What's wrong with ELP?

TODDLER wrote: . In music college there was a mentality about Carl Palmer being a great diverse drummer of amazing speed but, played in a rock band which was shameful. It was basically a jazz snob concept that developed when Carl Palmer turned up in the media playing wild drum solos. These people were part of a club. I couldn't believe how many anti-Carl Palmer musicians there were. These types of social outbreaks were at that period in time crucial to the image of ELP. All these examples that I give when anyalized, are of a percentage of groups that were for one reason or the other, anti-ELP. During the 70's when this type of behaviour was spreading a disease, it consisted mainly with musicians. For whatever reason? Jealousy maybe?

Snobbery knew no bounds. Even Leonard Bernstein used to wind Emerson up 'Oh, Keith's writing a Piano Concerto,' in sarky tone.

I think one of the problems is that most genres of music are supposed to do something that other genres cannot do. So when a rock band features stunning drumming, rock is only supposed to reflect teen angst, not be a vehicle for great musicianship. Put that man in his place, Rock is the only form of music where you can be criticised negatively for playing fantastically.

Jazz looks down on rock becuase most rock well, it is uneducated and probably technically inferior to most jazz. This is a bit snobby as both musics do what they ares supposed to. Jazz accepts (for the most part) musical progression. Rock only does so whenever it is fashionable (the pop side). I mean prog to punk - hip hop is hardly musical progression in terms of sophistication. But rock is not about musical sophistication so when this phenomena turns up there is a pile up of voices.

You may have borne witness to the Dream Theater posts on this site. If DT were less sophisticated there would not be such wondering if DT were prog rock vs straight metal. This is just an example not a prompt to extend that debate here btw.

Aaron Copeland liked the full treatment Palmer and Lake played of Fanfare (KE just played him the single version which he thought sucked - not adventurious enough. IMHO this was a great tune for the radio - wonder how it would um, fare now if released?

ELP were a huge concert draw. Vastly ambitious and played their hearts out. This may have contributed to Emerson's hand problems I wonder? Too much touring, the demands on him were that of a concert pianist and he had the thatrics. Of course if they had sat around "just playing" they would have been sl*gged off for that. You can't win. (Unless you like their music and can hear and listen to it.)

To answer the original question, there is nothing wrong with ELP, and people who have cited their huge influence on many bands of both the era and later are spot on.

The trouble with fandom is that it almost always, with a significant minority, descends into a who's better than who argument, which is pretty pointless given that this is all subjective anyway.

For my money, ELP simply did or do not give me as much pleasure as my favourite prog bands, and from the era, I always far preferred the output of bands such as Genesis, Yes, Floyd, Crimson, Tull & etc. That is not to say there is anything wrong with ELP, I just wasn't particularly keen on them. As for the accusation of being bombastic & overblown, this is the silly charge laid against virtually every prog act by a majority of journalists & critics since about 1977. I learned to ignore tosh such as that years ago.

Emerson was bashed plain and simple for the theatrics on stage. Which many great musicians follow this path like Ian Anderson but, sometimes later in life looking upon it as a foolish act and wish never to return to it. Quite like Peter Gabriel wishing not to re-live his past with Genesis. To observe the attitudes of the YES fan verses the ELP fan, which in the 70's was a disease that infested everybody it seemed, is quite ridiculous to even think about .......But in fact it is the reason for ELP bashings to rule the universe today. It's a mentality that developed over decades. When I listen to Beggars Opera, Rare Bird, and various other prog bands from the early 70's, I can plainly hear the most obvious influences of Keith Emerson with the Nice. Graham Field was an outstanding player but I don't think I was very fond of all the artists that emulated the Emerson style and sound. Emerson had such a huge impact on European musicians during that magical early 70's period. For the longest time, people tried endlessly to either play like him? or emulate his synth sounds and not so much his structure. The history of this is indeed fascinating to me due to how Emerson was followed and worshipped by European musicians. He was an icon to many young progressive musicians that hailed from the ranks of other prog bands. Especially in the early 70's Nice period.

