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Topic: The fall of Pink Floyd Posted: March 22 2011 at 16:25
I'm not keen on 'The Wall' but I really don't like 'The final cut', 'Momentary lapse' is OK and I like 'Division bell'. So for me the wall is where things start to go wrong......
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Posted: March 22 2011 at 14:27
uduwudu wrote:
...
One must take into account the individual. Roger is a very competitive driven man whereas Wright is not. Wright is not a rocker - he hardly makes an appearance on much of More for instance - they're a power trio on the Nile Song. But Up The Khyber and Quicksilver are very much his thing. ...
I never thought that Roger was competitive, or driven that way. I just felt that he had an opinion that he felt was important and worth the mention, and I doubt that many of us would disagree. We still listen to the stuff, although not enough folks have heard "Amused to Death" ... to get an even better idea. That album is as good as The Wall in my book, but because it is not a "concept" like "The Wall", it is not as appreciated. Actually it is a concept album, but the story is not as clear, as it was in Radio Kaos, for example ... radio waste! Yeah!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Joined: February 01 2011
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Posted: March 22 2011 at 07:16
Dean wrote:
I got me some bad news for you, sunshine, Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel and they sent us along as a surrogate band. We're gonna find out where you fans really stand.
Don't look so frightened this is just a passing phase, one of my bad days.
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Posted: March 22 2011 at 03:04
The Dark Elf wrote:
mr.cub wrote:
I feel Styx or Journey could have pulled off the same sound on the Wall. Nick Mason's drumming could have been accomplished by any adequate replacement, cannot say any of Richard Wright's keyboard work is all to memorable either. Gilmour's guitar-work settles into a dull niche that many a less skilled guitar player could have put to the table(not like his work on Animals, Dsotm, or Wywh).
I really think you missed the boat on this one. In fact, you're standing off the shore, with your feet in the water, wondering why your ankles are cold.
I don't think we're listening to the same album, particularly when you reference Gilmour's guitar playing as settling "into a dull niche". The beautiful descending acoustic runs on "Goodby Blue Sky", the innovative loop and delay effects of "Run Like Hell", the raw and biting "Young Lust", not to mention the soaring, cathedralesque lead on "Comfortably Numb", which is regularly voted one of the greatest guitar solos of all time.
Nope. We're talking two different albums here. I'm rather appalled you'd mention Styx and Journey in the same breath as Floyd.
I got me some bad news for you, sunshine, Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel and they sent us along as a surrogate band. We're gonna find out where you fans really stand.
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Posted: March 21 2011 at 22:50
mr.cub wrote:
I feel Styx or Journey could have pulled off the same sound on the Wall. Nick Mason's drumming could have been accomplished by any adequate replacement, cannot say any of Richard Wright's keyboard work is all to memorable either. Gilmour's guitar-work settles into a dull niche that many a less skilled guitar player could have put to the table(not like his work on Animals, Dsotm, or Wywh).
I really think you missed the boat on this one. In fact, you're standing off the shore, with your feet in the water, wondering why your ankles are cold.
I don't think we're listening to the same album, particularly when you reference Gilmour's guitar playing as settling "into a dull niche". The beautiful descending acoustic runs on "Goodby Blue Sky", the innovative loop and delay effects of "Run Like Hell", the raw and biting "Young Lust", not to mention the soaring, cathedralesque lead on "Comfortably Numb", which is regularly voted one of the greatest guitar solos of all time.
Nope. We're talking two different albums here. I'm rather appalled you'd mention Styx and Journey in the same breath as Floyd.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: November 01 2005
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Posted: March 21 2011 at 20:30
Well, that's a reasonable overview of AMLoR, what is rare. Hats off to you!
Of course it's not the best floyd album. IMO is their second weakest effort, surpassed in blandness and tedium only by that Waters-solely led album that I can't even write its name.
I understand the use of the verb "to fall" as suggesting a band that became out of the high expectations that the band itself created by their work. In this sense I believe that the last GREAT album is Animals. The Wall has a lot of songs that have only dramatic value (being weak songs per se), the Waters-graveyard album has a good opener, an acceptable title track and lots of embarrasing stuff musically speaking (in view of PF's body of work), AMLoR has the big problem of being a product of its time but has at least two good tracks (Learning to Fly & Terminal frost) and two great ones (Sorrow & on the turning away) and their final one has a lot of good and very good tracks worth of respect even when compared to the classic 1971-1977 era.
