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Tony R View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is ELP against christianity
    Posted: January 15 2006 at 18:10

Nice to read you again,anyway!

Ok,every party has had their chance to sat their piece.

This one's now consigned to Prog Archive Dungeon Zone.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 18:08

Never left really... just not found much fun in posting lately... having too much fun elsewhere...

But my ELP radar is working nicely, thank you!.

THIS IS ELP
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 18:04
Originally posted by threefates threefates wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Its the return of "The Attack Of The Pink Smog"

Run to the hills boys,this gal will not give in!

I knew you missed me!!!

Have you been away?

Is this a return or a flying visit caused by a blip on your ELP radar alert?Approve

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 18:00
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Its the return of "The Attack Of The Pink Smog"

Run to the hills boys,this gal will not give in!

I knew you missed me!!!

THIS IS ELP
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:58
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

It's not about being out of touch.It's about points of view and judgement calls.

I have a different view of the individual involved.I'm not saying he is perfect or even that he is to be applauded in any way.I'm suggesting that he used poor judgement through naivety.I doubt very much that it was his intention was to offend; although I could be wrong and also his intent could be a moot point. As for the disrespect he showed to you-what young man hasnt challenged authority or reacted incorrectly to being rebuked? It is the nature of youth to react in this way to the older generation.It doesnt make it right or acceptable,but it does make it "normal"-it's just humans being human. Should we expect all who enter here to undergo some kind of ruthless fallability test?

This isnt a put up or shut up reply,merely an acknowledgement that none of us here is perfect. Mistakes will be made,errors of judgement will be witnessed.A PM to a Moderator or to the individual involved is normally the best course of action.

I agree, Tony. I would have used a PM, but 4 minutes after my initial post, Easy merely moved the thread to another section. (Perhaps he did not look at page one.) I understandably saw that as tacit acceptance of the posting of such material here. Furthermore, I deal with these matters publicly, because they are public, in the first place.

I know about youthful rebellion and indisgression -- yes, believe it or not, I was once young and foolish , too -- and I am heartened,by, and accept, the explanation for his actions that King of Loss has offered. i bear him no ill will.

Still, I logged on here, saw a potentially interesting and inflammatory thread entitled "Is ELP anti-Christian" and backed up to the first page -- not knowing it had originated half a year before. Surely, when such topics appear, they should be the first that the moderators should examine?

Finally, and by way of an olive brach, know that I continue to hold this site and its mods (doing a tough job that I didn't have the stomach to do) in high regard.

Yes, you are human, and mistakes are made, but I genuinely thought those lyrics were being knowingly allowed to remain.

I believe some good always comes out of these "awkward" occurances.

Keep up the good work,

Peter

 

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:58
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Its the return of "The Attack Of The Pink Smog"

Run to the hills boys,this gal will not give in!

Well, this is true.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:56

Its the return of "The Attack Of The Pink Smog"

Run to the hills boys,this gal will not give in!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:50
Originally posted by NecroManiac NecroManiac wrote:

Originally posted by threefates threefates wrote:

Originally posted by NecroManiac NecroManiac wrote:

Well actually the fact that you wear all that jewelry in the first place might be something to analyze...  -Judge me by, you mean

No actually I meant analyze...judgement seems to be your thing!
You cannot "analyze" me by a single sentence. What you would be doing is judging me by it. Analyzation requires concrete knowlage of facts to be valid, everything else is judgment.
And don't worry, I'm not above judging myself, so at least we're even.

Huh? Guess you haven't had any psychology classes... but I wasn't analyzing your one sentence.. I could analyze you from every statement you've made on this thread... on this website for that matter.. And analyzation in no way requires concrete knowledge... if it did, the analyzation would be unnecessary for the facts would speak for themselves.  The whole point of analyzation is to come up with a theory as to why something is the way it is....

but that being said, Christianity has survived the years, survived rock music, and survived their own bad deeds... I'm sure it will survive your criticisms also...
-kinda like greek mythology does . I'm not alone mind you, and i'm not attacking christianity in particular, just organized religion.

