Neo prog bands, is there a real problem?
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Topic: Neo prog bands, is there a real problem?
Posted By: AlexUC
Subject: Neo prog bands, is there a real problem?
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 20:09
After reading some opinions (http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52033&PN=1) about the "hard feelings" against some neo prog bands, I just wanted to know your thoughts. Let's discuss (just keeping the respect to other's opinions  ) about the bad perception sometimes the genre suffers (even sometimes not considered as a prog subgenre). So, what do you think? I know this has been discussed before, but I could not find any specific thread.Personally I have several problems with these bands (including IQ, Marillion, Magenta, Pendragon), I'm going to point some (just generalizations, obviously you'll find exceptions): - Lack of creativity. I feel sometimes the songs (even whole albums) are just repeated formulas and copy-paste elements. I.e: half of Marillion's discography. - Mainstream oriented acts: I've found this music much more mainstream oriented than early symph prog. Just an elitist and very relative detail. - Simplicity: Maybe it's related with creativity, but in terms of structure, neo prog bands tend to be much simpler and less experimental. - Anti-progressive concept: Finally, I think this genre applied exactly the opposite meaning of progressive music. It's much more simpler, keeps melodic and easy-to-listen structures, refugees in the symph reinvention, has no real experimentation. Sorry to the neo prog lovers, I don't want to offend the real neo prog experts, and I need to say that I'm not an expert in this field, so, maybe I just need to expand my ears, but I think I'm not the only one here... so what do you think? EDIT: If the topic has been discussed, just delete it... Sorry in case, I was just wondering ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Replies:
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 20:18
 ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 20:26
^ 
Who didn't see that coming?
------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 20:47
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Eh, seen enough of these and they've become tiresome. Movin' on. E ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 21:05
------------- 
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AlexUC wrote:Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 22:24
| A basic problem I have with the sound of Neo-Prog is that it's too closely aligned with melodic rock/AOR, and I don't tend to care for melodic rock/AOR. I have a question. If in the '80s people generally wanted something simpler, when there was something of a Prog resurgence in the '90s, did many "Prog-lite" (especially Neo-Prog) bands put out more complex, challenging, and adventurous material, and to what extent? |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 22:50
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The main problem for some is that neo prog drew some influences from what they considered to be overly commercial and non-progressive music such as AOR (not adult, but album oriented rock). That they incorporated much of Genesis' sound at the beginning only made it more galling to them. The best known bands such as Marillion and IQ have come into their own, and have a readily identifiable sound. They have also managed to keep a large number of fans happy over a very long career. Indeed, the genre itself is one of the more populous ones here at PA, outside the metal zone. So the problem resides not with Neo, but with its' detractors. There is sometimes a sense that it seen as a betrayal to their prog "ideals", when really they forget that prog also means the freedom to play the music that you want. It can be hardly said that Hogarth's Marillion and IQ are selling millions of albums. They are going concerns. We've read what Marillion went through to finance and record their latest. So if they are playing more "commercial" music, they don't seem to be reaping the rewards. Of course, it may just be that the anti-neo crowd would prefer to have these bands to have continued as Gabriel era Genesis sound-alikes, even as they decried them as pale imitations.  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 23:27
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As posted by others here, Neo bands of early/mid 80s helped keep the flame of the genre while many prog giants of the 70s were dormant or went pop.
IMO the 'standard' Neo sound lasted only a decade (the 80s) and since then bands labeled Neo have changed their sound going to New Symphonic or Eclectic or Crossover. ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Draith
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 23:33
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I'm not exactly a neo prog expert, but I've been listening to a lot of
the main neo prog albums bit lately and kind of see what you're getting
at. I don't sense much of any sort of build or "progression" in the
music, at least compared to the symphonic bands (and most other styles of prog). It is indeed pretty
repetitious, or at least everything that I have heard so far. I still
like it though. It's pretty lush music. And who cares much about simplicity, Dark Side of the Moon, I would say, is pretty simplistic, yet it is incredibly highly rated on this site as well. My complaints with the sub-genre is that I get the sense that there's not really much you can do with it without sounding a lot like all of the other previous bands, at least before it's no longer neo prog. I sort of like AOR, but I don't see how it has much to do with neo prog. If the sub-genre were really as commercial and AOR-ish as some people would have me believe, I should think my parents would have been big fans of neo prog.
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Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 00:15
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Ivan
Thanks for your detailed response, that kind of thoughts from the genre specialists is what I'm looking for. I agree with most of your ideas, but I just want to extend a little bit a couple of points.
Sure, you're right. Missed this one.
Not sure if completely progressive, at this time, the only intentional progressive music was RIO/Avant. But clearly more progressive than Yes/Genesis releases.
No, but if you take a complex formula to make it simpler, you're not being creative at all. However, I cannot say that neo prog bands always did it, but there were some clear cases.
