Progosopher wrote: Over-categorization is a trap.

Totally. Like how far do you take it lol.

My thoughts exactly.

It's essentially infinite regress/categorical dissolution posing as organization.

Indeed.

And if we're honest 95% of the prog being produced today is "retro" to one extent or another, regardless of sub-genre. I mean even the notionally forward-looking sub-genres...how much of what is being done in RIO/avant sounds rather like bands that were "avant" in 1979, for example...?

what is music that sucks balls and whose only redeeming quality is it makes Celine Dion sound progressive...

while I agree a few bands immitating the sound of prog's glory days sound bland, too predictable, you are exaggerating. 

There are many bands that are quite enjoyable, fun to listen to. Just go and listen to the last Needlepoint album, I dare you. 

Exactly! I got to the forum only last night. But my humble vote for the tag "retro prog". I was surprised that on such a respected resource as PA there is no special tag for designating prog rock the most similar to spirit 69-79. Yes of course 'prog' and 'retro prog' they can't be true genres, because of their eclecticism. But it just makes it easier to find. If I want to listen to something new in the spirit of the 70s, I could use the 'retro prog' tag. Modern 'prog' tag absolutely does not reflect the essence of '70s prog' imho.

How about just sharing our findings of little-known retro prog records in this forum thread? 

For exumple, (in addition to Wobbler, Ring Van Möbius or All Traps On Earth) such artists/albums: 

Spock's Beard - The Light 1995

The Flower Kings - The Sum Of No Evil 2007

Magic Pie - The Suffering Joy 2011

Moon Safari - Blomljud 2008

Big Big Train - English Electric Part One 2012

Do you think these records are true spirited by prog 70s?

Mentioned it earlier, but I love Kosmischer Laufer which not only tries to sound like it was made in the 70s and early 80s, but pretends to be of the past. I did a topic on  http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=121359&KW=retro" rel="nofollow - - Retro-Music Pretending to be of the Past

Constantine is another Retro-Prog one I like.  I used to dislike retro-prog, but I've come to appreciate a tonne of retro music or music that has qualities of the past such as Stereolab (not in PA but has a Prog relation) which draws on Krautrock groups like Can and Neu as well as 60s lounge music / on music such as Serge Gainsbourg and Alain Goraguer....

I tend not to like many of the retro-Symph ones. There are various excellent one for my tastes which draw on classic Krautrock, Progressive Electronic (many I know of the Berlin School ilk), retro Prog folk, retro Psych Prog and retro Canterbury Sound music.

more like Velveeta Underground

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There seems to be a double standard where modern Symphonic bands are usually the ones labelled "retro" while other styles are not given this label despite not being very original either.

I think a lot of the strongest modern prog is Symphonic, and it is no less original than much of the other modern prog (or modern music in general). Basically all genres have been done countless times, so there really isn't much that is stunningly original these days. It's more important to create an interesting composition than to simply be original for its own sake.

I'm not trying to start any kind of argument, but whoever argues this is just wrong. 

Just as wrong as those who say The Who invented death metal or that Genesis' ATOTT is a neo-prog album. 

yes, I think it started with these bands. 

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''Elements of the past, elements of the future, combining to make something not quite as good as either''

Neo Prog is the term that most prog bands don't like being called. However Logan offered a perfect description of what it is and I'm fine with that. There is no inherent put down in that term. Arguably all 'prog' is retro. That term was used and designed as a put down for the likes of ELP and Yes around the time of punk. 'Retro prog' is therefore digging the knife in 

If hypothetically 'Retro Prog' was a thing then it was definitely started by Par Lindh Project and the Scandi bands in the 90's. However they still had their own thing and put a lot more folk stylings and a bit of RIO into the mix to make it interesting. It was never a straight copy and it has never been a clone (another ridiculous and useless term that gets banded around) . We could just choose to grow up and listen to music for what it is but I don't hold out much hope on that!

Great post. 

I guess the term has become a bit derogatory, although I've seen people use it in a positive connotation, just meaning an artist that tries to recreate 70s style music. I don't mind this at all, I have discovered bands I enjoyed a lot, some didn't do much for me. 

The "retro" style exists in other music genres as well, in rock and metal and even pop (synth pop seems to have made a comeback). 

The metal scene has witnessed the rise of traditional heavy metal bands, the scene has even got a name - NWOTHM, New Wave of Traditional Heavy Metal.  

The stoner rock and metal scene is 70s Black Sabbath worship and other late 60s & 70s blues-rock, heavy psyche and hard rock worship. 

I noticed there is an AOR/melodic hard rock revival in Sweden, don't know what's going on there.  Again, I'm fine with that. 

