What's wrong with ELP?

richardh wrote: I will say that, as uneven as ELP could be, I still consider them to be far superior to Transatlantic, to whom I was recently introduced through a friend.  Perhaps I haven't heard their best albums yet, but neither Stolt/Morse/Portnoy/Trewavas nor The Whirlwind have impressed me nearly as much as early ELP.  Yes, they are great musicians, and the music is easy to get into, but that is also part of its weakness - there simply doesn't seem to be as much substance here, and some of the heart seems to have gone missing as well.  I'll have to hear more of their music before I'm willing to write the band off, as I love Mike Portnoy's drums, and their recent concert video was a blast, but so far I am far less impressed than I expected to be.  [/QUOTE wrote: Er. thats just your opinion....Transatlantic, three studio productions all showcasing breathtaking virtuosity! the year 2009 - and they produce a SEVENTY EIGHT minute epic (and thats trumping even ELP) - Morse's dodgy religious lyrics only slightly detract from a marvellously crafted progressive rock symphony. When I listened to it for the first spin, several times the hairs on the back of my neck stood up as the music took my brain into "prog space"....You selected an unfortunate band to compare ELP with I think

richardh wrote: Keyspoet wrote: Is the music self-indulgent?  Yes, in fact, all great music must be to some extent, as any songwriter who is writing for the fans rather than to please him- or herself has already lost much of the passion needed to really shine.  Steven Wilson is a good example of this, as is Mariusz Duda, of the Porcupine Tree - influenced projects Riverside and Lunatic Soul.  A songwriter - or any kind of writer, really - has first and foremost to please him- or herself, and only then, after that is accomplished, to try to put it together in such a way as to please the fan base.  Otherwise it can only be derivative. Little indulgences, such as Are You Ready Eddie or Lucky Man, can serve the albums well, rather than detract, if only to serve as a radical change of pace.  I, for one, cannot imagine Jethro Tull's brilliant Passion Play absent The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles.  And Pictures at an Exhibition was a milestone, up to and including Nutrocker - what's the big deal about letting the band have a little fun?  It is their album, after all.  ;-)

, fun. A bit like with Zappa Mother's 1971 Fillmore East album. The build up and release with the fun performance of Happy Togther was superb timing. Fun, amongst all that serious comedy (sic.) Good album to go with mildly intoxicating refreshments (IMHO!) I thought Nut rocker was one of those perfect moments. The virtuosity is there but te context changed. After the serious Pictures comes a superbly played bit of fun with a certain sense of self irony. And ELP were a 1995 warm up act for Tull.

So there's nothing wrong with self indulgence, etc, it's just that certain media types imply there is something suspect.

Keyspoet wrote: Growing up in L.A., my first ELP album was Tarkus, and came by way of a record review club in existence at the time - they sent you two or three albums a month, you sent them your reviews, and they would send you more albums.  Most of the albums were unreleased generic presses in plain white cardboard sleeves, some good and some pretty abysmal, but occasionally they would send out a recently released album by a recognized artist, such as Tarkus.  Too bad I no longer have most of the albums.  ;-) Both of my parents were pianists, my father specializing in jazz and my mother in classical, and so I was blown away by the album since it had such strong jazz and classical influences.  I was already a fan of Greg Lake's voice, probably because of The Court of the Crimson King, and quickly became a huge fan of Keith Emerson, since I am also a synth junkie (another favorite album of the period was Switched on Bach by Walter /Wendy Carlos).  And Carl Palmer on drums was a masterstroke - driving, understated, or all out rocking, he ranks among the best. The problem with ELP in the early 70s is the same as that with Porcupine Tree and Steven Wilson's other projects today - the music has so many references, musical and otherwise, that it takes intelligence and effort to really get it fully, and the majority of listeners simply won't bother taking the time.  I often find it a rather accurate intelligence test when people "don't get" bands such as ELP, King Crimson or Porcupine Tree, as their comments often betray.  Then again, perhaps they simply have yet to really listen intently. Is the music self-indulgent?  Yes, in fact, all great music must be to some extent, as any songwriter who is writing for the fans rather than to please him- or herself has already lost much of the passion needed to really shine.  Steven Wilson is a good example of this, as is Mariusz Duda, of the Porcupine Tree - influenced projects Riverside and Lunatic Soul.  A songwriter - or any kind of writer, really - has first and foremost to please him- or herself, and only then, after that is accomplished, to try to put it together in such a way as to please the fan base.  Otherwise it can only be derivative. Little indulgences, such as Are You Ready Eddie or Lucky Man, can serve the albums well, rather than detract, if only to serve as a radical change of pace.  I, for one, cannot imagine Jethro Tull's brilliant Passion Play absent The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles.  And Pictures at an Exhibition was a milestone, up to and including Nutrocker - what's the big deal about letting the band have a little fun?  It is their album, after all.  ;-)  I am also a Yes fan, but although they put out a number of albums and pieces I absolutely love, I do not consider them to be in the same class musically speaking as ELP.  As arguably the first supergroup, ELP really were in a class by themselves, and it is too bad that they weren't able to overcome their differences sufficiently to keep it going.  Than again, that is only my wish as a fan, which speaks not at all to their own aspirations, then or now. I will say that, as uneven as ELP could be, I still consider them to be far superior to Transatlantic, to whom I was recently introduced through a friend.  Perhaps I haven't heard their best albums yet, but neither Stolt/Morse/Portnoy/Trewavas nor The Whirlwind have impressed me nearly as much as early ELP.  Yes, they are great musicians, and the music is easy to get into, but that is also part of its weakness - there simply doesn't seem to be as much substance here, and some of the heart seems to have gone missing as well.  I'll have to hear more of their music before I'm willing to write the band off, as I love Mike Portnoy's drums, and their recent concert video was a blast, but so far I am far less impressed than I expected to be.