An oxymoron right? Progressive has no relation with progress or evolution? I can not accept this even though it has been said by Budha, Jesus and Muhammad in choir. It doesn't make any sense. Well, I must accept that neo prog was the only light on he 80s (excluding RIO that was totally unknown), these guys kept doing more progressive music that Yes and Genesis were. However, I'm still unsure about the uniqueness and originality of this genre. Maybe what's left from my side is a couple of impartial listens to some representative neo prog albums. I promise my self to do that. As you might have noticed, I'm more on the RIO/Avant and classic prog side (well, not really a side...) so, the curious thing is that when you develop more on one "side" of sub genres, it becomes more difficult to understand the other. Really strange. Finally, I'm not trying to demonstrate something, I do respect the neo prog artists and fans, it's just a matter of taste if I don't catch it. I was just wondering why the genre is sometimes very underrated, but you've said something important, and is that the genre came after a big shot for prog. I will never say that neo prog is not real music, or these sort of unfounded arguments that I've read here from special collaborators and prog reviewers. That would be a real shame. Thanks again for your thoughts, Alex ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 00:15
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Avant-prog and zeuhl are the only genres that progress anything. You're all living delusions.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 00:32
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It strikes me that Neo-Prog was to the 80s what Indie is to the current time-frame. Maybe not the best music around, but a far damn cry better than the average commercial output. If the 80s were now, I surely would be listening to some neo-prog. However, it's not and I have the internet which allows me to learn about much more music than was ever possible before, so I don't have to settle. If I had lived through the 80s ( I was born in 86 so that really doesn't count) I'm sure I still would would listen to it for nostalgia's sake. Generally speaking, there's a huge gap in my music collection from 1977 until 1991, excepting Univers Zero cuz they pwn. (And some early Savatage *smiles sheepishly*) Edit: Btw, oh thee of the petrified facial hair, would you happen to be an Elder Scrolls fan? If not I apologize for nerding, but I can't help but notice your location is Balmora. |
Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 06:33
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You would miss out on some fabulous music and some classic albums over the years if your disregarded Neo IMHO.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 Colt - Admin Team MMA 
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 11:38
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I know my response isn't what you were looking for; however, I really am getting tired of defending it. Also tired of being questioned why I like it. It boils down to individuality. It's music that makes ME feel good. Period. E -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 12:03
Quite. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 12:11
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 12:41
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I also have a problem removing progressiveness (innovation and advancement of the rock lexicon) from rock in regards to Progressive Rock. Some label retro-prog as regressive rock (though clearly compositionally is of the Prog genre -- related to the movement). EDIT: unnecessary comment, but some bands like Anglagard, while deliberately look back to Prog's heyday, have a timeless quality to my ears, whereas others of the retro-prog variety sound dated and hokey (as with classic era albums -- some just seem so timeless to my ears. I like to play a fun game with my wife, well fun for me, but not for her, I play her music she doesn't know and ask here to guess what year it was made). And I tend to think, while a different yet related movement, that Rock in Opposition (and Avant Rock generally) held closer to the experimental qualities and breaking of genre conventions that was a part of the Prog movement as I see it than Neo-Prog and Retro-Prog which tended to look in part backward (especially retro) rather than forward. With RIO/ Avant, there was more of a deliberate intent to progress music (break convention, especially those expected by the music industry). It was in opposition to commercial interests. Incidentally, Ivan, I think given time and patience that you would "get" RIO/Avant. I've found that it can take a little rewiring of the brain, and not all of it is that complex (there is great variety). I liked it almost immediately -- being into jazz, modern academic music, as well as various types of experimental music already helped. It helps when you find gateway bands. I wonder what you would think of, say, U Totem's "Vagabond's Home"? |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 13:19
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I dont have a major problem with neo. It's not my favorite sub genre by far, but it's hard to deny that some brilliant songs have emerged from some of those bands. The only minor gripe I have was the digital production in the 80's. I will always favour the classic analogue sound. That said, I was a big Marillion fan in the day, and a fan of It Bites, and I also like pretty much everything IQ done in the 90's.
It's all down to personal taste. In terms of creativity, it's easy to disregard neo bands because of the general lack of 'progression' which arguably seems to go with the territory, but it depends how much you weigh up the importance of 'progressiveness' with that of just good songwriting. You could then get into an elongated debate about what constitutes a good song, but then that is a failry pointless and circular discussion which again comes down to taste. Just enjoy the music.. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 14:37
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The funny thing is that people talk about the lack of progressiveness of Neo Prog bands.....But they start and join 10 pages threads about barely Prog Related bands.
They dismiss Marillion and Pendragon, but want Toto, Funkadelic and Boston here.
This could be considered a paradox, but the real thing is that people want to add bands they like despite the genre, they like Boston and swear is the most Prog band since King Crimson, but because they don't like Marillion, they say the Bee Gees are more Prog.
 And some of this same people dare to call us close minded because we don't agree with Steely Dan, but they bash Pendragon.
 Iván -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 15:24
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Prog need not be progressive (advancing rock) of course, and sometimes there is confusion over the terminology (progressive as an adjective and Prog as a noun -- small p, big p differences, with a smattering of Zappa's "Why Does It Hurt When I Pee?" ). Some want to emphasise progressiveness more, or expand Prog's parameters, to allow in more "progressive" music that does not readily fit the Prog mould (a big, fuzzy mould that is anyway which is really diverse -- I'm rather more inclusive than many, even if not when it comes to Eclectic particularly, but one who would like to see the parameters progress -- particularly new categories). If a band is a clone of a well-recognised Prog band, it is much easier to recognise as Prog than a progressive band which, while sharing similar traits, is harder to associate, of course. A band like Funkadelic is not one I consider Prog, yet I think the notion of it being brought into the Prog fold intriguing because it is a kind of progressive funk-fusion band. With bands like Toto and Boston, I think there is a case for it in Prog-Related, and if the database to be comprehensive, then they should be considered. I don't see a paradox with supporting bands for Prog-Related (to make the category/ site more comprehensive) while discussing the lack of progressiveness in Neo-Prog or other categories/ bands. And discussing controversial choices as well as the parameters is always fun ( hopefully it doesn't interfere too much with evaluating the non-controversial choices, and checking new suggestions). The analogy rather fails for me on several levels. It would be foolish, though, if someone said that Neo-Prog should not be in a Prog category because it's not progressive. Unlike calls to remove proto and related, I haven't heard many people say that Neo-Prog should be removed from the site (the only ones might be those purists who believe that the Prog movement died in the 70's, and music that followed is not true Prog). It depends on how they dismiss Marillion and Pendragon, it's one thing to say it's not that progressive, it's another to say it's not Prog. I've supported inclusion of many bands that are not really progressive (again, small p), but just because I thought they fit a category (be it Eclectic, or elsewhere). |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 15:39
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Yep Logan, 10 pages for each Prog Related band and constant attacks for real Prog bands as the Neo Prog ones.