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Posted: January 08 2011 at 14:05
moshkito wrote:
mr.cub wrote:
[quote] Not on the Wall. As a drummer I cannot say that Mason has a particularly great feel for music. I would consider his drumming to be dull, mechanical and really nothing more than a metronome on the Wall.
We need to get you to sit through "Live in Pompeii" ... too bad that you are comparing him to some of the metal thrashig kids nowadays that can only count to 4, and barely do wipeouts that last any more than 4 beats
I have seen Live in Pompeii...and I never compared him to a metal thrash drummer. I'm explicitly citing this (which embodies the majority of his work on the Wall).... And as I said before, this is the fall of the band
and no one here is going to say that Jeff Beck stunk up the album ...
I'll put my hand up and say that I haven't heard Beck play anything I've actually liked since his 60s recordings (and I'm not including Hi Ho Silver Lining). He may win countless polls and be considered the guitarists' guitarist but he just doesn't do it for me.
As for the "fall" of PF, I don't like the sound of their albums after Waters left, or Waters' solo albums. This is to do with the production and not any particular change in songwriting, band chemistry etc.
Edited by A B Negative - January 03 2011 at 07:06
"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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Posted: December 31 2010 at 13:47
mr.cub wrote:
To be honest with you, I probably would have too! Who are you Roberto Alomar? Spitting on another person??? ... because it means that the music you (or I, or PF) created is not important and that you only want a souvenir or an autograph to prove to yourself that you were there ... no matter what it takes! That's as selfish as Roger's comments if not more so ... ohhh wait ... we worship star seekers here!
I'll reserve judgement since you obviously ignored, or dis-regarded the reference ... as to how you would feel if it was you ... do you defend the money you are taking in, or do you stick up for the art and the work you do. Be careful ... one answer will never make you famous or take you to the heights that you obviously so worship but have no guts to stand up for!
Not on the Wall. As a drummer I cannot say that Mason has a particularly great feel for music. I would consider his drumming to be dull, mechanical and really nothing more than a metronome on the Wall.
We need to get you to sit through "Live in Pompeii" ... too bad that you are comparing him to some of the metal thrashig kids nowadays that can only count to 4, and barely do wipeouts that last any more than 4 beats!
But it became one, when Roger heard things in his head that were becoming difficult for others to do Heard his own ego saying to himself...Yeah I'm bigger than the band ... which ...
I don't think he did, and in person he is not the megalomaniac that we're making him out to be ... he's very intelligent, educated and quite knowledgeable and capable of holding a conversation very wll.
I do think that he might have gotten frustrated with trying to present his ideas, and on a bad day with gas someone said ... I don't feel like it ... but I doubt that Roger would do that to anyone in the band ... they had already come through so much and too far and for too long, to be that insensitive and stupid. I don't find that Roger's work is not as good ... I find "Amused to Death" as good, if not better than "The Wall" for example, and much better focused ... but sometimes one has to put aside their own tastes and abilities to do something else ... and no one here is going to say that Jeff Beck stunk up the album ... he was phenomenal, but I am not sure that David could have given it the harder rock edge that Roger might have been looking for, because Dave is probably too much based on melody, rather than anything else in the music itself ... in that sense, yeah .. he's more of a rock'n'roll'er than the other 3.
Thx
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted: December 31 2010 at 11:26
they never had a permanent fall they hit bad fazes and roadblocks like any band does, Syd Barrett leaving was a fall so was Rick Wright leaving and so was Roger Waters quiting. But they did always come back with something until they decided to retire in 95' with all of their dignity and creative integrity very much intact
The arean rock thing is a true intent. In The Flesh and In The Flesh? were supposed to be parodoes of the big stadium rock sound (Big, bland full of tension and fear. Etc.) Taken in context - as played by an anonymous surrogate band this turned out quiet effective. It was meant to be a joke but no one got it ---- the joke (what exactly is a...?)
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Posted: December 31 2010 at 01:03
moshkito wrote:
mr.cub wrote:
Personally feel they lost it when Roger Waters spit in a fan's face on the Animals tour. This propagated the The Wall concept that Roger had been considering throughout the tour which reared its ugly head on the double album, an album which I really want to enjoy but cannot get around the fact that it is just uninspiring.