Wow, I didn't know Greek mythology had a church and a billion followers... where have I been..
/sarcasm mode off
Sorry, I did not mean to sound so vauge. What I ment was, don't asume that all things are eternal, just because they're the things you know.
That saying goes for me too, but anyways, I was just pointing out the fault in your logic.

I in no way assume that Christianity is eternal because its what I know, nor did that statement come close to representing that fact.  I pretty much can read and research back in history.. that its been doing pretty good in the eternal business all by itself...

Torture and death sentences have also survived trougout the ages despite my critisisim, and I have no illusion that they wont continue after my death, but so will sceptism and atheism, and all those things, good or bad, are older than christianity.
And as for rock music...... The devils music?  "survived?" I just love how Christians Bash their own inventions

Wow, I also didn't know that torture and death sentences were only connected to religion..
-The point was not discrediting religion, but pointing out that bad things also presist. And I mentioned Atheism too. A philosiphy that contradicts your belief just as much as your belife contradicts my philosiphy.
I was just trying to ilustrate were I was comming from.

The bad things persist in people.. The faith itself does not sponsor torture or death.

I believe everyone has a right to believe in what they believe...
-Me too. But contradictionaly, that is not what your religion teaches.

Hardly, my religion teaches "Judge ye not, least you be judged"....
-Well, I admit there are some good bits, but you realy have to search for it troughout the hatred and the contradictions in your beloved book. It also says: Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and that seems to be the prevailing philosiphy troughout it's chapters, and not just in the old testament.

If you're referring to the Bible... it was written by many different people.  If you haven't notice, it seems humanly impossible to see anything the same way as someone else.  Thats just human nature.  So it leads to contradictions..  However, I don't agree that the teaching of an eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth prevails in the New Testament by those who followed Christ's teachings.

I am a Christian..and I attend church.  However, I live with and love a Jewish man... and I attend temple with him.  I support him in his faith every way I can, and he does the same for me.  So whatever you believe in, is just fine by me...
-Yet you replied to me on the basis that I was wrong and "anilyzed" me by a single sentence.

Incorrect actually... you replied to me first, with an assumption regarding Greg Lake's faith.  I merely responded to your assumption on someone you do not know.
-Yet you used the words "Analize"   Actually I used the word analyze.. and only on your remarks of how many religious symbols you wear in jewelry. And again, analyze means to examine or explore... judge means to critique or evaluate.


And no, your not a christian, and I would go as far as saying that the majority of the people that belive them so today are not. At least, not int the way their scriptures preach to them.
Same with Jews mind you.

I have a feeling you don't know enough about the Christian or Jewish faith to make such a judgemental statement.  You have a tendancy to really "be the pot calling the kettle black"..
-I used to be a devout christian, and have both read the christian and the jewish bible.
It was the start of my mythological fascination, just as it was the start of my alianation from organized religion. 

Devout faith takes more than reading the Bible.  Also understanding the Bible takes a lot more time and research than I'm sure you put in.  Maani here probably has spent quite a lot of time researching the Bible.  When it comes to explaining how the Bible works... I leave that up to him.

And actualy, I find it to be a good thing. It's a "progression" in the right direction.
But that is my personal point of view, take it as you will.

Guess we'll have to!
-Thanks for at least showing interest in it. Best regards to you and your husband.

Thanks... He had his first Christmas this year.. actually we celebrated Christmakah.... He bought me a tree.. and I bought him a beautiful menorah....

THIS IS ELP
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:29
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

This thread is so old......do we really want to keep it open???


Nah, I'm withdrawing. I will only respond if someone questions me on the points I've allready made from now on.


What's yer faovrite album? =^_^=
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:27
Well, I do not neciserily belife it yet. I've yet to see him wearing a cross. A photo might help.
But anyways, I don't necissarily find it unlikely.
 