I see a contradiction.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 15:52
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It certainly can be problematic, at the least, when people passionately and emphatically support bands for inclusion that are neither that progressive nor Prog while denouncing Neo-Prog for its lack of progressiveness. I do think in quite a few cases that people support bands that are not Prog or progressive because they have a soft-spot for them (in some cases because they grew up with them.... That would be like me supporting Gary Numan for Prog-Related). |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 16:07
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I think it depends a bit on how you define "progressive". My problem with neo-prog is that it hardly ever bites, even when it rocks. It is simply way too harmonic for my taste; where are the occasional dissonances that make the music interesting? You don't have to be Avant / RIO to include the occasional dissonances. And early prog knew that, even bands like Gentle Giant. This is also the reason why I think the best Genesis album ever was "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway"; here they finally do what they should have done more often, in my opinion. I have a similar problem with prog metal, by the way. Loud and fast, but toothless barks most of the time. That's why I love a band like The Red Masque, who are also a newer band but definitely not neo; they are not afraid of dissonances at all. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 17:40
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I basically agree with bald jean on this one. The music lacks that power, like its too sickly sweet to really be filling. i also think it can get a little over dramatic and predictable in the melodies and general composition. but thats me and my taste and my opinion. i see how people could like them and i dont see how they arent progressive. i also like the comment about modern indie and 80's/90's neo prog. def. a step above just prog 'related' but not quite as progressive as yes or king crimson. but who is? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 20:16
Well, that´s easy. Although not prog Funkadelic and to lesser extend Toto and Boston brought something new, even though not prog. New and Neo prog seem almost oxymorons to my ears ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: September 27 2008 at 23:35
Yes , that's soooo damn right.Lately the site has caught an AOR fever whose synthoms are loads of Steely Dan, Boston , Journey etc. It's like as if the Americans wanna prove that they can be prog also.Because lets be honest , as much FZ and Miles you have.Progressive rock its british.
Now , to the neo prog issue.I see this genre as "cute little harmless prog" Why can't you see it that way also?
If neo prog is not progressive then what's left to Prog Metal????No matter how much Aeyron and Pain of Salvation I hear I won't be convinced that they are progressive.They are ambitious , ultra over the top and SOOOOOOOO CHEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!! They make look Rick Wakeman as a country artist.
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 01:33
Such as? ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 04:34
It certainly would be if it were the SAME people championing non-prog and prog-related bands as those attacking Neo-Prog. Are they really the same people? |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 04:37
MARILLION's 'Misplaced Childhood'. |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 04:40
That may well be so (though to my mind it's debatable - FISH-era MARILLION has plenty of bite, especially in the lyrics) but that doesn't mean Neo-Prog is not thoroughly progressive. Otherwise we'd have to re-evaluate RENAISSANCE and HARMONIUM, for starters. |
Posted By: apps79
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 05:32
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If you don't mind here's a little story that might help you all... When I was a teenager I used to listen mainly to a lot of heavy metal and classic rock bands.One day I bought a metal magazine.Under its whole package there was a free CD icluding about 20 tracks with the whole history of rock,starting from the 60's and how rock developed into heavy metal in the years to come...Among those tracks it was the ''Script for a jester's tear'' by MARILLION...I was shocked,words cant describe what I felt while listening to it...It was much more difficult structured,much more emotional,much more atmospheric and much darker than everything I had heard before...And that's the reason that today I own over a thousand albums of progressive rock...Isn't that a good reason to call this genre progressive...I think it is... Yes,Neo compared to the 70's giants is not that difficult music...But compared to other bands of alternative,classic,grunge or I don't know what kind of rock this is much more creative,complex and progressive...And do not forget that the roots of this music are coming from the 70's progressive rock...
Take care all of you...by someone who got into prog because of MARILLION,IQ and ARENA...
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Posted By: fusionfreak
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 05:47
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I'm not a neo prog expert.I just have 2 neo prog cds in my prog collection(I received them last week):IQ'sTales from lush attic and Pallas'sDreams of men.To me 1st one is Genesis like and very moving and the second,while not overtly complex and experimental,is fun to play.I don't think I will look
for many Neo works but I certainly will buy things from IQ,Marillion,Pallas or Abraxas.It is true that this
genre seems to be easier but one can't go against the fact that true progressive rock flows in its veins and
that 70's progressive greats such as Yes,Genesis or KC grew on people like Peter Nicholls,Martin Orford or Pete Trewavas.And there is excellent musicianship. ------------- I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world of searchers with the help from crimson king |
Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 07:10
I guess that depends on whether your request is to broaden your musical horizons or to flame my choices!  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 Colt - Admin Team MMA
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Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 07:38
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I believe that Neo Prog is great introductory prog for those who want to sample prog but not freak out or be turned off, however some people are happy to take the plunge into King Crimson, Magma and Gentle Giant it really all depends on personality types I think. I have found the odd complex neo prog band so I`m not saying that they are all simple but as a rule they tend to be more accessable probably because they tend to find the good notes straight away and and dont fiddle f@rt around as much noodling all day ... well I'm off now going to listen to the Flower Kings |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 07:54
quite right Steve....
well, here's 15 of my favourite Neo-Prog albums (one from each band, and in no particular order)...make of them what you will:
Marillion: Season's End
Arena: Pepper's Ghost
IQ: Ever
Pallas: Beat The Drum
Everon: Bridge
Jadis: More Than Meets The Eye
Twelfth Night: Fact And Fiction
Pendragon: Masquerade Overture
Clepsydra: Fears
Janison Edge: The Services Of Mary Goode
Iluvatar: Children
Collage: Moonshine
Primitive Instinct: Floating Tangibility
Grey Lady Down: Forces
Satellite: The Street Between Sunrise & Sunset
enjoy.... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 09:05
That's a mighty fine selection J. 
I would add Galahad's "Year Zero" to that list.
Add it to your must buy list if you don't have it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 Colt - Admin Team MMA
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 09:39
Marillion: Brave Marbles Misplaced Childhood Pendragon: Not Of This World Masquerade Overture The World Window Of Life IQ: Subterranea Dark Matter The Seventh House Arena: The Visitor Immortal? Contagion Fish: Vigil In The Wildnerness Of Mirrors 13th Star Sylvan: Posthumous Silence Collage: Moonshine Just to name a few. E -------------
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 09:59
^^^ I just knew some quality would be brought to this thread by the letter 'E'....
and thanks Steve...I might just do that.... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 12:06
I'm curious what you will say, I haven't heard any full neo albums so there's no much I can criticize you on other than disliking what I've heard of the genre. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 12:14
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^ I really like the Seventh House by IQ. It's one of their least-mentioned, but I think it's solid and reveals more than you originally overlook. Probably not a "classic," but it's still really good. And the Masquerade Overture by Pendragon is another good one.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 12:26
OK bud, my apologies. There have been more than one or two unwarranted and negative comments in this thread IMO.
Follow exactly what Stonebeard, E-Dub and Fandango have quoted you already. That's a great start.
