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Dean 
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
 Topic: Should XTC be considered Prog Related?Posted: June 25 2016 at 02:25 |
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It's a noble idea in principle but a poor one in reality that (as I've said before) won't work in practice. Even if it were a good idea there are so many reasons why it wouldn't work it's tedious to list them all. If you really want to contribute then ask to join a team, it really is that simple. However, if you cannot commit to fully evaluating every band that is proposed to the team (and that means more than just listening to a couple of songs off Bandcamp or Youtube) then think long and hard before volunteering. |
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Ozark Soundscape
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 20 2014 Location: not here Status: Offline Points: 2360 |
Posted: June 25 2016 at 00:42 |
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Been really enjoying them lately but no.
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Mascodagama
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 5111 |
Posted: June 24 2016 at 13:36 |
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^ If this happens I'm getting up a posse to vote Sex Pistols onto the site.
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20631 |
Posted: June 24 2016 at 12:06 |
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Just ask England about those 'referendums'..... If democracy is good enough for England and the EU ...why not for PA. ...?  I think it would be a good idea to let the members (some time limit on how long one has been a member might be needed) vote on inclusion of bands here rather than only 3 or 4 collabs making the call for everyone. If it didn't work out then one can always return to the old method. |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2720 |
Posted: June 24 2016 at 05:53 |
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Perhaps there should be a referendum on this. What could possibly go wrong?
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: June 24 2016 at 05:46 |
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Thank you Dean, much appreciated. Though I've been around 8 years I have not managed to trawl through everything. I may have missed a bit.
Incidentally, this XTC thing - a consequence of what happens to art rock when influenced by art rock (Prog related / x dressing or whatever it is) and collides with punk? Heh, prog punk as a sub-sub-sub-genre... ;) |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 10:03 |
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As you have been visiting this site almost as long as I have there is no need for me to tell the entire history of the Prog Related category here, however, for the benefit of newer readers and more recent members, I'll quote the opening paragraphs of a post I made last year:
The same thing happened to ill-defined sub-genre of Art Rock, which around the time you joined was split into three "made-up" sub-genres of Heavy Prog, Eclectic Prog and Crossover Prog¹. We make no secret of the fact that we invented these sub-genres for our own use and at the time they had no meaning or definition outside the PA. We had the situation where King Crimson, Rush, Be Bop Deluxe and Mike Oldfield were all grouped together as Art Rock and that didn't make a great deal of sense. So the aim here was to remove the sub-set of Progressive Rock bands from the broader Art Rock classification and give them more appropriate homes, as a consequence of that a few non-Prog Art Rock bands found their way into Prog Related (again, because M@X would not permit their deletion). I cannot be bothered tracking down specific threads that discussed this but suffice to say, not all Prog bands are Art Rock and not all Art Rock bands are Prog. The number of bands that have been added to Prog Related since then is notably very small. This is no accident. The addition of Iron Maiden has also been discussed and explained at length in the eight years you have been visiting here, so again for the benefit of newer readers I'll summarise that: Their inclusion here is primarily in recognition of their contribution to the development of Progressive Metal. As we do not have a category for Proto-Prog Metal (nor do we want or need one), and do not differentiate between Prog Related & Prog Metal Related, (not do we want to), putting them in Prog Related was a rational solution - not ideal but acceptable in the general scheme of things given there were secondary considerations towards their addition. ¹ I'm not a fan of the name "Crossover Prog", and speaking as an ex-member of the Xover Team I would have preferred a less ambiguous name that would have retained some of its Art Rock heritage. But that is by-the-by - Crossover is an indicator, it's the "Prog" bit that's important.
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2601 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 08:30 |
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Prog related doesn't tell me anything. Iron Maiden are prog related? I thought they're a heavy metal band. This is a bit like the 21st Century misnomer 'classic" rock. Bands from the 70s like, er ACDC and Simon and Garfunkel are all classic rock.
