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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Topic: The true successors of Yes
Posted: August 29 2011 at 16:07

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Like I said, you wouldn't understand. Others will.

I understand you, but I absolutely disagree (As all the Prog listening world). Wink

Iván

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Posted: August 29 2011 at 15:43

Like I said, you wouldn't understand. Others will.

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Posted: August 29 2011 at 15:42

roberto59 wrote:

Dear All,

this is my first post here, so forgive any mistake I may make as a newcomer.

I have been a long time YES fan and as many others I am highly disappointed by the musical course the band has taken after splitting from Jon and Rick.

I would like to ask you which are in your opinion the best current bands that make music with a strong vocal and instrumental harmonic side like the classic Yes. I'll give you an example: I just finished listening to Moon Safari's Lover's End: beautiful record and very good vocally, but a bit "superficial" as far as the instrumental development is concerned. Do you know of any group with similar vocal harmonies and deeper musical content?

Thanks to all who will take some time to reply!

BR

Roberto

Blomljud is more complex and all around better than Lover's End (which is still a great album), so I'd give that a listen if you haven't yet. And I think Yes' sound is hard to imitate without copying them (mostly the vocals), but as stated, there are some "clones" which aren't all bad.

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Posted: August 29 2011 at 15:37

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Argumentum ad populum. You imply that 100,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong. Tell it to the architects of the Maginot line. And I see you don't deny that there were early reviews linking The Moodies to Genesis. How nice of you to be factually honest. The point here is that when I apply the same rules to Genesis that the Genesis fanboy has applied to Yes, suddenly you have a conniption. Perhaps Starcastle is not quite the clone that you think they are? Perhaps you have strayed out of the area of your expertise?

(and I'd be a fool to imply that you are not extremely knowledgeable re: Genesis.)

I don't remember early reviews about Genesis being a Moody Blues clone, maybe beacuse I started listing Prog in 1976 when I was 12 and by thet opont Genesis had a unique sound that couldn't be comnpared with anybody or ,maybe because this reviews never existed.

Just one mre thing, some reviews (if they ever existed), are not the same that the almost unanimous concensus about a musical style (not talking about the Maginot line or the Chinese Wall,)..

But leave it there, the whole world is wrong and you are right Starcastle is the more original band in the universe, they don't sound nothing at all like Yes.

For what it matters.

Iván.

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Posted: August 29 2011 at 15:11

Argumentum ad populum. You imply that 100,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong. Tell it to the architects of the Maginot line. And I see you don't deny that there were early reviews linking The Moodies to Genesis. How nice of you to be factually honest. The point here is that when I apply the same rules to Genesis that the Genesis fanboy has applied to Yes, suddenly you have a conniption. Perhaps Starcastle is not quite the clone that you think they are? Perhaps you have strayed out of the area of your expertise?

(and I'd be a fool to imply that you are not extremely knowledgeable re: Genesis.)

Edited by ghost_of_morphy - August 29 2011 at 15:14

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Posted: August 29 2011 at 15:06

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Surely somebody as knowledgeable about Genesis as yourself remembers those early reviews comparing Genesis to The Moodies. And wasn't that the point of your argument, that reviewers are never wrong? LOL.

Again Reductio ad absurduum:

1.- Ever Progressive Rock site in the world says Starcastle are clones of Yes or close to that

2.- All articles I read say that they are at least imitators

3.- 90% oif the reviewrs say thatthey are clones

But most important , I believe they are clones of Yes

On the other hand

Cocensus is not the same as a review, don't be a wise a$$

You imply that because your knowledge is infinite it's all imagination and the whole Prog listening world is wrong

Very arrogant to say the less.

Iván

Never said reviews can't be wrong, I read really stupid reviews, but whoever said that Genesis sounded like the Moody Blues is wrong, because appart from everybody,. the own producer Jonathan King said that he made Genesis souund like the Bee Gees, because he was a fan of the Bee Gees.}

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Posted: August 29 2011 at 12:45

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

By your logic, we could say that Genesis is a Moody Blues clone fronted by an eccentric singer.

1.- Genesis and Moody Blues? They have nothing in common,

LOL. I may not have made my point to you, but I trust that other people caught that.

Genesis never imitated The Moody Blues

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Posted: August 28 2011 at 16:24

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

By your logic, we could say that Genesis is a Moody Blues clone fronted by an eccentric singer.

1.- Genesis and Moody Blues? They have nothing in common,

LOL. I may not have made my point to you, but I trust that other people caught that.

Genesis never imitated The Moody Blues

Sttarcastle imitates the sound of Yes clearly

You make no point, there's nothing in common....The Reductio ad Absurdum is the worst fallacy of all. Wink

Iván

I knew Starcastle, and I tend to agree with Brother Ivan when he says "Starcastle imitates the sound of Yes clearly".

