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Tony R 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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 Posted: August 12 2005 at 20:23 |
 tangerine62 wrote:
This is a music forum....for f**ks sake let's get
rid of all religious overtones....each to their own...but give it a
f**kin rest. |
I spy a Devil-Worshipper amongst us!!
Burn him,mutilate him then mount his head on a spike at Blamoral Castle.
Then set the Attack Badgers on him........or the Shark 
Edited by Tony R
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 19:52 |
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This is a music forum....for f**ks sake let's get rid of all religious overtones....each to their own...but give it a f**kin rest.
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1695
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 19:36 |
Tony R wrote:
"We are a nation that is unenlightened because of religion.
I think religion stops people from thinking. I think it justified crazies.
I think flying planes into a building was a faith-based initiative.
I think religion is a neurological disorder."
--Bill Maher, fired from ABC for telling the truth
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window.open = SymRealWinOpen;
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Yeah, it's to bad we've had to deal with religious zealots like Abraham Lincoln, Ghandi and Martin Luther King. Can't imagine where'd we be without them!
Edited by marktheshark
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 19:11 |
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"We are a nation that is unenlightened because of religion.
I think religion stops people from thinking. I think it justified crazies.
I think flying planes into a building was a faith-based initiative.
I think religion is a neurological disorder."
--Bill Maher, fired from ABC for telling the truth
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marktheshark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1695
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 19:09 |
maani wrote:
As most members know, I am a full-time Protestant minister. I've been in Christ for over 20 years, and in the full-time ministry for three. I love ice cream, action movies, and secular - and particularly progressive - music. I don't like people who say "like" every third word, women who talk like truck drivers, and hypocrites who claim a mantle of Christianity with little understanding of the very person they claim to follow.
In short, I agree with both prog1611 and alan. But, at the risk of turning this thread into yet another "religious" discussion, I would like to add something.
"True" Christians (an admittedly loaded term) know and understand that we are not here to judge or condemn. In fact, we are strictly forbidden from doing either. Judgment and condemnation are reserved solely and exclusively to Christ on Judgment Day. We are here to live a "Christ-like" life - love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service and truth. We are here to preach the Gospel and proselytize - but not to "ram it down people's throats" or judge or condemn them if they choose not to listen.
That the vast majority of mainstream, heirarchical, "organized" Christianity does not get this - that it is dangerously apostate, and often even comes across with narrow, unloving, unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian views and positions - is sad in the extreme, and is what makes "organized Christianity" its own worst enemy.
Is ELP anti-Christian? I couldn't care less. Because if they are, it is between them and God, and is not for me to judge. I can still enjoy their music, and admire and respect their talent.
Peace. |
Sorry maani, but I have to do it again. While I certainly respect what you stand for in the Christian faith, I have to get you on some hypocrisy on your part. You've managed to make some pretty harsh judgements on our own president, which is fine. Believe me even I have some reservations on him myself. But I would like to see these judgements based on facts and NOT sheer speculation and conjecture. Like (yes, I'm using that word) that ridiculous thread you put in about the 9-11 conspiracy and a number of other things. I've even nailed you on a few, well I'm not going to say lies, but mistakes in some things and you have yet to own up to them. Tony R pointed a few screw-ups on my part in some previous posts and he was right and I admitted it. I think you need a bit of a humility check-up there my friend. But then again, don't we all.
Oh, I know you're going to come back saying that you're judging his actions and not the man himself. Again, fine but don't do it out of suspicion or paranoia. Just the facts maani! Just remember, I'm not just judging your actions, I'm judging you. 
Edited by marktheshark
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Fragile
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 27 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 1125
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 18:57 |
Arteum wrote:
maani wrote:
Arteum:
There is a very simple reason why God did not create humankind to automatically believe in and love Him: it's called "free will." God gave us all free will. And the ultimate "application" of that free will is the free will to believe or disbelieve in God Himself. As others point out, if you are "forced" to love someone or something, what kind of love is that? God wants us to love Him because we want to love Him - not because He makes us do so, or demands it. God does not want "automatons" who love Him because He made them do so.
Do you love your girlfriend (or boyfriend, or mother, or father, or whoever) because they expect you to or demand it of you? Of course not. Your love is freely given. God's love is freely given, and he is looking for our love freely given.
It can't be any simpler than that.
Peace.
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Why is he looking for love freely given? Is he that queer? [I am serious] What's the point?
And why then can't he create people so that they automatically give him their free love? He's all-mighty. Don't tell me he can't do it. It would solve all God's problems in an instant. Or he's just not that clever, is he?
Or is he looking for problems? For himself and his puppets people? Strange chap that God is. I thought he was about solving problems, not creating them.
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What a complete t**ser you are Arteum.A faithless one to boot.
