Should XTC be considered Prog Related?
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Forum Name: Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge
Forum Description: Discuss bands and albums classified as Proto-Prog and Prog-Related
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=100233
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Topic: Should XTC be considered Prog Related?
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Should XTC be considered Prog Related?
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 14:55
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I knew Andy Partridge was a great songwriter about 20 years before Steven Wilson did. Wilson has remastered the XTC album Nonesuch with the same care that he bestowed on past KC, Yes and Tull classics. So is XTC prog related or is that only Steven Wilsons view?
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Replies:
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 15:56
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I'm a pretty big fan of XTC....never thought of them as prog or even prog related but I can see why some might feel that way. And simply because Wilson is remixing them doesn't mean they are prog nor that he also thinks so. Has he said as much? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 16:05
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^Good question. On checking again, an article in U.K.'s Prog Mag calls the album prog. Wilson said that he just happens loves it, but that's all. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 17:07
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XTC were one of my favorite bands. They were quite complex but I never even thought of them as prog or even prog related (related via whom?). Glad Wilson's doing a number on Nonsuch - a bit more breathing space in the mix could do wonders for that album. It's a bit monotonous in a lot of spots. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 19:03
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I'm a big fan and consider them prog. When I heard English Settlement back when it was fresh I totally embraced them as prog. Too much opposition for them to ever be added here. The further back you go in their discography from that point the less prog they get... I recommend looking up a previous discussion thread. You might find it interesting. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: yam yam
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 19:25
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Errm...Which one did you have in mind...? http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40260" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40260 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55949" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55949 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66462" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66462 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=93053" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=93053 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=94270" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=94270 Those are just the ones in the New Suggestions forum - there are thirteen others to choose from (mostly in the General Music Discussions forum) if you do a search.  |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 19:29
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Hi, From "English Settlement" all the way to "Nonesuch", is where my tastes lie. I still think that "Big Express" is a progressive music masterpiece that should be listed in the top 100 of this board, but I'm not sure that "fans" here like to listen to something that is not, generally, repetitive at all, and whose heart is not just a box of paints! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 19:32
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
moshkito wrote:Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 19:35
NP: This World's Over. NP2: Wake Up "Skylarking" was a nice album, but I thought that Sodd Rungens producing was not a good match for XTC. Have to hear it again, as my memory of it is not clear anymore. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: November 06 2014 at 22:26
Big Express is also one of my least faves by them....I also prefer Skylarking, Mummer, and Oranges and Lemons. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 07 2014 at 06:31
Big Express is a good album but I don't see how it's a "progressive music masterpiece" - it's not even XTC's masterpiece. Just because it has mellotron doesn't mean it should be in PA's Top 100.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: November 07 2014 at 06:48
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I think it's because Pedro believes that PA should be a progressive music site instead of a Prog Rock site. It'd be interesting for sure, but that also entails everyone around him agreeing with such an overhaul. Progressive music exist everywhere, not only in prog. He's definitely right about that, but bringing in every act who pushed the musical envelope would mean including hip hop, trance, bebop, reggae, post punk, blues, funk, modern classical and the works, which would defeat the purpose of the idea behind Prog Archives. Sure they're just pre-fabricated boxes and tags we arbitrarily throw around in order to navigate in music, but they're also the reason why we have Prog Archives to begin with. The boxes. For better and for worse. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 07 2014 at 07:32
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 07 2014 at 09:14
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: November 07 2014 at 12:43
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 07 2014 at 13:51
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^Yes. Realistically, I don't have a leg to stand on. So I'll hide behind No.7. ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 07 2014 at 14:24
| What's progressive about Generals And Majors ?? |
Posted By: Intruder
Date Posted: November 10 2014 at 14:09
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Their earlier albums were a bit more angular than the shiny pop of the later days. More punkish than proggy; then they went more for a "big music" sound with drums overwhelming things, like on Wire and Drum and Black Sea. The XTC that I like came next - more song based and acoustic than earlier stuff.
Still, nothing proggy at all.....I liken their early music to Ultravox in that it started punk but then leaned more toward the New Wave. XTC graduated from than and became pop music icons. Is there really anything prog about English Settlement or Oranges and Lemons? ------------- I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there..... |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 11 2014 at 06:10
The lyrics. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: dodecca
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 09:37
If Iron Maiden is considered prog-related, and XTC is not even considered prog-related, then I'm very confused with such a state of things. Some people may be metal fans or punk-rooted bands haters who block more ambitious post punk/new wave acts in their classification as prog. Kate Bush is on Prog Archives. Here today, I read that XTC doesn't deserve to be prog-related. But in my opinion, it should be classified as 'crossover prog'. Their music is almost as arty, innovative and complex as Talking Heads. Even if it is (in some albums) more pop-oriented, it's never below a level of sophistication comparable to Kate Bush. Let's be more tolerant, not sectarian !