Roger had more than one upset moment ... there is at least one bootleg that he got upset with fans for fighting for pieces of the pig, and he swore at them.
To be honest with you, I probably would have too! Who are you Roberto Alomar? Spitting on another person??? ... because it means that the music you (or I, or PF) created is not important and that you only want a souvenir or an autograph to prove to yourself that you were there ... no matter what it takes! That's as selfish as Roger's comments if not more so ... ohhh wait ... we worship star seekers here!
I feel Styx or Journey could have pulled off the same sound on the Wall. Nick Mason's drumming could have been accomplished by any adequate replacement, cannot say any of Richard Wright's keyboard work is all to memorable either. Gilmour's guitar-work settles into a dull niche that many a less skilled guitar player could have put to the table(not like his work on Animals, Dsotm, or Wywh).
This is grossly unfair and a really distorted comparison. How so? The mixing of the drums is the same, the keyboard work is equally complementary and in the background, putting the guitar work is put in the foreground and frankly Gilmour drops a fat one
I'm not going to say that one musician is better or worse than another, but those 2 bands could not create something original and meaningful is that so???? ... specially after their lead singers left. And "Behind the Music" had talked to one of those lead singers ... who came back, and had hiw own piece already written, and Styx was upset, but they played it ... and it became their biggest selling album! And Journey has been crap since their Mr. Perry left ... trying to find carbon copies! ... how's that for bad musicianship ... that they can't even respect the very person they loved the most and made them the most money! I never mentioned anything about the Journey or Styx lead singers, I was commenting on the sound of the band. On the Wall Pink Floyd sounds like a band sucked off all originality in terms of their sound. Additionally the song writing is weak because it falls into cliches and itnto terribly unoriginal pomposity equivalent to these other arena rock bands. Big deal Journey still tours...Gilmour tours with a battalion of backup singers and other session musicians that could have landed in Normandy and taken Berlin in three weeks.
Nick Mason has one thing that most drummers don't have ... specially today with these metronome actors out there, that can't drum at all ... they can only keep time. Nick has a "feel" for music, mood and touch, Not on the Wall. As a drummer I cannot say that Mason has a particularly great feel for music. I would consider his drumming to be dull, mechanical and really nothing more than a metronome on the Wall.
that 90% of all the "progressive" drummers do NOT have. Richard ... how sad that you do not think he is good .. perhaps you should get an 8 track machine and separate his work ... it's spacey, jazzy, moody, and far out ... and really well played and thought out I appreciate Wright's work before the wall but frankly feel its lousy on that release
... but if all you like is riff players, you are definitly listening to the wrong band, and Pink Floyd is not what you like or could ever appreciate. Oh I appreciate Floyd but Dave's riffs on the wall are derivatives!!!!. Dave is an excellent guitarist, and maybe not notewise, but few could find, in their day, the moment to soar above it all ... which he learned doing things like Saucerful of Secrets and Astronomy Domine. Boom examples of Gilmour doing great things not playing like some replacement arena rock guitarist of the late 70s and 80s. But his greatest gift, was using pedals and effects to enhance his playing and sound ... which today is second nature to all those cheapas$ guitarists that we listen to in many a "prog" band!
By pressing his creative agenda on the rest of the band, waters made them dispensable as musicians because frankly this band had always worked best writing as a collective whole.
It was always a collaborative effort, with the problem that Roger had a better knack for lyrics than the other 3 did, and David finally came to it after DSOTM ... it was not a big deal. But it became one, when Roger heard things in his head that were becoming difficult for others to do Heard his own ego saying to himself...Yeah I'm bigger than the band ... which you could easily see in his own solo albums! But to say that Richard was not a good keyboard player ... is sad ... and terribly hurting ... he was phenomenal, but maybe he was one of those people that can help you ... but you have to go slow ... so he can adjust to it! Never said he wasnt good. He's lousy on the wall because he was too coked up to play anything worth listening to. Great Gig in the Sky is a favorite of mine and I love Rick's work up until the Wall when he becomes a side show to Roger's ego
Nick Mason has one thing that most drummers don't have ... specially today with these metronome actors out there, that can't drum at all ... they can only keep time. Nick has a "feel" for music, mood and touch, that 90% of all the "progressive" drummers do NOT have.
