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Retro Prog ? |
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siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15342 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: May 20 2024 at 14:16 |
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That's because RIO / Avant is a much more diverse category that has no limits. The very nature of neo-prog and its definition guarantee it will sound somewhat like the classic influences. That doesn't mean neo-prog can't be original and interesting. There are many primo examples. I don't know where you get your info but there are a lot of avant bands accused of sounding too much like Henry Cow, Univers Zero etc. In fact EVERY zeuhl band gets accused of practically being a Magma clone. The nature of avant is limitless therefore is allowed to spiral in many directions. Neo is governed by catchy melodies, certain synth moves and guitar similarities at least in part. Just the way it goes :) (function(){if (!document.body) return;var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'886efb3b9e9ccea4',t:'MTcxNjIzNTk0NC4zNjkwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37228 |
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Loads of good retro imo influenced by many styles of music. It's only "bad retro" if it's Symphonic, one might say.
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AFlowerKingCrimson ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18928 |
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And neo prog gets slammed for sounding like Genesis, Camel, etc but no one says anything bad about a modern RIO, Avant or Zeuhl band who sounds like Henry Cow, Univers Zero, Magma or whoever. You're right it's very hypocritical.
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37228 |
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Dungen (in Psych/Space at PA) and Electric Orange (n Krautrock at PA) are a couple of my retro favourites, and Pram in Post/Math at PA as well as those with a faux backstory as if they came from the past, Kosmicher Laufer (electronic included in Krautrock) and Klaus Morlock (included in progressive electronic). I was not familiar with the "it's only retro if its symphonic" notion. There's lot of great for my tastes music that drawn on old/classic psych. Krautrock, Canterbury sounds, folk, things like loungey music, tropica, exotica.... I love the Neo-Psychedelia side of retro etc. and would think that while it is not as associated with Prog that it would be bigger than the Neo-Symph retro ones. Krautrock and progressive electronic is a big influence on much music of the past 30 years with retro qualities. I find drawing on past styles can lead to really exciting music, but then alot of the retro bands inspire other retro bands who them are accused of being derivative of older retro music (instead of the earlier influences).
Some tracks I like from some I listed. |
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Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37228 |
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Retro is not a pejorative to me. I tend to think of Symphonic Prog as particularly quintessential Prog, so that which is inspired by Symphonic would be more likely to be called Retro Prog. One thing I've seen is to consider music especially from the 90s up that not only emulates/evokes Prog music of the 60s and 70s, but also uses the instruments (or reasonable facsimiles). The mellotron is an instrument especially associated with Prog. I know and love lots of music that is inspired by and/or emulates classic psych, classic Krautrock, classic Progressive Electronic, classic Zeuhl stylings, classic Prog Folk, and classic Canterbury Scene music. And King Crimson has inspired retro quality albums, such as Anekdoten's Vermod (mind KC had Symph qualities).
Here is Hypnos 69's Ominous with an obvious KC influence, and I really dig it. Since a lot of styles under the Prog umbrella are not as associated with classic Prog genetrally as those under Symph, or as popular, I think it's expected for Symph to get more flak and be associated more with classic Prog that a lot of other styles. Classic Krautrock inspired lost of my favourite 90s up albums, but I believe Krautrock is not as associated with Prog as Symphonic Rock. |
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King Crimson776 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 12 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2779 |
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Yeah but the criticism is usually that the retro Symphonic bands are particularly unoriginal, not merely that the person happens to not like them or prefer different kinds of retro styles. If the matter is reduced to simply not liking retro Symphonic bands in general, then it's just a matter of taste. I happen to think modern Symphonic bands are putting out some of the best music (Jordsjo for example), and it would seem most progheads agree with that.