The band I knew were very much influenced by Yes, and they followed the "Yes formula" very closely (driving Rickenbacker bass, contra-tenor vocalist, classically-trained keyboardist, talented guitarists and vocal harmonies).

Gary Strater even looked hauntingly like a young Chris Squire onstage! It was eerie.

However, they also were not content to sit back; they COULD have covered Yes tunes very close to perfection, but I never even heard them do this in practice or onstage. Most of their live material when I knew them (months before "Lady of the Lake" was cut) was dead-ringer covers of songs by the Stones etc.

A very talented band with great promise, but also with a clear goal of taking on the Brits from this side of the pond (they wanted to be the American "Yes" if you will). Lovely lads, they gave it their best shot. I dearly miss Gary Strater, RIP. He was good enough that he easily could have subbed for Squire back then.

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Posted: August 28 2011 at 15:17

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

By your logic, we could say that Genesis is a Moody Blues clone fronted by an eccentric singer.

1.- Genesis and Moody Blues? They have nothing in common,

LOL. I may not have made my point to you, but I trust that other people caught that.

Genesis never imitated The Moody Blues

Sttarcastle imitates the sound of Yes clearly

You make no point, there's nothing in common....The Reductio ad Absurdum is the worst fallacy of all. Wink

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 28 2011 at 15:20

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Posted: August 28 2011 at 13:59

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

By your logic, we could say that Genesis is a Moody Blues clone fronted by an eccentric singer.

1.- Genesis and Moody Blues? They have nothing in common,

LOL. I may not have made my point to you, but I trust that other people caught that.

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Posted: August 28 2011 at 11:48

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

By your logic, we could say that Genesis is a Moody Blues clone fronted by an eccentric singer.

(and why are you so quick to go to an argumentum ad populum? Surely they taught you some logic in law school.)

1.- Genesis and Moody Blues? They have nothing in common, except that both are musicians, even during their first album, Genesis was close to the early Bee Gees and then they did elaborate Prog music that The Mood y Blues never dreamed of. Plus nobody sane will compare the Moody Blues with Genesis, they two different styles and genres, and more important, they never sounded remotely similar.

2.- I only support what I already believe with the opinions of people and sites dedicated to Progressive Rock, you are claiming everybody is wrong except you. I don't believe that Starcastle are clones of Yes because people believe they are...I believe Starcastle are Yes clones because they sound incredibly similar to Yes and apparently experts and people from the Progressive Rock community agrees with this.

But if you want to believe Starcastle is the most original band in the world and that the singer doesn't sound like Jon Anderson and the bass Riffs follow the Chris Squire style and more important their songs are similar to the ones by Yes (with less brilliance of course), go on, it's your problem.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 28 2011 at 11:52

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Posted: August 28 2011 at 11:18

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So please, don't tell me you need to have a Squire, a Howe and a Wakeman to clone Yes, you only need musicians who are able read a tab and are to play with some ability.

Maybe best to describe Starcastle as a Xerox of Yes

or the kind of drawing you get when you use tracing paper,,,

it reminds you of the original, but lacks originality and any variation from the original is more likely to be through the loss of detail/ texture rather than an artistic choice or additional flourish.

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Posted: August 28 2011 at 10:00

By your logic, we could say that Genesis is a Moody Blues clone fronted by an eccentric singer.

(and why are you so quick to go to an argumentum ad populum? Surely they taught you some logic in law school.)

Edited by ghost_of_morphy - August 28 2011 at 10:04

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Posted: August 27 2011 at 20:53

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

So what you are sayihng is that they have none of Yes's distinguishing characteristics, but since they obviously want them they must be Yes clones? .

No, as I said:

The vocal work is similar to Yes (Not only the Anderson clone, but also the choirs in the vein of Squire)
The guitarist is not Steve Howe, but does a great job simulating his interplay with the band, surely not ijn the same level during the solos, but that's not the point
Oliver Wakeman (As Herb Schildt ) does an outstanding job impersonating Rick Wakeman
Gary Strater takes the lead with his bass as Squire did

But most important The band sounds like Yes.

You don't need to be a virtuoso to sound as a determined band, I seen pub bands playing Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd (I seen a Peruvian Tribute band called Big Pink sounding extremely close to Pink Floyd and more than one band playing Yes or Genesis songs in small places with great performances), you only need to sound like them despite your technique.

So please, don't tell me you need to have a Squire, a Howe and a Wakeman to clone Yes, you only need musicians who are able read a tab and are to play with some ability.

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Let's deal in facts, not fantasies please.

