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sigod View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 30 2008 at 07:01
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by sigod sigod wrote:

And what about new, neo-prog bands which are near Neo? Where does that leave near Neo bands which are not new Neo?

Let's not forget Neo bands which are neither new near Neo, nor not new but near Neo.

This issue must be resolved at once!
 

Sigod, before making radical changes (Which must be approved by M@X), we need to have at least a bio for every band, and this is taking us a long time because the lack of information of many Neo bands, as a fact a good percentage doesn't have am official or unofficial website and some are not even mentioned in the web.

Remember that some of this bands were not only unpopular, but some released a demo or a cassette in the early/mid 80's (when the CD was not popular and the LP's were already rare).

We need to know what we have and, listen at least one album of each band before we take decisions, if not, we would be irresponsible.

Still we have many bands without bios, photo, website and not even a single review
 
Iván


Sorry Ivan mate. I was having a bit of fun with the english language back there. It was a joke designed to illustrate my personal frustration about the complexity and ultimate futility of defining endless sub-genres.

I should have put an Wink at the end (like I did just then) Wink and indeed, there too. Oh god, now I'm confusing the issue further. Confused It's really frustrating Angry. I really need to stop using the emoticons so much Embarrassed
I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2008 at 02:01
Originally posted by sigod sigod wrote:

And what about new, neo-prog bands which are near Neo? Where does that leave near Neo bands which are not new Neo?

Let's not forget Neo bands which are neither new near Neo, nor not new but near Neo.

This issue must be resolved at once!
 

Sigod, before making radical changes (Which must be approved by M@X), we need to have at least a bio for every band, and this is taking us a long time because the lack of information of many Neo bands, as a fact a good percentage doesn't have am official or unofficial website and some are not even mentioned in the web.

Remember that some of this bands were not only unpopular, but some released a demo or a cassette in the early/mid 80's (when the CD was not popular and the LP's were already rare).

We need to know what we have and, listen at least one album of each band before we take decisions, if not, we would be irresponsible.

Still we have many bands without bios, photo, website and not even a single review
 
Iván
            
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Logan View Drop Down
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Points: 36940 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2008 at 19:10
Looks good, Ivan.

Simon, it's one humdinger of a conundrum.
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sigod View Drop Down
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Points: 2779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2008 at 19:06
And what about new, neo-prog bands which are near Neo? Where does that leave near Neo bands which are not new Neo?

Let's not forget Neo bands which are neither new near Neo, nor not new but near Neo.

This issue must be resolved at once!
I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2008 at 14:27
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I'd quite like a new category called Nu-Symph for bands such as Spock's Beard (which I equate with Neo-Prog as it is inspired by Genesis and has AOR/melodic rock/ pop qualities).

EDIT: Actually, I tend to feel that bands such as The Tangent (which is in Eclectic), Spock's Beard (which is in Symph), Neil Morse (which is in Symph), Izz (which is in Symph), Magenta (which is in Neo), Echolyn (which is in Symph), Iona (which is in Prog Folk) could be put together under an AOR/Melodic Prog category.

Just remembered: This site could be a useful reference for creating such a category (which could have Neo, and others, as a subcategory): http://www.melodicrock.com/
 
As a fact, we created that on Feb 18, 2007, but we didn't had time to implement it:
 
Quote

I.- SYMPHONIC PROG ERAS:

 

 

2.      Neo-Symphonic: Somewhere in the mid '70s, a new sound began to emerge. The Classic era bands reached a peak of complexity and experimentation that was hard to accept by most fans, albums like Relayer by Yes or The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway that today are considered masterpieces by own right, required a bit of time before being accepted by the audience.

The only alternative was to slow down or if possible place reverse speed and start to simplify a bit the sound and they took it,  in the case of Genesis it was a natural evolution because Peter Gabriel left the band and the sound of Phil Collins is much more transitional.

 

In the case of Yes it was a bit forced being that the complexity of Patrick Moraz had changed the sound of the band radically, so Rick Wakeman returned but he also had changed his sound giving the first steps towards the New Age music that he embraced in the 80’s and the final product was friendlier, the same happened with ELP that returned to their fan base after a 4 year sabbatical with Works, which included a very soft and ballad oriented Lake side.

 

General time frames: This period starts between  1975 and 1978 with the release of such albums as “A Trick of the Tail”, “Going for the One”, “Voyage of the Acolyte” or the already mentioned “Works Vol. I” and ends around 1990 with the fading of the Neo Prog peak.

 

 

 
Not as a new sub-genre (God knows the last thing we want are more sub-genres), but as a Symphonic era.
 
As soon as we finish the Neo cleaning (Now will be easier with BBeto back and DB helping us), now is the time, we have the OK from M@X.
 
Iván
 
            
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Points: 36940 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2008 at 13:51
I'd quite like a new category called Nu-Symph for bands such as Spock's Beard (which I equate with Neo-Prog as it is inspired by Genesis and has AOR/melodic rock/ pop qualities).

EDIT: Actually, I tend to feel that bands such as The Tangent (which is in Eclectic), Spock's Beard (which is in Symph), Neil Morse (which is in Symph), Izz (which is in Symph), Magenta (which is in Neo), Echolyn (which is in Symph), Iona (which is in Prog Folk) could be put together under an AOR/Melodic Prog category.