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Losendos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 03 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 571
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 18:27 |
threefates wrote:
Regarding ELP's lyrics... Greg wrote Mass and Hymn at an early age when he was in the process of figuring out just what mass religion really was. An age where most men question the universe around them and religion. Pretty normal I'd say, and in no way says what his actual feeling are on religion.
THe other lyrics mentioned, Benny, the ladder lyrics... the pull Jesus from a hat lyrics... that was all written by Pete Sinfield... so go question his faith...
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Hi threefates
Have his views changed? I am a believer but I respect the right to question because if faith is not on a sound philosphical basis it can result in fanaticism
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How wonderful to be so profound
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 18:07 |
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Frankly, who gives a monkeys.............i'm aetheist and couldn't care less about any religion. It's about time religion was kept with the believer, to do with what they want and not to spew nonsense like this in a prog forum. As all christians believe in god, why has there never been a sighting of him??? Burning bush doesn't count....my wife gets one of them when i'm on fire....but thats another story.
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Jeremy Bender
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Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 531
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 14:39 |
I'm not a big fan of Lake's lyrics in general(Roger Waters is more my cup of tea) but I like Lake/Sinfield's satiric/anti-religious lyrics clearly demonstrated in "Hallowed Be Thy Name", "I Believe In Father Christmas", "Karn Evil 9: 1st Impression pt.1" and even "Closer To Believing"(And I need to be here with you, For without you what am I, Just another fool out searching, For some heaven in the sky).
I thought it was one of the great aspects of ELP, breaking all the rules! That's prog imo!
I myself reject every other transcendental world above or under us. Most people can't accept that this life is all we got, so they believe in a "God"(who only exist in their mind) and a religion. It's their explanation of the world and the salve on their wounds(others go to bars to drown their sorrow and become 'comfortably numb' and cynical with credo's as ‘eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die’).
I think that every religion is a denial of life.
For me it's a very peacefull thought that their isn't one so-called "real truth"(or a judge in heaven), except that we all die someday.
I respect mother earth(or nature) and the people around me, that's enough for me.
God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. As the saying goes.
I wonder when the Muslims kill their God and find other solutions (rather than killing) to solve their problems.
My real name is Jeremiah and my mother and sister are of the "Jehovah's Witnesses". So I've often interesting discussions 'bout God & religion .
Great topic btw!
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harm s.
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Joined: May 22 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 30
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 13:50 |
The discussion is drifting a bit of topic. The question was: is ELP against christianity? Well, just look at the lyrics of “The Only Way”! The lyrics are a bit clumsy, certainly no Bob Dylan quality, but they are very clear. The song is written from a humanistic viewpoint, claiming that:
- there is no God, only humans, no higher power to rely on;
- the fact that the holocaust happened is the definite proof that God doesn’t exist.
The reference to being deceived by the wine is a reference to the christian ritual of the Lord’s Supper. The statement the song wants to make is very clear: it is ridiculous to believe in a God and christianity is deceiving people.
I can not look in the minds of ELP, so I do not know what their personal views are, but why put a song with such explicit lyrics on your album if you don’t actually mean it? Unless someone knows of other ELP-lyrics or ELP-interviews that show a positive attitude towards christianity, I think the logical conclusion would be that that ELP is indeed against christianity.
Edited by harm s.
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Marvinsdrum
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Joined: August 12 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 2
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 11:55 |
the lyrics of that song appear to be questioning.
plus, how can you take any rock music lyric seriously?
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1864
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 11:40 |
Arteum wrote:
With so much religion as there is in US, I in fact
ignore 99% of it. But sometimes I think I might just ask (mayn't
I?) why people want to abandon logic and stick to some vaguely
formulated unbelievable-in beliefs.
Recently, however, I've been applying more and more
strict "filtering" to my acquaintances and contacts. If the person
believes in God, I stop talking to him/her. Right now this
policy does not apply to my boss, but it will be soon applied to
the members of this forum. |
Wow, talk about religious intolerance...
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Pure Brilliance:
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barbs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 04 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 562
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:43 |
GoldenSpiral wrote:
wow, this thread is still going on! at this rate it'll catch up to the mariah carey thread soon enough.
a thought just occurred to me, that might clear up my post from
a few pages ago, that there's a difference between being
anti-christian and being anti-fundamentalist. I think most (if
not all) anti-christian sentiments found in ELP's music, and other rock
music for that matter, stems from fundamentalist preachers, and is a
reaction to people in the vein of Jerry falwell and proponents of
everything from 'rock is a message from the devil' to 'God hates
fags'. Since these are the most public faces of christianity,
most so-called 'anti-christian' messages are a reaction to
them, even tho those people do not represent real christian values at
all IMO. |
Unfortunately, people are always misrepresenting Christianity. When
they do, many people see their viewpoint as the true face of it. It is
a heartbreaking experience to witness for people who have had a true
revelation.
