by logician Raymond Smullyan): http://www.gaiaguys.net/taoist.htm
Friede put my attention to it; it is cited in one of the books of Douglas R. Hofstadter ("The Mind's I", co-written with Daniel Dennett). it is in my opinion an eye-opener for both believers and atheists. what's more, if one follows God's definition of himself in that dialogue, no-one can be an atheist anymore. it is simply impossible. but that definition of God may be a hard nut to swallow for believers also. in any case this dialogue is definitely worth reading; it is highly entertaining, if you have a sense of humor |
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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MANTICORE
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 09 2005 Location: Chile Status: Offline Points: 350 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 19:05 |
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I Think that there are lirycs that would have worried much more, a black metal lirycs is an example
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Starette
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2005 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 502 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 19:34 |
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Which just goes to show that you missed my point: entirely. I was commending you on letting the topic of religion be ("each to his own" etc) and disagreeing with your starting that thread which contradicted that idea. The fact it was in a music forum has nothing to do with it considering the fact I was focusing on your ideals altogether, not just you behaviour in the forum- DUH! As for taking a hike- Nah! MAKE me! Fascinating link BaldJean though it's a bit long- I havn't quite finished yet. |
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50 tonne angel falls to the earth...
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: August 14 2005 at 19:46 |
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yes, it is long, but well worth reading
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Is ELP against christianity
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ivan_2068 wrote:
I and my friends, when we were younger, took some pains to see that it is a total bunk. And, believe me, we were and are pretty smart. At least we were able to go through the challenges of science which turned out an insurmountable obstacle for you.