Edited by King Crimson776 - April 01 2024 at 03:33 |
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65602 |
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In other words when seen in a bad way it's only 'retro' if it's Symph, which is largely true. I recently pointed out some retro-ish Jazz fusion (which seems to be having a mild upswing) and I did indeed give a positive slant to that perspective, whereas if it'd sounded like Gabriel-era Genesis I probably wouldn't have cared much. |
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Hrychu ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5684 |
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richardh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 29438 |
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Yep indeed. Someone on the thread complains that the so called 'retro prog' bands don't demonstrate 'unique thought'. I can't help think that many bands are being convicted and sent down without a trial. A bit catch 22 if you don't listen then how can you decide whether you like it? I'm not talking about a few listens. Music is much more than just a bunch of sounds. It has to evoke something, anything, ie depression, joy whatever. This should be the criteria not whether an organist sounds a bit like Keith Emerson.
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 45661 |
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Oh, I didn't mean the term retro-prog was used back in the day. I also do not use it to classify music. Also 'retro prog" is not a music genre IMO. Just an adjective that give people a hint on what the music sounds like.
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progaardvark ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 52608 |
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I agree, but I don't think the term "retro prog" was used back then. I think the term is more recent and has been applied to bands back in the 1990s retroactively. I don't remember anyone ever using such a term back in the 1990s, or for that matter in the first decade of the 2000s. I haven't been able to find a source that can trace the origins of the term. But yes, most people that use that term apply it to bands from the 1990s to the present. The closest thing to a reliable resource I could find is the German Wikipedia article: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Prog Unfortunately, the article lacks any reference sources and has been flagged because it lacks these. The potatoes in this room fly around like little mini-helicopters.
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TheEliteExtremophile ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() ![]() Joined: August 23 2021 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 68 |
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I think a lot of it comes down to a few main factors: 1) There simply aren't that many bands aping Cardiacs' sound. Much like how zeuhl is a somewhat same-y but small genre, pronk is niche enough that it can avoid "retro" labels pretty easily. 2) Cardiacs were nowhere near as successful as the classic prog acts. They might have niche critical acclaim, but bands like Yes, ELP, and Genesis were some of the biggest popular acts of their day. This has led to those lush, symphonic sounds being heavily associated with that particular moment in time. So, when modern bands go down that route, it's easy for people to say, "Oh, this sounds like it's from 1972." 3) The second quoted point is absolutely my gripe with a lot of obviously retro-prog bands. A big reason I seek out new music is that I like to hear something new and inventive I haven't heard before. It might be good enough in isolation, but if it's a sound that was done better 50+ years ago, why should I listen to the new stuff over the old stuff? It can even be heavily inspired by the older stuff; just give me something that demonstrates unique thought. 4) I can't speak to jazz or punk, but I can speak a bit on metal. Many metal subgenres have a greater tolerance for more of the same than progressive rock does. It's simply a difference in the cultural ethos of those communities. Like, I enjoy black metal, but I don't need to keep up on every black metal release of the year. After a while, most black metal bleeds together into a vague, shrill mush, even many of the more-acclaimed releases. Ditto for doom, death, and extra-extra-extra ditto for stoner metal. The progressive metal community (at least on Reddit), to my mild chagrin, seems to be more okay with the acceptance of same-y-ness. Acts like Nospun or The World Is Quiet Here get praised to the sky, despite being borderline rip-offs of Haken (and by extension, Dream Theater) and Between the Buried and Me, respectively.(function(){if (!document.body) return;var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'86a8d3536c1c094c',t:'MTcxMTQ3Mzc3NC43MDMwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})(); < height="1" width="1" style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium; visibility: ;">
Edited by TheEliteExtremophile - March 26 2024 at 11:23 |
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siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15342 |
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^ that's mostly true but some newer bands that are inspired by King Crimson and Gentle Giant (as well as others) are considered "retro" as well. Also psychedelic bands like Astra that emulated Pink Floyd as considered "retro" as well. True though that avant-prog, neo-prog, etc aren't ever labeled as such. It seems "retro" only applies to bands copying 70s styles, not 80s bands like Cardiacs for example, I think retro prog gets some push back because of the fact the word "progressive" is supposed to mean pushing boundaries and exploring musical terrain thus unchartered. Those same standards really don't apply to jazz, metal, punk or other genres. Edited by siLLy puPPy - March 26 2024 at 07:48 |
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miamiscot ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 23 2014 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 3625 |
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It's only Retro if it's Symphonic.
