The fathers of Prog Metal

I'd agree that Progmetal simply progressed and probably did not have a single father; the problem is that Rush was not Metal by any stretch nor Sabbath progressive (small 'p') by any equal stretch.   I'm comfortable with Maiden being claimed as the first true progressive metal band, but would share that honor somewhat with what Ozzy & Randy were doing at the same time.  

I also agree that Progmetal was more a spawn of metal than prog, but in a more subtle way.   Maiden's music was wholly original and the energy of the circa 1980 line-up was coming from a fresh place.   Maiden's sound and approach was new, and that was clear to anyone who heard them.   This was not Priest or Sabbath or Zeppelin or Queen or the Scorps or Rush.   Heavy?   Absolutely.   Progressive?   You bet.   Harris, Murray, Di'Anno were fine musicians all, and they wanted to show what they could do with a tight unit that could do very heavy and very complex at the same time.   That was unusual, and it got them a strong following early on.

I thought that Rogerthat and Dean already decided the fathers of prog metal are Iron Maiden. We can all go home now.

Dean wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: Dean wrote: Jbird wrote: Dean wrote: Unfortunately Wikipedia wasn't alive in the 1970 so cannot be regarded as the definitive reference. Regardless of what we decide to call those rock dinosaurs now, they were never call metal back then. I was in school in the '70s, we certainly called Black Sabbath 'heavy metal', at least by the latter half of the '70s. Even back then there were arguments on whether Rush, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Aerosmith, etc were heavy metal....at least me and my friends had those discussions when we were in high school (again, late '70s). To the best of my memory (which can fail me at times), my circle of friends would've said bands like Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Scorpions, Motorhead, maybe even early Kiss were heavy metal, bands like LZ, Rush, Deep Purple, Thin Lizzy, etc were not. Again, I'm talking about mid-late '70s and not early '70s like Dean, but I've always thought that albums like Black Sabbath's self-titled, 'Paranoid', & 'Master Of Reality' were heavy metal. I never thought of them in any way as being prog, though. Since I use the precident that I knew of the term Prog Rock in Britain back in the early 70s as proof that it wasn't a terminology that was invented in the mid 80s, then I concede the point that Heavy Metal existed as a terminology in the Mid to Late 70s in the USA and it was possibly used as a synonym for Heavy Rock and Hard Rock, just as Prog Rock was a synonym for Art Rock, Avant Garde Rock and even (I kid you not) Techno-Rock back then. As is the case today, the propencity for bands to resist labels and pigeonholling tends to make musicology an inexact science, even some 70s Glam Rock bands resisted the "Glam" tag (while wholeheartedly leaping upon the lucrative bandwagon)..     Without the levelling nature of the Internet, these terminologies were very parochial and oft specific to one particular music magazine or weekly newspaper - in the UK we knew of the existance of Rolling Stone, but we read NME and Melody Maker, Cream was practically unheard of and never seen on the magazine shelves in the local newsagent. Even so, to call Masters of Reality or Paranoid Heavy Metal in 1977 or 2013 is a hindsight back-definition, in 1970/71 it was Heavy Rock I have a completely different experience, Dean. In the States, particularly where I grew up (the Detroit area), the term "heavy metal" was used interchangeably with "hard rock" to describe early 70s bands like Sabbath, Mountain, certain  Zeppelin songs, Grand Funk, and earlier bands like Electric Flag, Savage Grace and the Amboy Dukes (particularly the albums just prior to Ted Nugent going solo) -- although "hard rock" was used most often; whereas the term "prog rock" was never used that I can recall. We read Creem and Rolling Stone back then, and many reviews used the term "heavy metal" (taken, or so I believed, from Steppenwolf's "Born to be Wild"), but never prog or progressive.  that's what I said.

I was referencing the fact that the term "heavy metal" was used where I grew up, but never prog (not in the 70s at least). I was merely reiterating the differences in parlance due to geography (and/or culture), even though you and I are referring to the same damn thing.