Hopefully you will get some enjoyment out of what you hear! If not move on to another sub-genre but stay prog!  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 Colt - Admin Team MMA
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 12:28
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^^The Seventh House is neck and neck with Dark Matter. Subterranea, on the other hand, is my favorite. The neo disc I'm really enjoying lately is Sylvan's Posthumous Silence. It is a lot like Marillion's Brave in subject matter and impact. Absolutely incredible. E -------------
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Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 12:47
Since May 2005, when I joined PA, despite the many changes that have taken place, one thing above all seams to have remained a constant; whenever someone starts a thread asking for more info about Neo-Prog, it doesn't take very long before other forum members wade in with hob nail boots and start bashing the whole genre.....
 It used to really tick me off to be quite blunt, but these days I just let it all go over my head, because frankly, getting worked up about it won't stop the exactly the same comments being made about Neo, next time a thread is started...
Personally, I think E, Stonie and the other members of the Neo/Symph team do a great job, not only in promoting the genre on this site, but also growing a rather thick skin, in the process... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: progmetalhead
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 12:51
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112" rel="nofollow - http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112 Colt - Admin Team MMA
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 14:55
Even in the unproved case that Neo Prog wouldn't had brought anything new to Prog, something I completely deny, Non Prog bands can be all the innovative they want, but if not Prog (As you clearly say), they don't belong here. But what is new about the AOR proposal of
That's your respectable taste Friedre, but that's not the main characteristic of Symphonic and Neo Prog, both are melodic sub-genres, based in the blend of Rock and Classical (In the case of Symphonic) and Rock, Classical, AOR and mainstream in the case Neo Prog. So you can't ask a Symphonic band to play in the same level of complexity as Gentle Giant or post Lizard King Crimson, as a fact I never understood GG, but that doesn't make it less Prog, simply it's not my taste.
Again, it's your taste, I find Foxtrot much more adventurous with longer songs and complex metric as in Supper's Ready, with pristine keyboard sections as in Can-Utility and the Coastliners or a breathtaking intro as in Watcher of the Skies. As a fact many people consider The Lamb as the poppiest album of Gabriel Genesis, with shorter tracks and a lot of soft material, like for example Carpet Crawlers.
Again, you are talking about taste, Prog Metal has outstanding albums like most of the Symphony X or Pain of Salvation. All Prog doesn't need to be as complex as The Red Masque or bite you as Henry Cow to be Prog, there are different approaches. -------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 15:02
I wondered about that too. In fact, I would have thought that two of the bands Ivan cited in a former post, Toto and Boston, would have had more support from those who appreciate Neo-Prog than those who dismiss it since Neo-Prog draws on AOR/ melodic rock and it's those who prefer more avant/ experimental, dissonant, and less commercial forms of music that commonly dislike Neo-Prog. Of course one can support additions that don't appeal if one thinks it right for the site. I must say that I have a real fondness for Toto's work on the Dune soundtrack, and do like Toto, and am a big Avant fan. Anyway, I will exhoe the praise for those who share their enthusiam for Neo-Prog and help people to explore the genre. I'll make a recommendation from the Neo-Prog category that is not well-known. ../artist.asp?id=414 - CECCOTTI, MARC http://www.myspace.com/marcceccotti - http://www.myspace.com/marcceccotti http://www.myspace.com/marcceccotti%20 - Mind you, I wouldn't think of his late releases as Neo-Prog exactly. Check out the myspace (he was in Edhels which I quite like, but I think his solo work much more interesting). |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 16:26
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There are some really good recommendations here I'm giving attention, and for that I really thank to E-Dub, fandango and Ivan, because their knowledge of the genre is helping some people to inform before judge an genre like Neo Prog (me among them ).
In terms of progression, I see a basic difference between Neo prog and RIO/Avant. Neo prog tends to be more extensional, in the sense of expanding the progressive ideas keeping the (very fuzzily) defined frontiers of progressive rock. I see this idea very well explained by Ivan some posts before. We can't say neo prog is not progressive by definition, since the "progress" keeps inside de prog field. RIO/Avant goes more on the experimental side, including out-of-the-box elements (elements derived from experimentation, other genres, regional styles, even other kinds of art, etc..). I this case the progression goes out of the prog field, and that's what I was talking about while saying "intentionally progressive", because these bands has the real intention to broke the "rules" and redefine completely from scratch the way music is created. Well guys, personally I feel much more informed about the genre, I really appreciate all these comments from all of you. ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 16:31
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I have honestly tried to get into neo prog and listened to Arena,
Clepsydra, Pendragon and Marillion. Of Marillion I only liked the first
two, the second more than the first; the rest of Marillion was not
interesting at all. Clepsydra, Pendragon and Arena were as boring as
hell, repeating formulas that were outdated in the late 70s already. If
this is the spear tip of neo prog I don't bother to hear the rest.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 17:15
That's absolutely fine Alex; many thanks for your kind comments... there are some very knowledgable people in the Neo field in this forum, who would very much enjoy chatting to you about the genre...if you find something you like and would like some suggestions for similar albums you may enjoy, please just ask...------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 17:50
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I must say when I was a fairly new member to this fine site, I came up with a topic called " http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25744 - Most complex, challenging, original, neo-prog band? " and I found people incredibly helpful (even got PMs recommending considerable music based on my particular expressed tastes at the time that he thought I would like -- good recommendations). I was really impressed. The band I particularly liked that was recommended as a sort of Neo-Prog crossover band was Discipline (subsequently it was moved to Symphonic Prog). When looking for recommendations it really helps when people know the music you most like (styles and bands) and then can offer recommendations in a category that shares similar qualities (recommendations based on your personal tastes -- easier done in Eclectic than other categories  ).Can anyone think of other artists in Neo-Prog that follow a similar musical path to Marc Ceccotti? See my last post. His music really appeals to me. |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 18:02
Isnt that what this whole thread is about? or any of these threads for that matter. Theres the fact that neo simply isnt as complex as Rio or Zeuhl or old-school symphonic. does that make it better or worse? Again, your talking about taste. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 18:04
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The division of Prog on sub-genres, it's cause they have different styles, but each having the "basic Prog elements"
Neo-Prog is common to have a mainstream feel, since the BIG Neo Proggers came from the 80's, 80's=Pop, Synth, Punk, etc.. It would be ilogic to not have some of these influences, check Zappa or Crimson, both of these 2 genius bands had their poppy songs in the 80's, as well as MAGMA!! Simplicity? Well maybe, compared to the GIANTS, but still generally these bands have long structured songs, with time changes. Eg: the entire Masquerade Overture by Pendragon. It's common to some bands to copy formulas, not saying it's a good thing, but it's not really an odd thing. BTW: I'm no BIG Neo Prog fan, in fact, I just like Script by Marillion and the classic Pendragon albums.. Merely those can also qualify as Retro as well. |
Posted By: splyu
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 18:35
This, I feel, is a good point. While most or all Neo-Prog may not be as complex as 70s Genesis or Yes, there are many many bands from the 70s that, in turn, aren't more complex than Marillion or Pendragon, perhaps less so. Just for one example, Novalis are listed as Symphonic Prog here, and as far as I'm familiar with them, they really aren't very complex at all. But I still agree with putting them in the Sympho category. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 22:31
No it isn't, if it was I would had said nothing or repled a correct opinion like Bald Friedre's, she clearly stated that it was her taste.