What's yer faovrite album? =^_^=
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:23
This thread is so old......do we really want to keep it open???
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:22

Originally posted by NecroManiac NecroManiac wrote:


Well, as I said, I'm fascinated with religion, but that does not necisarily mean I belive in the symbols, now do I?
I use it for decorative purpoces only, kind of like wearing a kewl t-shirt with some miscalanius quote on.
Now does the quote on the T-shirt realy mean that I belive that the person besides me is stupid?

Well, this proves how different are humans, I won't use a star of David for decorative purposes because I'm Catholic (Despite I respect Judaism as I respect any religion).

But I believe most people will use a religious symbol because they believe in what it represents, and if Threefates says Greg is Christian, I honestly believe her because she really knows the guy.

Iván

 

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:21
Originally posted by threefates threefates wrote:

Originally posted by NecroManiac NecroManiac wrote:

Well actually the fact that you wear all that jewelry in the first place might be something to analyze...  -Judge me by, you mean

No actually I meant analyze...judgement seems to be your thing!
You cannot "analyze" me by a single sentence. What you would be doing is judging me by it. Analyzation requires concrete knowlage of facts to be valid, everything else is judgment.
And don't worry, I'm not above judging myself, so at least we're even.

but that being said, Christianity has survived the years, survived rock music, and survived their own bad deeds... I'm sure it will survive your criticisms also...
-kinda like greek mythology does . I'm not alone mind you, and i'm not attacking christianity in particular, just organized religion.

Wow, I didn't know Greek mythology had a church and a billion followers... where have I been..
/sarcasm mode off
Sorry, I did not mean to sound so vauge. What I ment was, don't asume that all things are eternal, just because they're the things you know.
That saying goes for me too, but anyways, I was just pointing out the fault in your logic.


Torture and death sentences have also survived trougout the ages despite my critisisim, and I have no illusion that they wont continue after my death, but so will sceptism and atheism, and all those things, good or bad, are older than christianity.
And as for rock music...... The devils music?  "survived?" I just love how Christians Bash their own inventions

Wow, I also didn't know that torture and death sentences were only connected to religion..
-The point was not discrediting religion, but pointing out that bad things also presist. And I mentioned Atheism too. A philosiphy that contradicts your belief just as much as your belife contradicts my philosiphy.
I was just trying to ilustrate were I was comming from.

I believe everyone has a right to believe in what they believe...
-Me too. But contradictionaly, that is not what your religion teaches.

Hardly, my religion teaches "Judge ye not, least you be judged"....
-Well, I admit there are some good bits, but you realy have to search for it troughout the hatred and the contradictions in your beloved book. It also says: Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and that seems to be the prevailing philosiphy troughout it's chapters, and not just in the old testament.

I am a Christian..and I attend church.  However, I live with and love a Jewish man... and I attend temple with him.  I support him in his faith every way I can, and he does the same for me.  So whatever you believe in, is just fine by me...
-Yet you replied to me on the basis that I was wrong and "anilyzed" me by a single sentence.

Incorrect actually... you replied to me first, with an assumption regarding Greg Lake's faith.  I merely responded to your assumption on someone you do not know.
-Yet you used the words "Analize"


And no, your not a christian, and I would go as far as saying that the majority of the people that belive them so today are not. At least, not int the way their scriptures preach to them.
Same with Jews mind you.

I have a feeling you don't know enough about the Christian or Jewish faith to make such a judgemental statement.  You have a tendancy to really "be the pot calling the kettle black"..
-I used to be a devout christian, and have both read the christian and the jewish bible.
It was the start of my mythological fascination, just as it was the start of my alianation from organized religion. 

And actualy, I find it to be a good thing. It's a "progression" in the right direction.
But that is my personal point of view, take it as you will.

Guess we'll have to!
-Thanks for at least showing interest in it. Best regards to you and your husband.


What's yer faovrite album? =^_^=
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 17:03
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Originally posted by NecroManiac NecroManiac wrote:

I wear a cross sometimes and I'm an atheist. The cross as a symbol is much older than the touture tool, or chirsitianity for that matter.