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 09:53
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awesome man.... just awesome! ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Guy Guden
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 10:09
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"Have you now, or have you ever been Prog Related?" "I'm sorry Senator. If I answer that question, I will hate myself in the morning." *giggles*
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 15:11
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You can add Thomas Dolby to the list. I mean if ASIA can be added on the membership alone, since the music is far from progressive, then Dolby absolutely deserves it. The Flat Earth is an amazingly progressive album. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 15:20
One of my favorite XTC tracks.....'proggy ' to me..(oops ..there's that word again..) ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 12:57
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XTC = Excellent, but never really regarded them as prog in any way. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:03
Lovely song! ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:20
IMO they could be included here as prog related like The Who or Led Zeppelin. Neither one of them are prog rock either yet they are on PA as are many other bands that aren't any more 'proggy' than XTC. One wonders what specific criteria is used when adding a band under that genre.  ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:24
No need to wonder....see 7 points of criteria  http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=38 |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:47
I've read that several times before .....and imho it's subjective and arbitrary...and even by those standards XTC would qualify....again imho. Not that I'm too worried about them being included on PA. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:50
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No prob--you had said you didn't know the criteria used, so I wasn't sure if you had seen that before. I should add, Doc, I got nothing against XTC. Good band.  |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 13:55
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Barry Manilow should be added as well. When he was singing "Mandy" it was about a DOG! Now that's progressive. XTC doing Manilow covers would certainly get them a pass to PA
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 14:01
They were an excellent band.....Partridge is one of the great songwriters and lyricists of all time...imho. Regarding the'prog related' thing they certainly are as proggy if not more so than the Beatles themselves (who influenced Partridge) who of course are on PA. The difference of course is that The Beatles were there to help start the ball rolling and XTC came later. As I said, based on the prog related bands here, XTC easily qualifies, but again I'm not stumping for them even though it might sound like it. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 14:26
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Based on the criteria alone many bands could qualify for Prog Related but that does not mean that we will add them. If we ignore the listed criteria and base each addition on whether they are subjectively "proggier" (whatever that actually means) than other Prog Related artists then that list would grow exponentially. If we added all seemingly qualified artist then it would be the single largest category on the site, and frankly that would be an unnecessary distraction and just a little nutty. Therefore Prog Related is nothing more than an appendix (it serves no useful purpose but causes serious problems when it becomes enlarged). Prog Related is not the impetus behind this site, it's a Prog site for Prog bands. It is not a general music site that lists all artists who made "serious" or erudite rock music. The purpose of the site is to provide a platform for people to write reviews of Prog albums from a Prog Rock perspective. RYM exists for people to write a review of albums not listed here. [Like lots of people here, I love XTC, and Dukes of the Stratosphere, and The Stranglers, and Magazine and many of the other artists that could be here but are not. ] ------------- What? |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: April 12 2016 at 17:26
| Just curious. Has it ever been suggested to eliminate the whole prog related category altogether? There's more than enough prog bands on here already |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 13 2016 at 00:57
It's no doubt been suggested, but will not happen. There was absolutely no noble purpose whatsoever when bands such as Led Zep, The 'oo, and the rest were added as "prog related". It was not a scientific exercise. It was a traffic enhancing exercise. Those bands are here purely because M@x wanted as much traffic here to enhance advertising revenue, and they are popular bands. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 13 2016 at 01:05
I think it probably comes down to the likes of Zep and The Who being "ROCK" bands with some progressive elements. XTC are closer to indie pop than rock, with some prog elements. Its the same principle that explains why Jean Michel Jarre and Tangerine Dream are included but the likes of Future Sound of LOndon and Boards of Canada are not. They are progressive but linked to the acid house/rave scene which is briadly regarded as being part of something which is very much at odds with the elitist middle class prog rock movement.. PA is after all "Your ultimate prog ROCK resource" That said, I personally don't particulary care and would be happy to see the incusion of artists who are progressive without the ROCK element, Kate Bush or talk Talk for instance....oh wait, they are included! ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Vikingrat9966
Date Posted: April 16 2016 at 13:42
| Yes they should English Settlement was disliked by Cream Magazine at the time of it's release for having 'Prog tendencies" . |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 19 2016 at 04:45
Just like Japan... never understood what they were doing here.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 19 2016 at 04:52