But this thread started as a "Lets bash Neo Prog", but when it comes to talk about a barely Prog Related band (Despite it's the same person or not), we find 10 pages and 100 replies.
If people talk about taste, I have nothing to say.
Iván
-------------
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 23:15
So far the only points the OP has raised about neo is that he doesnt like the simplicity, thinks its anti progressive, and the fact that it reminds him of the 70's giants bothers him. Most of the other posts reiterate this. It reminds logan of AOR, which he dislikes. Debrew guy mentioned the same thing. Its still about taste. I don think his intention was malicious. You have a right to be frustrated since this topic has been discussed ad nausium but i still think that his post could be edited down to something along the lines of Fried's and still get his point across without offending anyone, without bringing up the touchy "is it progressive? not really because..." issue. He seems new to the forum, i wouldnt expect him to get it all right the first go around. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 23:25
You know what is the funny thing, I'm not that Neo Prog fan, my first love is Symphonic, but existing a close relation between Symph and Neo, I dedicate a lot of time to learn about Neo Prog in the last few years.
What really frustrates me and talked about this with Guigo and Eric (Olav and Cloud Zero are relative newbies in the team, so we haven had time to discuss it) is that sometimes we feel that the effort we placed in finding info about almost unknown Neo bands (believe me, it's ten times harder than in the case of Symphonic) is futile, because at the end people don't care about Neo and most of the few that care spend most of their time bashing it.
Even pisses me more that fans of some clearly Neo bands PM us to move them to Symphonic, because they don't like the Neo term (Of course they use the excuse that they hate labels, but the few we moved, don't have any problem with the band being labeled as Symphonic).
Sometimes I feel most people take the term Neo Prog as an insult.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 01:27
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hang in there Ivan (and EDub), this is an archives and Neo must be properly represented, someone has to do it |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 05:12
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Funny you say this, David, because I often feel that way too. And I have to say I like the last part of page two and the beginning of this page of the thread a lot where the neoproggers strike back ! (thanks Jared).They already mentioned some of the best neo prog albums (Satellite, Collage, Clepsydra, Pendragon, Iluvatar) and I would like to add Jadis, Skeem, Apple Pie and Knight Area. But seriously I get the feeling that there is a huge gap between the RIO/eclectic/Zeuhl fans on one side and the neoproggers/progmetalists (like me) on the other. It's a gap so big that we may conclude we are talking about totally different genres instead of the assumed fact we are all proggers as one big happy family.
But like Jared I also am developping a thick skin for all the bashing and negativism about my favourite genre eventhough I'm glad there are "soulmates" like Ivan who really stick up for the genre.
I also recognized something in the story of Psarros and his introduction in prog. He stated that Marillion already had a big impact on him. That was also the case for me in a way, nowadays I'm more experienced in prog and I even like Gourishankar and Anglagard but for newbies in the genre Marillion and Pendragon are already a lot to take in. And then to think it's "only" NEO.
I understand as well what the "true" progressive fans see in their fav styles and don't see in neo (too harmonic, too cheesy) eventhough I totally disagree. Because I do understand that they want to be challenged by music and are interested in high originality but what I can't understand is why they don't want to listen to wonderful melodic music because to me that's my love for music.
Which gets me back on the "gap": In the end we are all a big PROGARCHIVES-family and the least we can do is keep respecting each other and each's preferences. Although there's nothing wrong with a good discussion every once in a while ! ------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 05:31
That's hit the nail on the head - Neo and the more eclectic or avante-garde forms of Prog are opposite ends of the same spectrum, and what unites them is every shade of Prog in between. There's no gap really, unless your personal criteria for Prog means that only the most complicated rock music imaginable fits the description.
Personally, I'm all for variety - I don't think that Prog has to be a certain way - indeed, I think that one of the defining factors of Prog is that it is not a certain way - although it obviously fits an overall, broad definition.
Part of that definition includes original approaches to melody - and there are few forms of Prog that are as original with melody as Neo Prog. You just need to get over the surface simplicity - which can be very deceptive. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Jared
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 05:51
that's a wonderfully worded and balanced post, Henk... ------------- Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson |
Posted By: RaphaelT
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 12:43
prefix neo- in musicology means "following" which is translated as "secondary", like neoclassics or neoromanticism. Sad things is that people who possess such great open-minded, that it suffices to love RIO or Zeuhl tend to base on first impressions like name of style or similarities to the giants of 70s.