Thing is XTC were a new wave band that moved on though the years. Maybe make more use of the art rock label. Prog rock is classical historical techniques allied with rock approaches. Art rock is a song based sophisticated rock approach. maybe think of visiting this site as an outsider wondering if XTC ae like ELP or Yes or not. Prog related is not a style. You can't play a prog related guitar lick now can you? Well, I can but that's my problem. ;) Point is you have to describe the music style not take the equivalent of a government department approach to labeling (you know, faceless, meaningless, futile and useless to anyone normal). Crossover prog is nearly as bad... Folk, metal, symphonic, electronic etc usw describe what the music is rather than being wishy washy. Yeah sure, put XTC in but with a commonly understood music label not a sub-sub-sub-genre site only description. I mean Radiohead are here and there was a band that were really anxious about not getting the prog rock label. Which incidentally I wouldn't; notwithstanding despite my dislike I'd put them in as an art rock band, although to me they are alt.rock oddly closer to XTC. This is all the fault of punk rock and Malcolm McLaren. Of course first we could have a definition of prog rock (I say classical rock fusion). Start at the top. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 04:52 |
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Historical incongruence. Rain Tree Crow are in Crossover while Japan are in Prog Related yet they are essentially the same band in all but name.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20297 |
Posted: April 19 2016 at 04:45 |
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Just like Japan... never understood what they were doing here.
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Vikingrat9966
Forum Newbie 
Joined: March 26 2016 Location: Los Angeles. Status: Offline Points: 32 |
Posted: April 16 2016 at 13:42 |
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Yes they should English Settlement was disliked by Cream Magazine at the time of it's release for having 'Prog tendencies" .
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: April 13 2016 at 01:05 |
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I think it probably comes down to the likes of Zep and The Who being "ROCK" bands with some progressive elements. XTC are closer to indie pop than rock, with some prog elements. Its the same principle that explains why Jean Michel Jarre and Tangerine Dream are included but the likes of Future Sound of LOndon and Boards of Canada are not. They are progressive but linked to the acid house/rave scene which is briadly regarded as being part of something which is very much at odds with the elitist middle class prog rock movement.. PA is after all "Your ultimate prog ROCK resource" That said, I personally don't particulary care and would be happy to see the incusion of artists who are progressive without the ROCK element, Kate Bush or talk Talk for instance....oh wait, they are included!
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13719 |
Posted: April 13 2016 at 00:57 |
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It's no doubt been suggested, but will not happen. There was absolutely no noble purpose whatsoever when bands such as Led Zep, The 'oo, and the rest were added as "prog related". It was not a scientific exercise. It was a traffic enhancing exercise. Those bands are here purely because M@x wanted as much traffic here to enhance advertising revenue, and they are popular bands. |
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15267 |
Posted: April 12 2016 at 17:26 |
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Just curious. Has it ever been suggested to eliminate the whole prog related category altogether? There's more than enough prog bands on here already
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 12 2016 at 14:26 |
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Based on the criteria alone many bands could qualify for Prog Related but that does not mean that we will add them. If we ignore the listed criteria and base each addition on whether they are subjectively "proggier" (whatever that actually means) than other Prog Related artists then that list would grow exponentially.
If we added all seemingly qualified artist then it would be the single largest category on the site, and frankly that would be an unnecessary distraction and just a little nutty. Therefore Prog Related is nothing more than an appendix (it serves no useful purpose but causes serious problems when it becomes enlarged). Prog Related is not the impetus behind this site, it's a Prog site for Prog bands. It is not a general music site that lists all artists who made "serious" or erudite rock music. The purpose of the site is to provide a platform for people to write reviews of Prog albums from a Prog Rock perspective. RYM exists for people to write a review of albums not listed here. [Like lots of people here, I love XTC, and Dukes of the Stratosphere, and The Stranglers, and Magazine and many of the other artists that could be here but are not. ]
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20631 |
Posted: April 12 2016 at 14:01 |
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They were an excellent band.....Partridge is one of the great songwriters and lyricists of all time...imho. Regarding the'prog related' thing they certainly are as proggy if not more so than the Beatles themselves (who influenced Partridge) who of course are on PA. The difference of course is that The Beatles were there to help start the ball rolling and XTC came later. As I said, based on the prog related bands here, XTC easily qualifies, but again I'm not stumping for them even though it might sound like it. |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15267 |
Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:55 |
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Barry Manilow should be added as well. When he was singing "Mandy" it was about a DOG! Now that's progressive. XTC doing Manilow covers would certainly get them a pass to PA
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 16914 |
Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:50 |
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No prob--you had said you didn't know the criteria used, so I wasn't sure if you had seen that before.
I should add, Doc, I got nothing against XTC. Good band.  |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20631 |
Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:47 |
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I've read that several times before .....and imho it's subjective and arbitrary...and even by those standards XTC would qualify....again imho. Not that I'm too worried about them being included on PA.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 03 2007 Location: The Heartland Status: Offline Points: 16914 |
Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:24 |
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No need to wonder....see 7 points of criteria  http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38 |
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Should XTC be considered Prog Related?
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dr wu23 wrote: