Pop god and master pianist Elton John made a progressive rock album in the seventies and it was quite a successful one. I assume you have all heard of the much beloved 'Madman on the Water'? He also auditioned to become lead vocalist/keyboardist for King Crimson and Gentle Giant shortly before attempting his 'solo' career. (He met lyricist and partner Bernie Taupin while they were both auditioning for King Crimson. Imagine Robert Fripp performing 'Rocket Man'.)

Phil Collins is another famous example of prog-turned-pop. He was at one time one of the most respected drummers in the art rock world and then slowly became one of pop's most familiar voices. He turned Genesis from a clever and revolutionary art group into a massive 80s hit machine. And then there's the solo career...

The main question is this. If someone has a very respected background in progressive rock and then suddenly changes his 'methodology' to pop music... what are we to think of them?

I think that we are to think that what they do is they are trying to differ their sound repetoir or 'progress' musically. I for one think Elton had a great career, spanning multiple genres of music. You forgot to mention another quasi-progressive effort he made, the masterpiece "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road".

But with Genesis (and the solo career), Phil Collins did the opposite thing. Their music progressed from being complicated and difficult material to simple 4/4 pop songs (although he kept some note of their progressiveness with songs like Domino and Fading Lights).

Peter Gabriel said he wouldn't have hired Phil Collins if he would have known Phil was so good.

But back to the question, I view John and Collins differently. I know we call it "progressive" music for a reason- it progresses. But just because a band "progresses," doesn't mean it's better. Phil Collins wrecked probably one of the coolest bands ever. I don't think Elton John ever was really a "prog" artist as we might consider him here. He may have progressed music, but wasn't "progressive rock/music." So I think Phil Collins is a traitor.

I see Elton John mre related with Billy Joel.

1. Both are pianists
2. Both have classical formation
3. Elton John recorded a Prog Record (Not sure about that though)
4. Billy Joel started playing in two prog bands (Attila and Hassles)
5. Both ended as Pop icons

Phil Collins by his side was a great drummer, but he was formed in Pop, Motown and Jazz more than classical or Progressive, so he returned to his roots after he gained control of Genesis

Iván

I would add another name, albeit one that doesn't really belong in the prog realm: Stevie Wonder.

Like Elton and Collins, the 70s were full of genius albums and amazingly inventive songs- and once the 80s started, you can pretty much write off the rest. Unless there's someone out there who thinks that "I Just Called to Say I Love You" is every bit as good as anything from "Innervisions" or "Songs in the Key of Life".

I could say the same about Clapton, except that he started his downfall a few years earlier than the rest...I can't stand much of his output after Derek and the Dominoes.

Prog_Bassist wrote: I just say they were trying to make a living.

I'd say they were already making a perfectly good living from what they were doing, but wanted to make even more. Collins wanted not just success, but actual chart domination and complete sell out. He is very much on the business side of things rather than the creative. Its a shame, but I wouldn't have anyone else drumming on all those brilliant Genesis albums.

Velvetclown wrote: Bring me my Blacksword and true understanding

Wow someone who likes 'Broadsword & the Beast'!! Well, I assume you like it..??

A wonderful album, full of quirky Blacksword lunchtime wisdom

Swinton MCR wrote: Can't forgive Elton for the truly puke-inducing Diana Funeral tribute - Don't like his pop material and haven't heard this so-called prog-album - has it got a 20 minute epic full of wizzard synth solos......

I know exactly what you mean!

You could have been forgiven for thinking that 'Candle in the wind' record was a spoof, the sort of thing that comedian/satirist Chris Morris would have bluffed on 'The Day Today' or 'Brass Eye'

I've little time for Elton John. There's been a few worthwhile songs over the years, but generally I asscociate him with 'the establishment' He is a friend of the ruling classes. He is pompous, out of touch, pretentious and has a lousy lazy voice. He is the establishments idea of a 'nice' 'acceptable' homosexual; someone who works hard to send himself up, wears pantomime frocks and tiaras and spends £00000 of flowers. Frankly I think he's a d!ck.

I better stop there...

alchemist wrote: As for Elton John, he wouldn't be given the title of Sir for no reason, he is a very important figure who has done great things and has influenced modern music a lot so don't call them traitors.

I dont' think he's a traitor. Only Phil Collins is a traitor. Dare I say I enjoy some Sir Elton John? His solo stuff is A LOT better than anything Collins did.

Man Erg wrote: Beau Heem wrote: I think the true Elton was abducted by aliens after "Catain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy"... I mean, think of it... His next album (titled Reg Strikes Back) is from a different planet... -Beau I thought that the next album after Capt Fantastic was Rock of the Westies.

Well considering Elton John was abducted by aliens, how could he have made Rock of the westies. Maybe he didn't return ontill 1988. and all albums between that period where made by and Alien lool-alike

I would not call Elton John prog. Madman Across the Water is correct but still song based . Even if there is a conceptual link , they are very much standart verse-chorus-verse-chorus-ten secondsolo-verse-chorus. Madman ATW is one of my fave next to GBYBRoad and as for songs Funeral Friend is the closest he came to prog.

