Elton John/Phil Collins Riddle

Heraclea wrote: As to why they did take the commercial part: well, they had grown older. They had families to support. Money makes the world go round. It went the way it did, and there's no point in sitting here and being a bitter fan of early Genesis and hating certain members because of some strange paranoic idea of an pop-conspiration. Be glad for the old albums instead.

Exactly. If Genesis was still making Foxtrot or Selling England type music in 2005, we'd be complaining that is all sounded the same.

I like all the Genesis from Trespass through Invisible Touch. There's a lot of variability in that span, some good, some not so good, but all Genesis. As long as Tony Banks & Mike Rutherford were listed as members, noone can deny that it was a Genesis album, or claim that it was a Phil Collings album

Sean Trane wrote: I would not call Elton John prog. Madman Across the Water is correct but still song based . Even if there is a conceptual link , they are very much standart verse-chorus-verse-chorus-ten secondsolo-verse-chorus. Madman ATW is one of my fave next to GBYBRoad and as for songs Funeral Friend is the closest he came to prog.

That is the root of the issue. Elton in NOT PROG. The only think on Madman that you could concievable call prog is the title cut. The album spawned huge hits with Levon & Tiny Dancer - both pure pop. What makes Madman even approach prog is the wonderful string arrangement provided by Paul buckmaster.

The best songs on the ablum are the last two; All The Nasties & Goodbye.

Elton is NOT prog!

Arsillus wrote: Peter Gabriel said he wouldn't have hired Phil Collins if he would have known Phil was so good. But back to the question, I view John and Collins differently. I know we call it "progressive" music for a reason- it progresses. But just because a band "progresses," doesn't mean it's better. Phil Collins wrecked probably one of the coolest bands ever. I don't think Elton John ever was really a "prog" artist as we might consider him here. He may have progressed music, but wasn't "progressive rock/music." So I think Phil Collins is a traitor.

Now...wait there just a minute.  Genesis, at that time, was made up of THREE people, all of whom shared the songwriting credits.  Before we point a finger at Phil, we should also "tsk-tsk" Banks and Rutherford.  I thought that was Banks' band, originally. WAsn't it?

FuzzyDude wrote: Pop god and master pianist Elton John made a progressive rock album in the seventies and it was quite a successful one. I assume you have all heard of the much beloved 'Madman on the Water'? He also auditioned to become lead vocalist/keyboardist for King Crimson and Gentle Giant shortly before attempting his 'solo' career. (He met lyricist and partner Bernie Taupin while they were both auditioning for King Crimson. Imagine Robert Fripp performing 'Rocket Man'.) Phil Collins is another famous example of prog-turned-pop. He was at one time one of the most respected drummers in the art rock world and then slowly became one of pop's most familiar voices. He turned Genesis from a clever and revolutionary art group into a massive 80s hit machine. And then there's the solo career... The main question is this. If someone has a very respected background in progressive rock and then suddenly changes his 'methodology' to pop music... what are we to think of them?

I like to think they wanted more money and fame. Popsters always made money and got all the glory. But have we ever seen 'Yes' perform on Good Morning America? Heeeellllllllllll, no!

Snow Dog wrote: Its not a theory, he said so himsellf

Interesting. Did he reveal who his masters were?

Snow Dog wrote: I'll say it again...Collins never liked Prog  ever! He didn't enjoy early genesis material at all and as soon as he started to be a major influence on Genesis music the happier he was!

So you feel he wasn't a traitor, but in fact a double agent sent in by outside forces? Interesting theory.

I would not call Elton John prog. Madman Across the Water is correct but still song based . Even if there is a conceptual link , they are very much standart verse-chorus-verse-chorus-ten secondsolo-verse-chorus. Madman ATW is one of my fave next to GBYBRoad and as for songs Funeral Friend is the closest he came to prog.

A classic entertainer that made good albums until Captain Fantastic And the Dirt brown Cow boy.

I do not think that Collins was set out to conquer the world at first . Duke propelled him to fame with the turn It On Again single. He was probably the most surprised when his first solo shot through the roof. Face Value has plenty of very personal song , although not really to my liking. Abacab only confirmed the public's interest in him and from the second album , you on , then you can feel his wish to write mega-hits. I said in another thread , that it is unfair to blame Collins for Genesis's evolution. Nothing could go on without Tony Banks.

Funnily enough , only Banks never had a mega hit among the members of classic Genesis. Rutherford had hits with The Mechanics. Gabriel and Collins , I do not think anyone needs reminding. Hackett had a mega seller in the 80's as one of his track was chosen for a British TV programme (and royalties abounded) but I completely forgot which one. if anybody can help on this one.

Man Erg wrote: Beau Heem wrote: I think the true Elton was abducted by aliens after "Catain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy"... I mean, think of it... His next album (titled Reg Strikes Back) is from a different planet... -Beau I thought that the next album after Capt Fantastic was Rock of the Westies.

Well considering Elton John was abducted by aliens, how could he have made Rock of the westies. Maybe he didn't return ontill 1988. and all albums between that period where made by and Alien lool-alike

alchemist wrote: As for Elton John, he wouldn't be given the title of Sir for no reason, he is a very important figure who has done great things and has influenced modern music a lot so don't call them traitors.

I dont' think he's a traitor. Only Phil Collins is a traitor. Dare I say I enjoy some Sir Elton John? His solo stuff is A LOT better than anything Collins did.