What Cross do you use?

  • Ankh Cross: Also known as Ra Cross, also religious
  • Althaic Cross: Religious symbol
  • Turkish Cross: Also an Armnenian Religuious symbol
  • Croptic Cross: A didfferent version of the Christian Cross
  • Greek Cross: Symbol of perfection and divinity
  • High Cross: Symbol of the Church of Egland

Any cross you can mention or use has a religious background, even the heraldic ones (the union of nobility with the Church), so better check what you use because it can be against your Atheist beliefs.

Iván



Well, as I said, I'm fascinated with religion, but that does not necisarily mean I belive in the symbols, now do I?
I use it for decorative purpoces only, kind of like wearing a kewl t-shirt with some miscalanius quote on.
Now does the quote on the T-shirt realy mean that I belive that the person besides me is stupid?
And atheism is not a belief sytem, it is a form of philosiphy and skeptic disbelief.
It is not simple the belief for me that "god probably does not exsist", it's the rejection of the idiea that a dogma exist: meaning that "god can not exist".


Edited by NecroManiac

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 16:52

It's not about being out of touch.It's about points of view and judgement calls.

I have a different view of the individual involved.I'm not saying he is perfect or even that he is to be applauded in any way.I'm suggesting that he used poor judgement through naivety.I doubt very much that it was his intention was to offend; although I could be wrong and also his intent could be a moot point. As for the disrespect he showed to you-what young man hasnt challenged authority or reacted incorrectly to being rebuked? It is the nature of youth to react in this way to the older generation.It doesnt make it right or acceptable,but it does make it "normal"-it's just humans being human. Should we expect all who enter here to undergo some kind of ruthless fallability test?

This isnt a put up or shut up reply,merely an acknowledgement that none of us here is perfect. Mistakes will be made,errors of judgement will be witnessed.A PM to a Moderator or to the individual involved is normally the best course of action.

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 16:49
I can sleep at night knowing we have the collective consciences of Peter and MikeEnRegalia to guide us    



Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 16:46
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

 

The Mayhem - "Necrolust" lyrics reproduced on the first page of this thread by the boy who calls himself "King of Loss" are absolutely disgusting, and as women, decent people and especially minors use this site, I think they should be removed ASAP. They are clearly against the forum rules. Can we write graphic pornographic stories, depicting the worst kind of perversions, here now? What is this forum for? Why are those highly offensive words still there? Why are unprincipled youngsters allowed to get away with this type of behavior?

SHAME!Stern Smile

Take it to another forum!Angry 

Is this is what "success" and reaching out to the "next generation of prog fans" has brought? Dead

Very sad.Ouch

He was using them as an example of anti - Christian lyrics in a potentially intellectual debate.I think there was an element of "titillation" but we ought to give the benefit of the doubt.Yes,they are potentially very offensive but nobody complained,I guess,because they were relevant at that time. These lines were posted 4 months ago and with the benefit of hindsight KOL should have added more argument to go with them.

 

 

As Tony R said before, they were posted by me 4 months ago to prove a point that ELP was not anti-Christian. It was just a comparision to a truly mindless, admittingly satanic Black Metal band that is truly Anti-Christian and then killed each other over each other because they weren't "Anti-Christian" enough. I was just trying to bring some sense in these false accusations of ELP being Anti-Christian, yes they probably were vulgar, but they surely weren't Satanic or even Anti-Christian that for the matter.

And to say something about Peter's reaction, yes, I was wrong to post these words maybe now and it was perhaps a clear breach of the rules of Progarchives, but in my eyes they were clearly justified since they were to show an example of such things. Me, for once, would never write any of these lyrics on a board, unless intended to show something in particular, which in case was to compare ELP lyrics to other, actual Anti-Christ lyrics.