[quote]
Yes, that's it. Feel. There's a thread I began about under appreciated musos and to me Mason is one. He may not be a tech wizard like Bruford / Peart but that feel and imagination that gave Saucer and Time such depth could not have been achieved by anybody else. Tech ability is one thing but here it's where the individual shines and becomes. Yes, it was his instinct and creativity that along with the others makes these albums of material inspire debate, discussion and diatribe...
One must take into account the individual. Roger is a very competitive driven man whereas Wright is not. Wright is not a rocker - he hardly makes an appearance on much of More for instance - they're a power trio on the Nile Song. But Up The Khyber and Quicksilver are very much his thing.
Wright's first big contribution to Floyd was his arrangements and harmonies for the first album. Syd's tunes yes, but without Wright it would have been say an album that would be more like a folk rock effort. probably a good one but their organist lifted it into that realm of uniqueness. This in turn probably inspired Waters' ideas that were a ball that kept on rolling.
I have a copy, as yet not heard of PF at Knebworth in 1975. Apparently in the hot sun and the for effect two Spitfires sent the keyboards out of tune. Leaving Wright isolated, out of tune and the experience pretty well destroyed him. He's wasn't like Roger and get steamed up but move on.
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Posted: December 30 2010 at 16:00
mr.cub wrote:
Personally feel they lost it when Roger Waters spit in a fan's face on the Animals tour. This propagated the The Wall concept that Roger had been considering throughout the tour which reared its ugly head on the double album, an album which I really want to enjoy but cannot get around the fact that it is just uninspiring.
Roger had more than one upset moment ... there is at least one bootleg that he got upset with fans for fighting for pieces of the pig, and he swore at them.
To be honest with you, I probably would have too! ... because it means that the music you (or I, or PF) created is not important and that you only want a souvenir or an autograph to prove to yourself that you were there ... no matter what it takes! That's as selfish as Roger's comments if not more so ... ohhh wait ... we worship star seekers here!
I feel Styx or Journey could have pulled off the same sound on the Wall. Nick Mason's drumming could have been accomplished by any adequate replacement, cannot say any of Richard Wright's keyboard work is all to memorable either. Gilmour's guitar-work settles into a dull niche that many a less skilled guitar player could have put to the table(not like his work on Animals, Dsotm, or Wywh).
This is grossly unfair and a really distorted comparison. I'm not going to say that one musician is better or worse than another, but those 2 bands could not create something original and meaningful ... specially after their lead singers left. And "Behind the Music" had talked to one of those lead singers ... who came back, and had hiw own piece already written, and Styx was upset, but they played it ... and it became their biggest selling album! And Journey has been crap since their Mr. Perry left ... trying to find carbon copies! ... how's that for bad musicianship ... that they can't even respect the very person they loved the most and made them the most money!
Nick Mason has one thing that most drummers don't have ... specially today with these metronome actors out there, that can't drum at all ... they can only keep time. Nick has a "feel" for music, mood and touch, that 90% of all the "progressive" drummers do NOT have. Richard ... how sad that you do not think he is good .. perhaps you should get an 8 track machine and separate his work ... it's spacey, jazzy, moody, and far out ... and really well played and thought out ... but if all you like is riff players, you are definitly listening to the wrong band, and Pink Floyd is not what you like or could ever appreciate. Dave is an excellent guitarist, and maybe not notewise, but few could find, in their day, the moment to soar above it all ... which he learned doing things like Saucerful of Secrets and Astronomy Domine. But his greatest gift, was using pedals and effects to enhance his playing and sound ... which today is second nature to all those cheapas$ guitarists that we listen to in many a "prog" band!
By pressing his creative agenda on the rest of the band, waters made them dispensable as musicians because frankly this band had always worked best writing as a collective whole.
It was always a collaborative effort, with the problem that Roger had a better knack for lyrics than the other 3 did, and David finally came to it after DSOTM ... it was not a big deal. But it became one, when Roger heard things in his head that were becoming difficult for others to do ... which you could easily see in his own solo albums! But to say that Richard was not a good keyboard player ... is sad ... and terribly hurting ... he was phenomenal, but maybe he was one of those people that can help you ... but you have to go slow ... so he can adjust to it!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Posted: December 30 2010 at 06:26
I belong to those who think that Floyd never fell from anywhere.