Just remembered: This site could be a useful reference for creating such a category (which could have Neo, and others, as a subcategory): http://www.melodicrock.com/


Edited by Logan - October 29 2008 at 14:09
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2008 at 13:37
^ I don't think renaming Neo Progressive to Neo Symphonic is a good idea. Firstly because Neo-Prog is the accepted terminology and secondly because it raises the question of what to do with the Neo bands that are not particularily symphonic in style
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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2008 at 13:31
"I would change the name to Neo Symphonic."

I could live with that.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2008 at 13:20
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

I'm generally a fan of most Neo-Prog, but I've never really been able to get a handle on the real differences between Neo and symphonic.  This has led me in the past to say that Neo doesn't actually exist and I tend to see things much in that way still.  After all in a world where Izz and Echolyn are Symphonic and IQ and Magenta are Neo it seems that there may be more confusion than clarity.
 
I believe there are clear differences:
  1. The guitar takes the lead instead of the keyboard
  2. Neo is lighter (not a scientoific word) with mainstream influences that go from AOR to New Age.
  3. Modern pompous keyboards a la Ian Hammer in Miami Vice or Europe instead of Baroquie , Classic or whatever keys (Not necessarilly)

Bands like Magenta are very special, started Symphonic with Revolutions, went Neo with Seven and God knows what they are playing now, because they jump from one extreme of the spectrum to the other.

But at the end I also agree Neo is really Neo Symphonic, because it's a conservative evolution or historic stage of Symphonic which started to appear before most people believe (A Trick of te Tail).
 
I would change the name to Neo Symphonic.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 29 2008 at 13:05
I'm generally a fan of most Neo-Prog, but I've never really been able to get a handle on the real differences between Neo and symphonic.  This has led me in the past to say that Neo doesn't actually exist and I tend to see things much in that way still.  After all in a world where Izz and Echolyn are Symphonic and IQ and Magenta are Neo it seems that there may be more confusion than clarity.
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Points: 2779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2008 at 12:25
Too late Rachel! Big smile
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Points: 2696 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2008 at 14:33
Clown   Me too, Simon speaks a lot of sense (don't tell him I said that though, I'll never live it down!)


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Points: 4702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2008 at 14:26
Yeah, it was read and understood. And subsequently ignored in favour of a juvenile joke Tongue

And I generally agree with the point Sigod makes.
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Points: 36940 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2008 at 14:18
^Did you read the post that Wilcey was responding to?

Let's start with Sturgeon's Revelation: "Ninety percent of everything is crap” (Sturgeon).

Add the last line of Sigod's post (by doing so it is taken out of context, but...): "Is Neo Prog crap? Sure. It is brilliant? Absolutely. See how that makes for uncomfortable reading?"

Now Wilcey's post which follows: "Clap   I love brilliant crap! Tongue"

I'm just not sure if the context, or humour, was understood, especially as Wilcey likes Neo-Prog (see the reviews):
Neo-Progressive94.11


Edited by Logan - October 24 2008 at 14:22
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Points: 4702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2008 at 14:08
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Wilcey Wilcey wrote:

Clap   I love brilliant crap! Tongue
 Pinch


Pinch is right. You should have learnt by now not to eat Christmas decorations...
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2008 at 08:59
Originally posted by Wilcey Wilcey wrote:

Clap   I love brilliant crap! Tongue
 Pinch
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Points: 2696 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2008 at 08:57
Clap   I love brilliant crap! Tongue
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sigod View Drop Down
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Points: 2779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2008 at 08:55

I’ll just go with Sturgeon’s Law as it often eases the hold genres can have over us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeons_law 

On a slightly unrelated point, it seems to me that the prime function of a genre (in this instance Neo-prog) is to allow an individual to make an ‘at a glance’ judgement on which to base a decision. It also affords a person the luxury of never having to re-examine their opinion in any great detail again.

I guess it’s easier to dislike an entire sub genre and leave it at that, than to listen to every album on its own merit .i.e. its human nature to find the path of least resistance.

The sad truth of the matter is that on the whole, people do not WANT to have their opinions changed even if a reasonable argument is proffered. It can be used as an excuse to re-enforce one’s personal worldviews and to attempt to impose those views upon another. If you want a good example of that principle at work, just look at any daytime talkshow like Jerry Springer and you’ll start to get the picture.

Is Neo Prog crap? Sure. It is brilliant? Absolutely. See how that makes for uncomfortable reading?



Edited by sigod - October 24 2008 at 13:49
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Points: 153 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2008 at 03:26
red jasper is a fantastic band, and winter's tale is a must have, only for one of the best solos in prog rock in shamen song..!!
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2008 at 08:07
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

BTW, a lot of people critiqued progressive in the 70's, as its original goal was to fuse elements of classical and jazz with rock - as dragging the genre of rock backwards. They were borrowing elements of much older genres, and taking away what was new about rock and roll.On paper, you can prove or disprove anything. The real test is, what do you feel when you listen to it?Experimental music of every genre tends to go in the same direction - dissonance, avoidance of traditional meters. Maybe the true innovators know how to make unusual elements sound familiar, which is a lot trickier to do than to be obviously avant-garde.


I very much like that last paragraph, John; the challenge of using 'unusual elements' to create the 'familar'

I think that principle applies to much of the prog rock, that I'm drawn to. The 'obviously avant garde' appeals to me much less.
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