I always deal wit facts, I posted complete songs andthe effect is incredibly similar

Other sites agree with me:

Proggnosis

USA	Starcastle

	Genre-SubGenre-Style:	PROGRESSIVE ROCK (Symphonic Yes & Influenced)
	Artist Web Site:	http://www.starcastlemusic.com/
	If you like this artist - you might like:	Aelian - Cherry Five - Druid - Exodus - Grandbell - Jon Anderson - Steve Tassler - Welcome - Yes - You & I

GEPR

A Yes clone. I bought their self-titled album on the recommendation of Yes-fans, but I never expected them to sound this much like Yes. Perhaps a bit more new-age flavored, hence the common nickname, "Yes-lite."

_______________________________________________________________________
A six-piece band. The only one I have is the first, self-titled album. They sound quite a bit like Yes, and have very vocal music. The lyrics also are reminiscent of Jon Anderson. The lineup consists of two guitars, bass, organ/synth, drums, and vocals. The lead vocalist sounds a bit like Chris Squire. If you're really into Yes, then you have to check the first album out.
_______________________________________________________________

They started out as a pretty faithful Yes clone, but had, by their third album, Citadel, begun to develop some of their own unique idiosyncracies. None of their albums are bad, but the first one is very derivative for the most part.
___________________________________________________________________

While sounding at first listening like a Yes clone, careful listening will reveal these musicians were NOT Yes wannabees, and are very talented players in their own right. Comprised of two guitars, keyboards, bass, drums and a lead singer with an apparent bass-heavy sound due to bassist Gary Strater's melodic approach. Substantial poly-rhythymic and poly-chordal writing. Exceptional clarity of tone with all instruments, and a tremendous resource for those musicians studying this style of music. Well worth locating usable copies of [the first] four albums. -- Andrew Woodard
________________________________________________________________________

I know it's been said before, but they're the ultimate Yes clone. The first album and Citadel even attempt to copy Roger Dean's distinctive cover art style. The only album I have is Fountains Of Light. Not original for a second. Keyboards are definitely patterned after Rick Wakeman, with ascending Moog runs a la "And You And I" (to which "Portraits" bears more than a passing resemblance). The inclusion of two guitarists presumably makes up for the lack of anyone as talented as Steve Howe. The singer, while he doesn't have Anderson's range, is clearly trying to impersonate his phrasing (too many examples to give, but "True To The Light" and "Portraits" are the best ones). Only if you've run out of Yes albums to collect and don't give a damn about originality. -- Mike Ohman
________________________________________________________________

http://www.gepr.net/stfram.html

All except one of five contributors of GEPR call them CLONES, except Andrew Woodward, who as I said claims that the late Gary Stratter has a bass melodic approach.

You can go to almost any Prog site and you will read the word clone besuide the name Starcastle

Back in the 70’s along with other major league acts Yes had more than their fair share of imitators. The band that came closer than anyone was America’s Starcastle. Their sound dominated by Chris Squire influenced bass melodies and Jon Anderson like rich harmonies graced four album releases from 1976 to 1978.

http://www.dprp.net/reviews/200729.php#starcastle

Seems you are the only one that doesn't notice the Melodic bass 0of Stratter and the FACT that this guys are clones or extremely close to this status.

So you insist this is fantasy and that we all are wrong and you are right?

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 27 2011 at 20:56

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Posted: August 27 2011 at 18:54

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Saying that Starcastle is a Yes clone is just as ridiculous. Where is the dominant bass playing rifffs like a lead? Where is the guitar virtuoso enchanted with the tonal qualities of various instruments? Where is the dedication to avoiding anything poppish? Where is the showcasing of the talents of each band member? Where are the serious but incomprehensible lyrics? Starcastle has very little to remind of us Yes, and their most striking similarity is mostly an illusion. Starcastle has extremely uplifting and positive songs. Yes has a reputation for the same, but when you pay attention, you begin to realize that that reputation is not that accurate.

Oh please GOM, few people areas virtuoso as Steve Howe, and honestly, II find a lot of lead by the bass, now the showcasing of the talents of their members depends on the talents of Starcastle members, they may have different lyrics (few are hallucinated enough to write the kind of absurd lyrics Jon does), but you listen the band and you say hey, this guys are trying as hard as they can to be Yes

It's obvious that in songs as Lady of the lake, they are recreating Jon's voice, the second voice by Squire, the keyboard style of Wakeman, and the guitar riffs of Howe without the same talent.

Just listen http://www.progarchives.com/mp3.asp?id=757

Or watch:

Even worst:

They even have a Wakeman in their cast. LOL

And that's not an illusion, it's obvious they are cloning Yes, if they succeed, it0's another issue.

Iván

So what you are sayihng is that they have none of Yes's distinguishing characteristics, but since they obviously want them they must be Yes clones? Let's deal in facts, not fantasies please.