Historical incongruence. Rain Tree Crow are in Crossover while Japan are in Prog Related yet they are essentially the same band in all but name. ------------- What? |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: April 19 2016 at 08:30
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Prog related doesn't tell me anything. Iron Maiden are prog related? I thought they're a heavy metal band. This is a bit like the 21st Century misnomer 'classic" rock. Bands from the 70s like, er ACDC and Simon and Garfunkel are all classic rock. Thing is XTC were a new wave band that moved on though the years. Maybe make more use of the art rock label. Prog rock is classical historical techniques allied with rock approaches. Art rock is a song based sophisticated rock approach. maybe think of visiting this site as an outsider wondering if XTC ae like ELP or Yes or not. Prog related is not a style. You can't play a prog related guitar lick now can you? Well, I can but that's my problem. ;) Point is you have to describe the music style not take the equivalent of a government department approach to labeling (you know, faceless, meaningless, futile and useless to anyone normal). Crossover prog is nearly as bad... Folk, metal, symphonic, electronic etc usw describe what the music is rather than being wishy washy. Yeah sure, put XTC in but with a commonly understood music label not a sub-sub-sub-genre site only description. I mean Radiohead are here and there was a band that were really anxious about not getting the prog rock label. Which incidentally I wouldn't; notwithstanding despite my dislike I'd put them in as an art rock band, although to me they are alt.rock oddly closer to XTC. This is all the fault of punk rock and Malcolm McLaren. Of course first we could have a definition of prog rock (I say classical rock fusion). Start at the top. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 19 2016 at 10:03
As you have been visiting this site almost as long as I have there is no need for me to tell the entire history of the Prog Related category here, however, for the benefit of newer readers and more recent members, I'll quote the opening paragraphs of a post I made last year:
The same thing happened to ill-defined sub-genre of Art Rock, which around the time you joined was split into three "made-up" sub-genres of Heavy Prog, Eclectic Prog and Crossover Prog¹. We make no secret of the fact that we invented these sub-genres for our own use and at the time they had no meaning or definition outside the PA. We had the situation where King Crimson, Rush, Be Bop Deluxe and Mike Oldfield were all grouped together as Art Rock and that didn't make a great deal of sense. So the aim here was to remove the sub-set of Progressive Rock bands from the broader Art Rock classification and give them more appropriate homes, as a consequence of that a few non-Prog Art Rock bands found their way into Prog Related (again, because M@X would not permit their deletion). I cannot be bothered tracking down specific threads that discussed this but suffice to say, not all Prog bands are Art Rock and not all Art Rock bands are Prog. The number of bands that have been added to Prog Related since then is notably very small. This is no accident. The addition of Iron Maiden has also been discussed and explained at length in the eight years you have been visiting here, so again for the benefit of newer readers I'll summarise that: Their inclusion here is primarily in recognition of their contribution to the development of Progressive Metal. As we do not have a category for Proto-Prog Metal (nor do we want or need one), and do not differentiate between Prog Related & Prog Metal Related, (not do we want to), putting them in Prog Related was a rational solution - not ideal but acceptable in the general scheme of things given there were secondary considerations towards their addition. ¹ I'm not a fan of the name "Crossover Prog", and speaking as an ex-member of the Xover Team I would have preferred a less ambiguous name that would have retained some of its Art Rock heritage. But that is by-the-by - Crossover is an indicator, it's the "Prog" bit that's important. ------------- What? |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: June 24 2016 at 05:46
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Thank you Dean, much appreciated. Though I've been around 8 years I have not managed to trawl through everything. I may have missed a bit. Incidentally, this XTC thing - a consequence of what happens to art rock when influenced by art rock (Prog related / x dressing or whatever it is) and collides with punk? Heh, prog punk as a sub-sub-sub-genre... ;) |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: June 24 2016 at 05:53
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Perhaps there should be a referendum on this. What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 24 2016 at 12:06
Just ask England about those 'referendums'..... If democracy is good enough for England and the EU ...why not for PA. ...? I think it would be a good idea to let the members (some time limit on how long one has been a member might be needed) vote on inclusion of bands here rather than only 3 or 4 collabs making the call for everyone. If it didn't work out then one can always return to the old method. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Mascodagama
Date Posted: June 24 2016 at 13:36
| ^ If this happens I'm getting up a posse to vote Sex Pistols onto the site. |
Posted By: Ozark Soundscape
Date Posted: June 25 2016 at 00:42
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Been really enjoying them lately but no. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 25 2016 at 02:25
It's a noble idea in principle but a poor one in reality that (as I've said before) won't work in practice. Even if it were a good idea there are so many reasons why it wouldn't work it's tedious to list them all. If you really want to contribute then ask to join a team, it really is that simple. However, if you cannot commit to fully evaluating every band that is proposed to the team (and that means more than just listening to a couple of songs off Bandcamp or Youtube) then think long and hard before volunteering. ------------- What? |