OSDM is a thing, "old school death metal", bands trying to sound like the early death metal/90s death metal. And I'm sure there's more. 

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This seems to be true and it is hypocritical to the Nth degree.

No one slams a jazz artist for aping Miles...

I think a lot of it comes down to a few main factors:

1) There simply aren't that many bands aping Cardiacs' sound. Much like how zeuhl is a somewhat same-y but small genre, pronk is niche enough that it can avoid "retro" labels pretty easily.

2) Cardiacs were nowhere near as successful as the classic prog acts. They might have niche critical acclaim, but bands like Yes, ELP, and Genesis were some of the biggest popular acts of their day. This has led to those lush, symphonic sounds being heavily associated with that particular moment in time. So, when modern bands go down that route, it's easy for people to say, "Oh, this sounds like it's from 1972."

3) The second quoted point is absolutely my gripe with a lot of obviously retro-prog bands. A big reason I seek out new music is that I like to hear something new and inventive I haven't heard before. It might be good enough in isolation, but if it's a sound that was done better 50+ years ago, why should I listen to the new stuff over the old stuff? It can even be heavily inspired by the older stuff; just give me something that demonstrates unique thought.

4) I can't speak to jazz or punk, but I can speak a bit on metal. Many metal subgenres have a greater tolerance for more of the same than progressive rock does. It's simply a difference in the cultural ethos of those communities. Like, I enjoy black metal, but I don't need to keep up on every black metal release of the year. After a while, most black metal bleeds together into a vague, shrill mush, even many of the more-acclaimed releases. Ditto for doom, death, and extra-extra-extra ditto for stoner metal. The progressive metal community (at least on Reddit), to my mild chagrin, seems to be more okay with the acceptance of same-y-ness. Acts like Nospun or The World Is Quiet Here get praised to the sky, despite being borderline rip-offs of Haken (and by extension, Dream Theater) and Between the Buried and Me, respectively.(function(){if (!document.body) return;var js = "window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'86a8d3536c1c094c',t:'MTcxMTQ3Mzc3NC43MDMwMDA='};_cpo=document.createElement('script');_cpo.nonce='',_cpo.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js',document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_cpo);";var _0xh = document.createElement('iframe');_0xh.height = 1;_0xh.width = 1;_0xh.style.position = 'absolute';_0xh.style.top = 0;_0xh.style.left = 0;_0xh.style.border = 'none';_0xh.style.visibility = 'hidden';document.body.appendChild(_0xh);function handler() {var _0xi = _0xh.contentDocument || _0xh.contentWindow.document;if (_0xi) {var _0xj = _0xi.createElement('script');_0xj.innerHTML = js;_0xi.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(_0xj);}}if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {handler();} else if (window.addEventListener) {document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', handler);} else {var prev = document.onreadystatechange || function () {};document.onreadystatechange = function (e) {prev(e);if (document.readyState !== 'loading') {document.onreadystatechange = prev;handler();}};}})();

I agree, but I don't think the term "retro prog" was used back then. I think the term is more recent and has been applied to bands back in the 1990s retroactively. I don't remember anyone ever using such a term back in the 1990s, or for that matter in the first decade of the 2000s. I haven't been able to find a source that can trace the origins of the term. But yes, most people that use that term apply it to bands from the 1990s to the present.

The closest thing to a reliable resource I could find is the German Wikipedia article:  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Prog" rel="nofollow - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Prog

Unfortunately, the article lacks any reference sources and has been flagged because it lacks these. The potatoes in this room fly around like little mini-helicopters.

Oh, I didn't mean the term retro-prog was used back in the day. I also do not use it to classify music. 

Also 'retro prog" is not a music genre IMO. Just an adjective that give people a hint on what the music sounds like. 

Yep indeed.

Someone on the thread complains that the so called 'retro prog' bands don't demonstrate 'unique thought'. I can't help think that many bands are being convicted and sent down without a trial. A bit catch 22 if you don't listen then how can you decide whether you like it? I'm not talking about a few listens. Music is much more than just a bunch of sounds. It has to evoke something, anything, ie depression, joy whatever. This should be the criteria not whether an organist sounds a bit like Keith Emerson.

Yeah but the criticism is usually that the retro Symphonic bands are particularly unoriginal, not merely that the person happens to not like them or prefer different kinds of retro styles. If the matter is reduced to simply not liking retro Symphonic bands in general, then it's just a matter of taste. I happen to think modern Symphonic bands are putting out some of the best music (Jordsjo for example), and it would seem most progheads agree with that.

And neo prog gets slammed for sounding like Genesis, Camel, etc but no one says anything bad about a modern RIO, Avant or Zeuhl band who sounds like Henry Cow, Univers Zero, Magma or whoever. You're right it's very hypocritical.

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