A classic entertainer that made good albums until Captain Fantastic And the Dirt brown Cow boy.

I do not think that Collins was set out to conquer the world at first . Duke propelled him to fame with the turn It On Again single. He was probably the most surprised when his first solo shot through the roof. Face Value has plenty of very personal song , although not really to my liking. Abacab only confirmed the public's interest in him and from the second album , you on , then you can feel his wish to write mega-hits. I said in another thread , that it is unfair to blame Collins for Genesis's evolution. Nothing could go on without Tony Banks.

Funnily enough , only Banks never had a mega hit among the members of classic Genesis. Rutherford had hits with The Mechanics. Gabriel and Collins , I do not think anyone needs reminding. Hackett had a mega seller in the 80's as one of his track was chosen for a British TV programme (and royalties abounded) but I completely forgot which one. if anybody can help on this one.

Snow Dog wrote: I'll say it again...Collins never liked Prog  ever! He didn't enjoy early genesis material at all and as soon as he started to be a major influence on Genesis music the happier he was!

So you feel he wasn't a traitor, but in fact a double agent sent in by outside forces? Interesting theory.

Snow Dog wrote: Its not a theory, he said so himsellf

Interesting. Did he reveal who his masters were?

FuzzyDude wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Its not a theory, he said so himsellf Interesting. Did he reveal who his masters were?

Forget it!

FuzzyDude wrote: Pop god and master pianist Elton John made a progressive rock album in the seventies and it was quite a successful one. I assume you have all heard of the much beloved 'Madman on the Water'? He also auditioned to become lead vocalist/keyboardist for King Crimson and Gentle Giant shortly before attempting his 'solo' career. (He met lyricist and partner Bernie Taupin while they were both auditioning for King Crimson. Imagine Robert Fripp performing 'Rocket Man'.) Phil Collins is another famous example of prog-turned-pop. He was at one time one of the most respected drummers in the art rock world and then slowly became one of pop's most familiar voices. He turned Genesis from a clever and revolutionary art group into a massive 80s hit machine. And then there's the solo career... The main question is this. If someone has a very respected background in progressive rock and then suddenly changes his 'methodology' to pop music... what are we to think of them?

I like to think they wanted more money and fame. Popsters always made money and got all the glory. But have we ever seen 'Yes' perform on Good Morning America? Heeeellllllllllll, no!

Arsillus wrote: Peter Gabriel said he wouldn't have hired Phil Collins if he would have known Phil was so good. But back to the question, I view John and Collins differently. I know we call it "progressive" music for a reason- it progresses. But just because a band "progresses," doesn't mean it's better. Phil Collins wrecked probably one of the coolest bands ever. I don't think Elton John ever was really a "prog" artist as we might consider him here. He may have progressed music, but wasn't "progressive rock/music." So I think Phil Collins is a traitor.

Now...wait there just a minute.  Genesis, at that time, was made up of THREE people, all of whom shared the songwriting credits.  Before we point a finger at Phil, we should also "tsk-tsk" Banks and Rutherford.  I thought that was Banks' band, originally. WAsn't it?

^ Yes it was Tony's band, and both he and Gabriel were big soul/Motown fans (as well as classical) Phil Collins loved soul & Jazz and the R'n'B influence that Chester Thompson & Daryl Steurmer brought to the band later on, manifested itself on 'ATTWT' and 'Duke' The fusion aspect of Genesis was fine, it was when the 'pop' element became dominant that they collapsed creativly.

And, you're right. It's wrong to blame Phil for their sell out. He may have been a catalyst for what happened, but it wasn't his band to force changes upon.

Sean Trane wrote: I would not call Elton John prog. Madman Across the Water is correct but still song based . Even if there is a conceptual link , they are very much standart verse-chorus-verse-chorus-ten secondsolo-verse-chorus. Madman ATW is one of my fave next to GBYBRoad and as for songs Funeral Friend is the closest he came to prog.

That is the root of the issue. Elton in NOT PROG. The only think on Madman that you could concievable call prog is the title cut. The album spawned huge hits with Levon & Tiny Dancer - both pure pop. What makes Madman even approach prog is the wonderful string arrangement provided by Paul buckmaster.

The best songs on the ablum are the last two; All The Nasties & Goodbye.

Elton is NOT prog!

Heraclea wrote: As to why they did take the commercial part: well, they had grown older. They had families to support. Money makes the world go round. It went the way it did, and there's no point in sitting here and being a bitter fan of early Genesis and hating certain members because of some strange paranoic idea of an pop-conspiration. Be glad for the old albums instead.

Exactly. If Genesis was still making Foxtrot or Selling England type music in 2005, we'd be complaining that is all sounded the same.

I like all the Genesis from Trespass through Invisible Touch. There's a lot of variability in that span, some good, some not so good, but all Genesis. As long as Tony Banks & Mike Rutherford were listed as members, noone can deny that it was a Genesis album, or claim that it was a Phil Collings album