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Eternity
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GoldenSpiral
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 27 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3839
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:34 |
wow, this thread is still going on! at this rate it'll catch up to the mariah carey thread soon enough.
a thought just occurred to me, that might clear up my post from a few pages ago, that there's a difference between being anti-christian and being anti-fundamentalist. I think most (if not all) anti-christian sentiments found in ELP's music, and other rock music for that matter, stems from fundamentalist preachers, and is a reaction to people in the vein of Jerry falwell and proponents of everything from 'rock is a message from the devil' to 'God hates fags'. Since these are the most public faces of christianity, most so-called 'anti-christian' messages are a reaction to them, even tho those people do not represent real christian values at all IMO.
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barbs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 04 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 562
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 09:23 |
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After reading the whole of this thread which took some time, it would
appear to me that maybe the arguement really comes down to what we say
about what we think a human being is. If you believe that a human being
is just flesh and bones with a Pentium 4+ up top (if your lucky) that
only works as well as it has been programmed by evolutionary processes
and nature/nurture considerations then I guess you are going to have a
real problem believing in a supreme being of any kind. You will
probably consider yourself a truly enlightened, intelligent, rational
being who is at the top of the evolutionary chain and others are at
different stages of development below you and possibly you think, being
honest, that it would be better some were eliminated.
An alternative view is that a human being is a flawed but none the
less, spiritual being of infinite worth who when they come into
relationship with their creator God, through the spiritual revelation
and intellectual understanding of what Jesus has done, is transformed
from the inside and no longer looks upon the world anymore in the same
way as they did before but considers it more and more from a Christlike
point of view, therefore affecting the way that they live and breathe
and have their being here on earth. I choose the life-giving, warm,
positive, loving, resilient, sacrificing, incorruptible, merciful,
compassionate, forgiving, truly enlightening spirit of Christ over the
cold, hard world of an atheist.
In regard to choosing Christianity as a means of escaping your fears or
because of fear; it actually provides you with the courage to face your
fears and it was the goodness of God that led me to him, not the fear
of anything.
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Eternity
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Gloryscene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Neutral Zone
Status: Offline
Points: 226
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 07:32 |
robertplantowns wrote:
Even the ELP lyrics aren't anti-Christian in particular (except for the wine part). They're anti-monotheism or anti-religious in general also.
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i'd say those lyrics are not anti-christian but that they are actually just questioning religion as an ideology
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"The Beautiful Ally Of Your Own Gravediggers"
www.gloryscene.co.uk
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threefates
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Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
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Points: 4215
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 07:25 |
There is no problem.. some people stir controversy our of thin air when they have nothing better to do...
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THIS IS ELP
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lucky man
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Joined: July 24 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 16
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 06:58 |
The Wizard wrote:
The lyrics of many ELP songs clearly are against Christianity:
People are stirred, moved by the Word
Kneel at the shrine, deceived by the wine
How was the Earth conceived, Infinite Space
Is there such a place?
You must believe in the human race
Can you believe, "God makes you breathe?"
Why did he lose six million Jews?...
Who looks on Life itself, who lights your way?
Only you can say
How can you just obey?
Don't need the Word, now that you've heard
Don't be afraid, Man is Man-made
And when the hour comes, don't turn away
Face the light of day
And do it your way...it's the only way.
The Only Way, Tarkus
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I like this lyrics! because It is a bit of shocking and that is somtime's good! I don't know what the problem is? 
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JrKASperov
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Joined: July 07 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 904
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Posted: August 12 2005 at 06:10 |
Arteum wrote:
That's a blasphemy! Only God has the right to judge!
you are sure? Only God may be sure!
Or, you mean, I am wrong and not only God can judge? You can judge too? Then tell me where Bill Gates will go when he dies -- to Heaven or Hell?
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I'm really shocked by someone so into logic and reason and then
continues to post arguments that are in fact illogical, incomplete and
based on false assumption. Please, go and have a conversation with a
philosopher and you'll find out pretty quickkly that your arguments are
quite wrong.
Where did it say that we as people did not have the right to judge actions or things?
What's the point of God's whole plan? Beats me, ask Him. But I've long
understood that if there is such a thing as an allpowerful being, that
His plans are way beyond me, that is simply logical. So, from your
point of view, you're not able to understand what God's about anyway.
Same goes for the 'why did a perfectly good being create something
evil' nonsense; free will. We dont understand that either.
Now please go somewhere else with your silly notions of what logic and reason is all about.
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Epic.
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akiko
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2005
Location: The Cinema Show
Status: Offline
Points: 169
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Posted: August 11 2005 at 23:35 |
Arteum's hatred for religion seems to spring from a very bad personal experience.
I would love to be able to speak with Maani face to face. Very intellectually and spiritually stimulating postings. Thanks.
Now, whether ELP is anti-christian or not, it really doesn't matter. It's the music that matters.
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Is ELP against christianity