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Posted: August 27 2011 at 11:35

CCVP wrote:

Well, OK, but it wasn't as obvious as many of those listed here AND they kept being original. For example, I love Glass Hammer to death, but they are not a very original band since some melody lines from each of their album could be found in the works of those who influeced them "ipsis literis", what does not happens with Mutantes.

True, and is also well known that Mutantes changed dramatically when Rita Lee left (They lost that Beatles influence) so specially since O 'A' E O 'Z' the sound is very close to Yes,to the point that in some parts of "A" e o "Z" i feel as if was listening some instrumental changes from "Tales" but they still keep some of their mysterious Psych spirit.

My point is that for me is absurd to say Genesis had a lot of followers and clones while there are very few bands that have the Yes sound. It's evident that Pink Floyd, Yes, ELP and Genesis had all a lot of followers and a few clones, because all were influential bands.

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

It's obvious that in songs as Lady of the lake, they are recreating Jon's voice, the second voice by Squire, the keyboard style of Wakeman, and the guitar riffs of Howe without the same talent.

Just listen http://www.progarchives.com/mp3.asp?id=757

Or watch:

Even worst:

They even have a Wakeman in their cast. LOL

And that's not an illusion, it's obvious they are cloning Yes, if they succeed, it0's another issue.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 27 2011 at 11:44

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Posted: August 27 2011 at 09:47

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

CCVP wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

yanch wrote:

As a long time Yes fan too, I've noticed that there are far, far fewer bands that have sounds in the Yes vein as opposed to bands who have emulated the classic Genesis style. A tribute I think to how talented Yes were at their peak.

A band has fewer clones or followers not because more talented, but because they caused a lesser impact.

I'm sure that Yes is among the most respected bands in UK and USA, but in other countries Genesis is far more accepted, and don't tell me that songs like Fountain of Salmacis, Supper's Ready ( with so many different changes and moods), Can Utility and the Coastliners ,etc are easier music.

In Italy and Sweden for example, Genesis had far more impact, in Germany and Japan, ELP had more followers because they caused a greater impact.

Now Yes had hundreds of followers and clones like

Starcastle,
Abbhama (Indonesia),
Druid,
Welcome (Switzerland),
Atlantide (France)
Saens (France)
Glass Hammer
Flower Kings
Lift (USA)
Cathedral
Cherry Five
Exodus (Known as the Polish Yes)
Blue Shift
Flash
Relayer
Banzai
Legacy
Alaska
Mutantes
Big Picture

Just to mention a few

Iván

Do you really wanna go there Iván? I mean, really man . . . . Ermm

Never said Mutantes were clones, some of this bands are clones, others followed the lead of Yes.

Mutantes are influenced by Yes as Flower Kings or Glass Hammer IMO, and I don't have a problem to say a band is a clone IMO, as I always said about Starcastle.

Well, OK, but it wasn't as obvious as many of those listed here AND they kept being original. For example, I love Glass Hammer to death, but they are not a very original band since some melody lines from each of their album could be found in the works of those who influeced them "ipsis literis", what does not happens with Mutantes.

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Posted: August 27 2011 at 09:46

Evolver wrote:

Flash is in a different category, as Peter Banks and Tony Kaye were member of that group, so the band would naturally have a similar sound to early Yes.

What is really surprising is that Flash does NOT have a similar sound to early Yes, for the most part. I could imagine Dreams of Heaven being included on The Yes Album if Peter had stayed, but other than that the only real similarity is some of Peter's noodling solos.

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Posted: August 27 2011 at 09:42

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Calling any of those bands Yes clones is quite disrespecful of what they have accomplished, not to mention in most of the cases cited highly inaccurate.

Not calling all the bands I mention Clones, apart from Starcastle, Exodus, partially Cathedral and maybe one more, the rest are only highly influenced bands.

Saying Glass Hammer or Mutantes are clones, would be absurd, but both have a clear Yes sound and influence.

Cheers

Iván

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Posted: August 27 2011 at 09:25

I agree pretty much with Ivan's assessment, that so many bands show influence from Yes, including The Flower Kings. I would also consider bands like Starcastle as clones, as the similarity in the sound is too close for it to be coincidental (my basis for considering Fish-era Marillion to be a Genesis clone as well). I would also say that World Trade was a Yes clone, although they chose the simpler sound of 90125 to emulate.

Flash is in a different category, as Peter Banks and Tony Kaye were member of that group, so the band would naturally have a similar sound to early Yes.

As for Wobbler, I think that their latest album does at times sound like they were trying to sound like Yes, but at this point it is only one of their three albums. Unless they continue with this, I would consider "Rites At Dawn" as more of a Yes tribute than a clone. They put too much of their own sound into it to be a pure clone.

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.