Of course it is natural that when you discover Magma you start to consider Pink Floyd, Yes or King Crimson as "mediocre pop bands". However, imo, the purpose of the art is to express yourself, having something important to say, whereas the means are secondary. It is harder to express a thought, an impression using the methods of already formed style, because most solutions have already been discovered. ------------- yet you still have time! |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 12:44
No. I've started the thread with my personal issues (derived from the facts most people already mentioned before on other topics) with neo prog, I never wanted to bash the genre, and I said that maybe I was just needing a couple of listens or just more information about the genre, and finally I've come to the conclusion that it's totally incorrect to consider neo prog an inferior or a non-prog genre. I still feel that is not my prefered style, but now I can enjoy some very good albums without prejudices, cleared thanks to your convincing comments here  I must add that I'm totally agree with you about the illogical behavior of some people here, denigrating neo prog while claiming Blind Guardian, Metallica, Steely Dan and David Bowie. Come on guys, there's plenty of real prog bands everywhere, to request including pseudo attempts of prog acts. IMO Sometime we love the idea of seeing here our loved non-prog bands, and excluding our hated real prog bands (I would like to delete ELP and TFK from the archives but it doesn't make think they're not progressive, and I would like to see Alice In Chains here because I love them, but I know they're not prog even a little bit, so I'll have to resign  )So, I think some of us should be more fair with the Neo prog and Metal genres. BTW, the Logan recommendation, Marc Ceccotti, is just GREAT  . Thanks a lot for this, I'll try to find some material here. I knew a little bit about Edhels, but his solo work seems to be nicer. More bands in this line?? ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 13:56
I'm sure many others feel the way you do, BaldFriede. Interestingly, though, when others have replied negatively about their initial experiences of music you champion, you've rightly encouraged them to explore further. Would you be open to further exploration of the wonderful world of neo-prog? I should add that disliking a genre does not affect what it is. Even if we were to reach a consensus that neo-prog was boring as hell, repeating formulas that were outdated in the late 70s, that in no way lessens its status as a progressive sub-genre. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 14:18
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I think we should respect Neo Prog for what it is: it kept the flame alight after punk almost near destroyed it. Think where we'd be without the neo-prog scene. I don't we'd have half as many fans, there probably wouldn't be a modern prog era near as big as today's and plus it also broadened the whole prog genre to new limits. Now there's even more to explore!
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Thandrus
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 15:07
| Well personally, I think that doing Neo in 80's requiered much more courage than doing Sympho during 70s... I think, when listening to Neo one should look for beauty, and not count how many signature changes are in a song. Every subgenre here has different things to offer, as well es some things they lack. In the case of Neo - it is compexity (only relatively though), in case of RIO - melodicity, in case of Prog Electronic - tight composition. So we can see, every subgenre could have it's pretty big army of bashers. So why dislike any subgenre for what they don't have and not to like any for what they do have? As for me I think I have pretty flexible taste, enjoying almost every Prog band here more or less, from Neo to RIO. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 15:10
Bowie made at least three full blown prog albums, "Low", "Heroes" and, most of all, "Lodger". His inclusion is by far not as illogical as you claim it is. And, just to make it clear, I am definitely NOT a fan of Bowie and his music. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 15:21
No, it's not natural, YOU ARE CREATING A NEW PREJUDICE
, I found Magma a lot of time ago and I hate their music, I don't like a single note of what they did, I find it as horrendous cacophony. But I wouldn't dare to say it's inferior Prog or is just weird music with no trace of progressiveness, because it would be absurd, I can simply say I don't like them.
Magma is just different than Pink Floyd, Yes or King Crimson, all of them part of the Progressive Rock genre with equal merits, it's only better or worst depending on the SUBJECTIVE taste of the listener.
Bald Friedre will like Magma, I will like Yes and Pink Floyd, none of US will be wrong, we are only different persons with different perception of beauty.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 15:23
Explanations please....
When I discovered Magma I actually thought "thank God some other bands like Pink Floyd or Yes still believe in melody and themes"... ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 15:27
-------------
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 15:54
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*Magma fanboy sees mention of Magma, and enters quasi-Magmatizer mode* It's very true about different perceptions of beauty, as I find such beauty in Magma's music. Of course, there is much contrast in the music. I just happen to have K.A. II on now, and it really moves me. Magma can be quite sublime to these ears. I had a great conversation with James, I think it was (or was it Blowie?), about listening to music that others find abbhorent and chaotic, whereas for us it's easy-listening and beautiful. For me it is that contrast that accentuates Magma's beauty all the more. I really love Magma, and the more albums I got, the deeper my appreciation became. Like it or not, I still feel every well-rounded progger should know "Theusz Hamtaahk" (the Retrospectiw I version) particularly -- at least I wish they did. I'm sure I feel the same way about Magma as many do about Neo-Prog bands -- it really moves me, delights me, and intrigues me. It can be a spiritual experience. |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 15:55
Well, not really a new prejudice  for what I've read this isn't new. Mmm too bad.I must say this wasn't my experience. I've started listening Yes, Pink Floyd and Genesis. After a while I was listening RIO and Eclectic prog, but, when I listen to my firsts albums of Floyd (Animals, I love it ) and Genesis, I feel like coming back home. I can't stop loving the albums that bring me into prog.------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 16:37
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 20:46
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No.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: splyu
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 21:28
No indeed. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 23:06
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prefix neo- in musicology means "following" which is translated as "secondary", like neoclassics or neoromanticism. Sad things is that people who possess such great open-minded, that it suffices to love RIO or Zeuhl tend to base on first impressions like name of style or similarities to the giants of 70s. . Honestly Raphael, I studied music in the university and took piano and music lessons for five years, and Neo has never been referred toi secondary. As a fact, my mother is an antique dealer and a concertist, and after asking her, the term Neo has never been used as secondary. Neo means NEW, just that, and in musical terminology is more identified with revival, for example Neo Classicism means Classic Revival, not Secondary or less that Classical. If you want more information, you can use the dictionary:
neo- Definition neo- (nē′ō, -ə) 1. new, recent, latest Neolithic, Neozoic 2. in a new, different, or modified way neologism 3. the http://www.yourdictionary.com/neo-prefix - http://www.yourdictionary.com/neo-prefix If you want a musical description, you can also check:_
Neo-classicism. Term applied to 20th-cent. mus. trend which developed in the 1920s, when several composers wrote works in 17th- and 18th-cent. forms and styles as a reaction against the excessive orchestration of the late 19th-cent. romantics. Prokofiev's Classical Symphony (1916–17) and R. Strauss's Ariadne auf As far as I see, there's no relation with secondary, and I don't believe Prokoviev or Stravinsky are secondary to anybody. Better check out what the terms mean before using them. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 23:52