Epignosis wrote: Brain Salad Surgery is yay Trilogy is okay Tarkus is first The debut is worst Pictures at an Exhibition is grand Almost everything else is bland

I nominate Epignosis as our Poet Laureate.

Tursake wrote: Blacksword wrote: For me personally, I dont rate ELP very highly for the following simple reasons: Lack of guitar, inadequately compensated for by the other instruments. They massacre classical music in a way which should be punishable in law! For me lack of guitar is just a nice change of pace, I'm getting tired of modern bands never using something as awesome as Hammond organs, and they certainly don't massacre classical music. They make it much more interesting, I can't imagine myself listening to the original of version of The Nutcracker, Nutrocker is way better

Edited by Henry Plainview - March 16 2010 at 01:11

Certif1ed wrote: Tursake wrote:   I can't imagine myself listening to the original of version of The Nutcracker, Nutrocker is way better    "Nutrocker" was originally by B Bumble and the Stingers in 1962, wasn't it?

Correct - Kim Fowley plays Tchaickovsky and manages a respectable draw.

Petrovsk Mizinski wrote: ELP  = Elephants Love Penis. or something like that

Growing up in L.A., my first ELP album was Tarkus, and came by way of a record review club in existence at the time - they sent you two or three albums a month, you sent them your reviews, and they would send you more albums.  Most of the albums were unreleased generic presses in plain white cardboard sleeves, some good and some pretty abysmal, but occasionally they would send out a recently released album by a recognized artist, such as Tarkus.  Too bad I no longer have most of the albums.  ;-)

Both of my parents were pianists, my father specializing in jazz and my mother in classical, and so I was blown away by the album since it had such strong jazz and classical influences.  I was already a fan of Greg Lake's voice, probably because of The Court of the Crimson King, and quickly became a huge fan of Keith Emerson, since I am also a synth junkie (another favorite album of the period was Switched on Bach by Walter /Wendy Carlos).  And Carl Palmer on drums was a masterstroke - driving, understated, or all out rocking, he ranks among the best.

The problem with ELP in the early 70s is the same as that with Porcupine Tree and Steven Wilson's other projects today - the music has so many references, musical and otherwise, that it takes intelligence and effort to really get it fully, and the majority of listeners simply won't bother taking the time.  I often find it a rather accurate intelligence test when people "don't get" bands such as ELP, King Crimson or Porcupine Tree, as their comments often betray.  Then again, perhaps they simply have yet to really listen intently.

Is the music self-indulgent?  Yes, in fact, all great music must be to some extent, as any songwriter who is writing for the fans rather than to please him- or herself has already lost much of the passion needed to really shine.  Steven Wilson is a good example of this, as is Mariusz Duda, of the Porcupine Tree - influenced projects Riverside and Lunatic Soul.  A songwriter - or any kind of writer, really - has first and foremost to please him- or herself, and only then, after that is accomplished, to try to put it together in such a way as to please the fan base.  Otherwise it can only be derivative.

Little indulgences, such as Are You Ready Eddie or Lucky Man, can serve the albums well, rather than detract, if only to serve as a radical change of pace.  I, for one, cannot imagine Jethro Tull's brilliant Passion Play absent The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles.  And Pictures at an Exhibition was a milestone, up to and including Nutrocker - what's the big deal about letting the band have a little fun?  It is their album, after all.  ;-) 

I am also a Yes fan, but although they put out a number of albums and pieces I absolutely love, I do not consider them to be in the same class musically speaking as ELP.  As arguably the first supergroup, ELP really were in a class by themselves, and it is too bad that they weren't able to overcome their differences sufficiently to keep it going.  Than again, that is only my wish as a fan, which speaks not at all to their own aspirations, then or now.

I will say that, as uneven as ELP could be, I still consider them to be far superior to Transatlantic, to whom I was recently introduced through a friend.  Perhaps I haven't heard their best albums yet, but neither Stolt/Morse/Portnoy/Trewavas nor The Whirlwind have impressed me nearly as much as early ELP.  Yes, they are great musicians, and the music is easy to get into, but that is also part of its weakness - there simply doesn't seem to be as much substance here, and some of the heart seems to have gone missing as well.  I'll have to hear more of their music before I'm willing to write the band off, as I love Mike Portnoy's drums, and their recent concert video was a blast, but so far I am far less impressed than I expected to be. 

himtroy wrote: I place Pictures at An Exhibition, Self Titled, and Tarkus (Song not album) pretty high up, the rest I don't really care for except a song or two off of Trilogy. And if we're going to bring up Egg....Egg at their worst is better than ELP at their best.  Except Egg was far too consistent to have a worst.

Tursake wrote:   I can't imagine myself listening to the original of version of The Nutcracker, Nutrocker is way better