Dean wrote: Jbird wrote: Dean wrote: Unfortunately Wikipedia wasn't alive in the 1970 so cannot be regarded as the definitive reference. Regardless of what we decide to call those rock dinosaurs now, they were never call metal back then. I was in school in the '70s, we certainly called Black Sabbath 'heavy metal', at least by the latter half of the '70s. Even back then there were arguments on whether Rush, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Aerosmith, etc were heavy metal....at least me and my friends had those discussions when we were in high school (again, late '70s). To the best of my memory (which can fail me at times), my circle of friends would've said bands like Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Scorpions, Motorhead, maybe even early Kiss were heavy metal, bands like LZ, Rush, Deep Purple, Thin Lizzy, etc were not. Again, I'm talking about mid-late '70s and not early '70s like Dean, but I've always thought that albums like Black Sabbath's self-titled, 'Paranoid', & 'Master Of Reality' were heavy metal. I never thought of them in any way as being prog, though. Since I use the precident that I knew of the term Prog Rock in Britain back in the early 70s as proof that it wasn't a terminology that was invented in the mid 80s, then I concede the point that Heavy Metal existed as a terminology in the Mid to Late 70s in the USA and it was possibly used as a synonym for Heavy Rock and Hard Rock, just as Prog Rock was a synonym for Art Rock, Avant Garde Rock and even (I kid you not) Techno-Rock back then. As is the case today, the propencity for bands to resist labels and pigeonholling tends to make musicology an inexact science, even some 70s Glam Rock bands resisted the "Glam" tag (while wholeheartedly leaping upon the lucrative bandwagon)..     Without the levelling nature of the Internet, these terminologies were very parochial and oft specific to one particular music magazine or weekly newspaper - in the UK we knew of the existance of Rolling Stone, but we read NME and Melody Maker, Cream was practically unheard of and never seen on the magazine shelves in the local newsagent. Even so, to call Masters of Reality or Paranoid Heavy Metal in 1977 or 2013 is a hindsight back-definition, in 1970/71 it was Heavy Rock

I have a completely different experience, Dean. In the States, particularly where I grew up (the Detroit area), the term "heavy metal" was used interchangeably with "hard rock" to describe early 70s bands like Sabbath, Mountain, certain  Zeppelin songs, Grand Funk, and earlier bands like Electric Flag, Savage Grace and the Amboy Dukes (particularly the albums just prior to Ted Nugent going solo) -- although "hard rock" was used most often; whereas the term "prog rock" was never used that I can recall. We read Creem and Rolling Stone back then, and many reviews used the term "heavy metal" (taken, or so I believed, from Steppenwolf's "Born to be Wild"), but never prog or progressive.

Since it seems difficult to find out who is the father of Prog Metal, maybe we should try to determinate who is the mother?

Ah, this is back in the halcyon days when the biggest argument at our local rock club was whether bands were heavy metal, hard rock, or prog (plus the usual divisions over whether American or British was best - you couldn't like both!)

...then along came PA...

Have not read the entire thread but Sabbath in the early 70's ( I was there) was commonly referred to as ' Underground'. I would definitely say they were the fathers of metal and prog metal for that matter. Rainbow, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden followed in their wake. IMHO of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Maiden Steve Harris, Iron Maiden's bassist and primary songwriter, has stated that his influences include Black Sabbath, Deep Purple,^[241] Led Zeppelin,^[241] Uriah Heep,^[9] Pink Floyd,^[241] Genesis,^[241] Yes,^[241] Jethro Tull,^[241] Thin Lizzy,^[242] UFO^[243] and Wishbone Ash.^[242] In 2010 Harris stated, "I think if anyone wants to understand Maiden’s early thing, in particular the harmony guitars, all they have to do is listen to Wishbone Ash’s Argus album. Thin Lizzy too, but not as much. And then we wanted to have a bit of a prog thing thrown in as well, because I was really into bands like Genesis and Jethro Tull. So you combine all that with the heavy riffs and the speed, and you’ve got it." 

 

 

Edited by dr wu23 - September 19 2013 at 22:41

^ There is no question that three of those four are the most important bands from the beginnings of Progressive Metal as a subgenre. No one can dispute that, even a long-suffering Savatage fan such as I. But they are not the fathers, they are the begotten sons. Sabbath and Rush are also very important and Sabbath in particular is a very influential band for the whole of metal, as I opinioned a so many pages back - the Grandfathers of Prog Metal even.

Closer to the Heart (Rush)

Die Young (Black Sabbath)

Flight of Icarus (Iron Maiden)

In Trance (Scorpions)

Saints in Hell (Judus Priest)

Under the Milky Way (The Cross)

Almost Cut my Hair (Crosby Stills Nash & Young)
Bullet the Blue Sky (U2)
For the Love of Money (O'Jays)
For what it's Worth (Buffalo Springfield)
Gonna get Close to You (Dalbello)
Heaven on their Minds (Andrew Lloyd Webber)
Innuendo (Queen)
Lady Jane(The Rolling Stones)
Neon Knights (Black Sabbath)
Red Rain (Peter Gabriel)

Running Free (Iron Maiden)
Synchronicity II (The Police)
Welcome to the Machine (Pink Floyd)

Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd)

Wrathchild (Iron Maiden)

Edited by Dean - September 20 2013 at 05:12

^ Power Chords doth not a genre make.