 

 



Edited by King of Loss
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 16:30
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Give us a chance Peter, we have other lives outside the forum! A post which has been there for 4 months or so, and you're demanding action within the hour.Confused

I agree that the original post you highlighted breached the rules. I have edited it accordingly. I have also edited your posts, which in order to make your point contained graphic references to the very things you took exception to.

 

Thank you, Easy, you have done the (obviously) right thing, but those lyrics were there for six months, not four, and our former moderator had posted on the very same page (with nary an objecting or explaining word), and other moderators later in the same thread. I find it very hard to believe that I was the first of us to read them. (I was on holiday when they were posted, BTW.)

 

Tony, my friend, I am truly sorry to have to disagree with you on this, and goodness knows I don't want to become a thorn in your side, but I find your arguments defending the poster, and the presence of those absolutely perverted, xxx-rated lyrics here, to be wishful thinking at best, and, at worst, potentially dangerous sophistry. Bear with me for a few moments, please:

Let's imagine that someone writes a post, asking if such and such an album cover (Blind Faith, say) constitutes child pornography, and then another person responds with "No, that's not child porn -- this is child porn," with accompaning images or words. Or, someone asks "Is this racist?" and another responds in a similar fashion, with a posting from a hate or holocaust denial site. Similarly, I could start a thread, with the supposed purpose of combatting porn on the web, and ask people to post examples of the kind of stuff they do not wish to see here, all the while dressing it up as serving some "greater moral purpose." My image of a mass grave at Aushwitz, posted to show where institutionalized racism can lead, was swiftly censored, and perhaps rightly, but a post supposedly put up to show what "really" anti-Christian lyrics looked like, remained until I caused a fuss. (BTW, I was called an "asshole," and roundly condemned by many, as you may recall -- I don't see the youth who posted the material in question here being publicly insulted -- interesting.)

Pete Townshend said he was downloading child porn for "research," but the British authorities did not agree with the niceties of his argument. Hmmmm....

Finally, if the individual who posted those lyrics had elsewhere demonstated high-minded morality and maturity here, I might be more inclined, as you say, to extend him "the benefit of the doubt," but a minor who in the past has insulted a post of mine that simply asked for civility and tolerance, and who posts 99% immature drivel to get a high post count, certainly has NOT demonstated such maturity.

Finally, if such an album as he quoted from were listed here, I would expect that reproduction of the lyrics, for whatever purpose, would be against the rules. One can say "there are some potentially very offensive lyrics concerning necrophilia (and don't censor that word, please, as we have a forum member who calls himself "NecroManiac," and an avatar of a corpse in a Nazi helmet -- see above) with long-dead nuns, and other such things," without quoting the words. Warning labels on albums and movies don't quote or show the offending material to better inform you exactly what is there to avoid, now do they?

Again, I find it disheartening that no one reported this sooner, or that Maani did not take action when those disgusting, sickening words first appeared here.

Perhaps though, I really am out of touch with modern morals, "netiquette," and what a public music forum should be....Confused

I sure hope not.Ouch



Edited by Peter
"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 14:19

We want a forum that represents the high standards of education generally exhibited by the average member here. There appears to be no evidence that they were posted for titillation merely as an example of excess.

I am not praising those lyrics but as a single (and repulsive) example of anti-Christian doggerel and a comparison to the inoffensively phrased ELP ones,I think there should be the benefit of doubt.

The posting of those lyrics does not represent a pattern of behaviour,or a dropping of standards.I can find no evidence of casual posting of that brand of filth.Neither does KOL indulge in any kind of activity that would give anyone any real cause for concern

Just say for example that band was a Prog Band who had been accepted on the archive.How would anyone object to,or review,their lyrics (and therefore the justification for being here) if they could not make direct reference to them or debate them sensibly? 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2006 at 14:11

Give us a chance Peter, we have other lives outside the forum! A post which has been there for 4 months or so, and you're demanding action within the hour.Confused

I agree that the original post you highlighted breached the rules. I have edited it accordingly. I have also edited your posts, which in order to make your point contained graphic references to the very things you took exception to.

 

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