Even under severe internal issues they managed to put out 2 great albums such as The Wall and The Final Cut, and if this was not enough they managed Roger's depature more than worthily, I have no problem with Momentary neither with The Division Bell and their live shows continued being great, having what I consider one of the best live sounds ever.
My favourite period though is from Meddle till The Wall both inclusive.
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Posted: December 30 2010 at 01:40
Personally feel they lost it when Roger Waters spit in a fan's face on the Animals tour. This propagated the The Wall concept that Roger had been considering throughout the tour which reared its ugly head on the double album, an album which I really want to enjoy but cannot get around the fact that it is just uninspiring. The Wall has some very good material on it but it bears the resemblance of rehashed arena rock mixed with disco at times, not the cutting edge art-rock of their previous albums which are distinctive.
I feel Styx or Journey could have pulled off the same sound on the Wall. Nick Mason's drumming could have been accomplished by any adequate replacement, cannot say any of Richard Wright's keyboard work is all to memorable either. Gilmour's guitar-work settles into a dull niche that many a less skilled guitar player could have put to the table(not like his work on Animals, Dsotm, or Wywh).
By pressing his creative agenda on the rest of the band, waters made them dispensable as musicians because frankly this band had always worked best writing as a collective whole. Floyd in my mind is desperately trying to hold on with the release of The Wall but somewhere in the children choir chorus' of Another Brick in the Wall the band that was in the late 60s and the 70s was no more in my eyes
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Posted: December 30 2010 at 00:30
Dellinger wrote:
^ But you have said "except The Division Bell", that makes all the discography you say you dislike after Waters left only one album, "Momentary Lapse of Reason". And for me, Final Cut is not "Classic Floyd" either, for it is exclusivley written by Waters, and Wright was not part of the band then, and you can hear a huge difference there... as a matter of fact, I would be a bit tempted to say that not even "The Wall" is "Classic Floyd" either.
this whole thread though is about when do you think floyd fell and just because i like the divison bell doesn't mean i consider it floyd at their best or most "classic" and i only have the final cut included there becuase its like what the other guy said its a continuation of of the wall and fills in gaps in the concept but no its not really classic floyd and the wall it still is classic floyd espically disc two with comfortably numb,stop,the trial,vera,hey you and nobody home
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Posted: December 29 2010 at 23:14
^ But you have said "except The Division Bell", that makes all the discography you say you dislike after Waters left only one album, "Momentary Lapse of Reason". And for me, Final Cut is not "Classic Floyd" either, for it is exclusivley written by Waters, and Wright was not part of the band then, and you can hear a huge difference there... as a matter of fact, I would be a bit tempted to say that not even "The Wall" is "Classic Floyd" either.
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Posted: December 29 2010 at 22:36
moshkito wrote:
paroxix wrote:
what i meant by that was the final cut was a good album and was the last good floyd album in my opinion (except the divison bell) so i liked it becuase of the war themes in it but a momentary laspe of reason wasn't so good but when roger waters left after the final cut it all went downhill so the final cut is the last true floyd album
Ohhh ... I get it ... if you like it because of Roger, then it is good ... and if you don't like it is ain't good ...
You do know that if the artist was me, or you, what we would say, right? ... I wouldn't want you to buy my work! And please leave off!
Pink Floyd was an "entity" ... not one person ... and I'm not sure that "The Wall" would have stood out as well as it did without David's guitar work, or Richard's excellent keyboards, and Roger's dedication to his own feelings to help make it what it became ... and there are many things in there that David has no problem singing or playing with.
What you want to say, is that the "entity" was not the same as the one that you thought you liked better ... but that doesn't make it the last "true" Pink Floyd album ... the ones that David did, also count ... not to you ... but to everyone ... and above all ... to the people involved, because you are denying them their life! Think about it!
still not explaing my self fully i love floyd after meddle and until the final cut while early floyd is quire good its not my cup of tea. also after rogers left i feel floyd fell apart becuase there wasn't a great song writing partnership is the band any more and david took over which i feel wasn't good for the band and the final cut is the last floyd AS I KNOW FLOYD ALBUM becuase they're still in there most sucessful lineup and what waters and gilmour did together was AMAZING honestly the final cut is one of my least favourite floyd album I'll take anything over it. its just i don't like any floyd albums after the wall but the final cut is when classic floyd ended
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The fall of Pink Floyd
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uduwudu wrote:
. And as I said before, this is the fall of the band