Having said that, I reviewed the Neo-Progressive category and the only one that I featured that I know very well is Marillion. I've got a fairly good selection of their output and I like it. There's so much out there in the prog music world that you can always spend time enjoying what you like and ignoring what you don't. I'm getting a feeling of deja-vu, I probably have already said something to this effect in another thread. I'm getting a feeling of deja-vu, I probably have already said something to this effect in another thread. I'm getting a feeling of deja-vu, I probably have already said something to this effect in another thread. I'm getting a feeling of deja-vu, I probably have already said something to this effect in another thread. And indeed, neo means new. Now the interesting question is how long exactly does neo remain new? Or niii for that matter? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 01:05
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Well, as a newcomer in the collab zone - I have my thoughts on these subjects. Personally I enjoy music from all over the musical spectrum; I have artists listed in RIO/Avant as well as in Neo as some of my favorites; and also enjoy music that - although progressive - would never have a place on this site due to not fitting with the criterias listed here. As I see it, music coined as prog or progressive is music more complex when measured against mainstream music. It can be the minimalistic tendencies we can find in some krautrock, the emphasis on certain moods mixed with multiple melody layers or complex structured songs as in space, neo and symphonic, or the more far out experimentations in what is dubbed RIO/Avant in here. And lots more - I'm not going into the finder details here... It's music that under normal circumstances won't appeal to the average music consumer; music which takes some kind of effort to comprehend, understand and enjoy. At minimum concentrated listening. Some people, perhaps more in prog circles than in other places, see their favorite genres as holy grails; precious to them and held forth as the greatest invention since the wheel and superior to everything else. A human trait I guess, and some RIO-fans are more human than the rest of us in that respect ;-) Neo is a genre that have always been bashed. This started with the music critics in the early 80's; who despised progressive music out of principle. They established a tradition that bashing progressive music in general and neo in particular was a ok; and the people bashing neo in here follows their lead - further making it an acceptable practice to bash progressive music in general. It's completely acceptable to not like neo (or symphonic, fusion or whatever) because the music doesn't appeal or because you can't grasp it. We're humans, and few of us have a musical taste covering everything. But when one tries to argue that one or more specific styles of music is less worthy than others you're treading deep waters indeed. For anyone trying to deride neo - since that is the topic here - my challenge is: Make something better in that genre yourself. Try to compose, play and produce a song in this genre that surpasses or equals what is out there. I don't think too many could take the challenge on, and those who do (any takers?) might learn a lesson or two while doing so. Personally I find much of the so-called RIO movment boring, and I think that when it comes to copying other artists fans of this genre might take a look in their own glasshouse before throwing stones at others. The sounds produced may be different, but the approach taken by many of these artists seems to be highly similar. Nothing wrong with that of course, but this genre may not be as innovative and groundbreaking as it's most diehard fanboys and -girls seems to think ;-) And the more recent innovators stay as unrecognized in this genre as in others. How many of the RIO/Avant fans in here have checked out artists like Robin Taylor or Scared Bunny for instance? As for Neo bands, I'm still quite unsure as to what constitutes a band being Neo compares to symphonic and vice versa. And the dividing line between Neo and Crossover is another twilight zone in many respects too. As for under the radar releases in the Neo genre, I'd point towards now defunct Swiss band Shakary, and their release Shakary 2006, as a good, recent and enjoyable release in this genre. It's not original, but it's certainly enjoyable - and the music has been made with quite a lot of skill. If it sounds too simplistic - try replicating it. You might get a surprise when trying to do just that ;-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 04:46
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Just to make it clear: I do like Yes and Pink Floyd (at least the early Pink Floyd; they lose somewhat after "Wish You Were Here"). However, I do get bored if I have to listen to harmonic music for too long, so I need a change from time to time. And I definitely prefer those bands and artists who know how to mix the harmonic and the dissonant in their music. Which is why for example "Pawn Hearts" definitely is one of my favourite albums of all time. And which is why "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" is my favourite album of them. But Neo-Prog has some elements I am not too fond of (the reedy keyboards, for example). And it can't help the feeling that I have heard it all before when listening to it. The production of the neo-prog albums I have heard added a lot to my dislike too.. Early Marillion had something I could agree with, especially "Fugazi", although that album reminded me ogf Genesis a lot. But they went down the hill with their third studio album, and the replacement of Fish with Hogarth made them completely unlistenable for me. Fish's voice had character, Hogarth is just another crooner. But that's only my opinion, of course. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: victor77
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 07:55
I don´t really agree with it. Eskaton or Runaway Totem aren´t, in my opinion, examples of inventiveness on the zeuhl genre.
I would suggest some records apart from the common bands of the genre, according to the site list
Clepsydra - Fears
Deyss - Visions in the Dark
Fruitcake - Room for Surprise
Gerard - Live in Marseille
Quidam - Quidam
Prog rock didn not die in the 80´s, it just changed
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Posted By: poslednijat_colobar
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 07:58
| I don't like neoprog.This is not my type of subgenre.The sound is not clear enough and the music is strange.I prefer more classic sound! |
Posted By: Windhawk
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 08:15
Indeed - when used in the right way, dissonances and disharmonies can enrich a song substantially. Same goes for minimalistic patterns, and intermixed/interweaved multiple sound layers (as a non-musician, please excuse my layman terms here).
Of course, what "the right way" is is a highly personal opinion - one of my most recent favorite examples of most of the elements above is a tune by Russian guitarist Jake Pashkin; although the musical style he pursues in general probably won't be too interesting to most people reading this thread ;-) ------------- Websites I work with: http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/ |
Posted By: splyu
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 09:21
That's a, shall I say, interesting way to put it. I, too, prefer the "classic sound", but the way I percieve things, the sound tends to be clearer and the music not strange enough in neoprog!  |
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 12:31
I believe you just bit on a little bit of sarcasm. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:01
Well, I think stonebeard is just kidding... (I suppose  )It's strange, because I feel that Eskaton is one of the most refreshing offerings in the Zeuhl fields. It's much more accesible than most of the Zeuhl bands I know. Along with Pseu and Eider Stellaire are my fav 80s zeuhl bands. ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:08
Yes, completely agree, I think he's OK as a prog related artist, my point is that some people confuse their appealing with his music, and fall in the implication that Bowie (i.e.) is more progressive even than some neo prog or prog metal bands. That's not fair, I think. ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:12
Bowie is one of my favorite artists, however, I've only viewed him as being on the fringes of prog, and certainly do not consider him as prog as IQ, Marillion, Twelfth Night, Dream Theater, etc. But his inclusion in PR is logical because of the three albums Friede mentioned and because I think a lot of his music was on the fringes of prog. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:24
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What would the slippermen say ?