This seems to be true and it is hypocritical to the Nth degree. No one slams a jazz artist for aping Miles...
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siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15342 |
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All good points. I don't look as the term "retro" as derogatory in the least. It simply refers to artists that use analog equipment and try to emulate a style that would've fit in to the classic prog era. As far as other genres of music, it seems the word revival is more common as in swing revival, post-punk revival, surf rock revival etc. But revival and retro aren't exactly synonymous of course as a repopularization of a style doesn't mean it has to sound authentically retro. I haven't heard the metal revival tag yet although there are clearly modern bands that try to emulate old school death metal, 80s heavy metal etc. Also "retro" doesn't mean clone. Wobbler is clearly retro in the fact it sounds like classic 70s prog but clearly is unique and although the Yes influences are obvious, doesn't sound like Yes. True that it shouldn't be a descriptor term for albums but it is a useful category for those who either want to explore these artists or in many cases NOT. (function(){if (!document.body) return;var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'86a739943b7167f5',t:'MTcxMTQ1Njk5MS40NjIwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
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mathman0806 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 06 2014 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6813 |
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Agree with both of the above. I think the term "retro" has been used to describe any music that has the same vibe as mudic from a previous era. I think I saw that in the 90s with Black Crowes.
It doesn't have to be negative, but some take it that way. It's individual taste I suppose. For a while, I was listening a lot to bands that had a retro 70s hard rock sound. At some point, it changes from saying "sounds like" to "retro". In another 10 years, we'll have bands sounding like Porcupine Tree that will be called retro 2000s prog. |
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 45661 |
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Great post. ![]() I guess the term has become a bit derogatory, although I've seen people use it in a positive connotation, just meaning an artist that tries to recreate 70s style music. I don't mind this at all, I have discovered bands I enjoyed a lot, some didn't do much for me. The "retro" style exists in other music genres as well, in rock and metal and even pop (synth pop seems to have made a comeback). The metal scene has witnessed the rise of traditional heavy metal bands, the scene has even got a name - NWOTHM, New Wave of Traditional Heavy Metal. ![]() The stoner rock and metal scene is 70s Black Sabbath worship and other late 60s & 70s blues-rock, heavy psyche and hard rock worship. I noticed there is an AOR/melodic hard rock revival in Sweden, don't know what's going on there. ![]() OSDM is a thing, "old school death metal", bands trying to sound like the early death metal/90s death metal. And I'm sure there's more. ![]() Edited by Cristi - March 26 2024 at 03:29 |
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richardh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 29438 |
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'Retro Prog' is such a loaded term and could alienate many artists. Why would we even want to consider the idea? It's totally snobbish and elitist nonsense. However seperating bands on the basis of style is perfectly sensible.
Neo Prog is the term that most prog bands don't like being called. However Logan offered a perfect description of what it is and I'm fine with that. There is no inherent put down in that term. Arguably all 'prog' is retro. That term was used and designed as a put down for the likes of ELP and Yes around the time of punk. 'Retro prog' is therefore digging the knife in ![]() If hypothetically 'Retro Prog' was a thing then it was definitely started by Par Lindh Project and the Scandi bands in the 90's. However they still had their own thing and put a lot more folk stylings and a bit of RIO into the mix to make it interesting. It was never a straight copy and it has never been a clone (another ridiculous and useless term that gets banded around) . We could just choose to grow up and listen to music for what it is but I don't hold out much hope on that!
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Cosmiclawnmower ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2010 Location: West Country,UK Status: Offline Points: 3950 |
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The Mighty Boosh Looking Backwards song - YouTube
''Elements of the past, elements of the future, combining to make something not quite as good as either''
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siLLy puPPy ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15342 |
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I wouldn't consider Starcastle retro prog either but the reason i could see it as legit is simply because it was copying a style of Yes after Yes gave up that sound. For the term retro to be valid, personally i would say you need a decade or two to elapse. So late 70s bands would be simply clone bands then. (function(){if (!document.body) return;var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'869f145cdee4cf4d',t:'MTcxMTM3MTU4MS4wMzkwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
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