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:52
It goes back to what was being discussed on the first page of the thread. A progressive artist/band need not be Prog, and a Prog artist need not be progressive, it also does depend on what is meant by progressive (one is a noun for fairly loose genre classification, and to describe a movement, the other describing advancement, and linked to innovation). Some say that Neo-Prog is not very innovative, and did not advance Prog music much (which might be thought of as breaking rock conventions). I don't think of Bowie as Prog (I think he could be described that way regarding output), but I do think of him as a progressive artist (I won't comment on whether I think he advanced music more, or was more innovative, than, say, Marillion). Personally, I am confident that Bowie was more progressive (adjective) than many Neo-Prog, Prog-Metal bands, as well as a great many from other categories, but that doesn't make him more Prog. EDIT: This is coming from a guy who would like to see more innovative artists in the archives. Heck, I want a category for progressive non-rock artists that were very influential to bands/ artists in the archives, and that have a relation to categories here (Coltrane being my particular interest, but also people like Stockhausen and Glass -- problem is, where does it end, and where does it begin temporally?) It's hard to argue that Coltrane is not a progressive artist, but that doesn't make him Prog (Progressive Rock). Apologies for any digressions *zips mouth*  EDIT agian *unzips, astonishment ensues*
Glad you like it, his earlier work is more in the Neo-Prog vein. The myspace is his latest album. His latest album sounds very good to these ears, and quite experimental (like the jazz fusion and spacey electronic qualities). For people who might have missed it: http://www.myspace.com/marcceccotti - http://www.myspace.com http://www.myspace.com/marcceccotti - /marcceccotti 
2008 ../album.asp?id=19662 - Sometimes Around Saturn not rated |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 14:42
"Yo, wassup, you need slippers?" Something to that effect anyway. Don't mind me, it's 4:42am right now:P ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 15:38
Not only that, but aren't you upside down?  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: victor77
Date Posted: September 30 2008 at 16:21
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[/QUOTE]
It's strange, because I feel that Eskaton is one of the most refreshing offerings in the Zeuhl fields. It's much more accesible than most of the Zeuhl bands I know. Along with Pseu and Eider Stellaire are my fav 80s zeuhl bands.
[/QUOTE] I listened to Eskatons´ 4 Visions and Ardeur, and although I don´t deny the quality of both, the musical project is, in my opinion, just a small copy of Magma´s orchestral works, but in shorter format. And the music is very well played, and it can be a good point to start for non initiated on the genre, but I don´t think they´re the peak of creativity. Pseu, Shub Niggurath or Ruins are far more creative, but a little more difficult to get into. And something similar could be said about many japanese zeuhlish bands
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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: October 02 2008 at 15:14
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I'm a little late to this discussion.......... I like a couple bands in the Neo Prog category. Most I don't like. What don't I like about Neo Prog? Hmm.........let's see............um, it doesn't appeal to my taste in music. How's that? I think this thread should be a lot shorter |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 02 2008 at 16:03
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Geez, it's hard to dance with the ugliest (Not that Neo is the ugliest). because:
But, lets keep fighting. Iván -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: October 02 2008 at 16:47
No, I was being serious. Let me rephrase. Avant-prog and zeuhl are the only genres that are typically capable of progressing anything. You're all living delusions. Thinking about the kinds of bands we have on this site, then thinking about popular/rock music as a whole, I think it is very silly if not plain ignorant to call 99% of the music on this site progressive. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Silver Sable
Date Posted: October 02 2008 at 17:14
Ohh dear... all these labels make my head hurt. 
I'll listen to just about anything and give it a shot. If I like it, I like it. If not, I don't. I hate being labeled.
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: October 02 2008 at 17:19
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Being an archiving site, the labels are a necessary evil. But, they do help at least a little in discovering new bands of a similar ilk to bands that you know and love. It's certainly not foolproof but it is much better than just listing all of the bands as prog and saying "have at it". ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 02 2008 at 18:12
But you tag from your first post, you said you like a female JAZZ singer once and then, Jazz is a tag........Why don't say I like a female singer? Probably because most people would think in Madonna or Britney instead of a good Jazz singer.
The you say you like some METAL (also a tag), if you said I like some bands, most people would think in N'Sync or whoever is in the USA radios today instead of "Devin Townsend, Nevermore, Iced Earth/Demons & Wizards, Dan Swano/Nightingale, Ayreon, Emperor, Dark Tranquillity, Soilwork, and various others."
We need the sub-genres to understand the variety and richness of Prog, and believe me, we are not the inventors of sub-genres, every Prog site in the net mentions sub-genres (before PA was even created), so we can't deny what already exists. Imagine how confusing would be the world if somebody asked you what do you listen and you replied....MUSIC, I wouldn't like that, I love many genres I listen Classical, Rock, Jazz, some POP, but I don't like Rap or Hip Hop, if tags didn't existed, all would be in the same sack. In the same way I love Symphonic, Neo Prog, Prog Folk, I can tell you, we are about the most conservative, I seen sites with more than 100 sub-genres. So, don’t get angry with tags, the are necessary. Iván BTW: Welcome to the site, I’m also a lawyer as you. -------------
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Posted By: AlexUC
Date Posted: October 02 2008 at 19:03
Well, now I see It depends. If you take the word in the purest meaning, I think you're right. However, the meaning of the word has not been taken as literally as you cite (I mean, by the prog community). Take a look at the definition:
http://www.answers.com/library/Dictionary-cid-65107 - - Dictionary:
adj.progressive(prə-grĕs'ĭv)
Antonyms: conservative, moderate As you could see, under this definition, only 1% percent of the bands archived here are progressive. For example, a band like The Flower Kings would not be progressive (see the antonyms), opposite as we all know, and most of the conservative neo prog and prog metal bands would not be progressive. Incorrect as you can see. When you apply the term to rock it changes the meaning a little bit. However, all of this is completely relative, you can take the meaning of the word as you want (the commonly accepted or the pure one). If you think TFK is not progressive, nobody has a valid argument to beat that, so, I'm wasting my time saying all of this ------------- This is not my beautiful house... |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: October 02 2008 at 19:09
so by that defonition then a punk band who votes progressive party is prog ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 02 2008 at 19:14
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The simplest definition possible:
Has no relation with the adjective progressive or the concept of evolution presented by another member.
Iván -------------
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