Blacksword wrote: I think he was upper working class.. He was born in Perivale, London and went to grammar school. He studied piano, and apparently clarinet at the royal college of music, but didn't complete his education there.

Thanks for clarifying that Blacksword. Of course I should have realised that any attempt to decipher the British class system is both foolish and fraught with pitfalls.

Cactus Choir wrote: M27Barney wrote: Wakeman was middle class! - he had Piano lessons. So having piano lessons makes you a toff then? Fair enough. Perhaps I've just been fooled by Rick's Cockerney accent.

I think he was upper working class.. He was born in Perivale, London and went to grammar school. He studied piano, and apparently clarinet at the royal college of music, but didn't complete his education there.   

Edited by Blacksword - March 16 2010 at 10:59

Wakeman was middle class! - he had Piano lessons. The Likes of Peel and Anthony H. Wilson were both Oxford/Cambridge Graduates who wanted to appear cool (thus their affiliation with the new-wave in 1976/77) - Wilson claimed to have been at THAT gig at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester (I suspect that was a porky-pie). Appearently, when alone and relaxing, Wilson used to listen to mainstream Classical music....Music was just for money-making and his public image......

Cactus Choir wrote: The only reason I ever heard him give for not liking ELP was that he went to one of their concerts and thought it was "b*llocks" (shucks these DJs are so articulate). He also seemed particularly put out that the audience was full of  "middle class t*ssers" (surely The Nice's was as well?). Might have been a bit of self-loathing there as he was resolutely middle class himself of course (ex-Public school) despite his obscurely acquired working class scouse accent.

As much as I did like John Peel when I was a teenager, he was just another public school educated BBC bod, who desparately wanted the kids to like him. He was actually a big fan of Floyd, before they started selling too many records. He liked Tull too, prior to them progging up.

He seemed to live by the ethos that music was not valied, unless the artist had been raised in a sewer, and had dung for breakfast everyday. Peel should have taken note of the large numbers of 'middle class t**sers' attending Clash and Undertones gigs. Indeed, he should have taken note of the very comfortable backgrounds, the likes of Joe Strummer, J.Rotten and Pete Shelley had emerged from.

Cactus Choir wrote: uduwudu wrote: Deceased Music jock John Peel (normally so right) once described ELP as a waste of talent and electricity. Now he did have The Nice on his radio shows but I don't think ELP did BBC sessions. Not heard of any anyway. He once cold shouldered Ian Gillan, once Deep Purple found fame and fortune as,accordingt to Gillan, that any band that didn't need Peel type shows (anymore) were off his radar and were now irrelevant sell outs - or words to that effect. I wonder if this prejudice influenced his influential opinions on the easily influenced? He was a major figure in UK music but Peel was a queer bird. He also cold shouldered Jethro Tull, literally crossing the road to avoid them after they started getting some success. This after coming out with the statement "The Underground is like a woman that is endlessly pregnant but never has a baby. So sad" I saw a programme about the box of his favourite 50 singles that Peel carried around with him and Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack by the Nice was in there(!) He was a major champion of the group, but again when the mainstream beckoned he turned against them (or at least Emerson).

That was it. Ian Anderson, not Gillan. Got my Ians crossed. His (Peel's) attitude was odd. Must've have given Johnny Rotten his "I hate PF" T shirt after TDSOTM. Now there's a sell out for ya. In his terms anyway. Perhaps if every act turned up it's toes after being on his show then things would appear different. Clearly the publicity of quality music and the concomitant benefits was bad thing.

So if a band is successful on it's own artistic merits (Pink Floyd, Tull) that is bad, then being a dismal failure (commercially) is great.

He still failed to give a basis of reasoning. ie why he thought ELP were so inferior rather than that he did think so. And in his position it is his responsibility to back his opinion with some reason. This is adult rock, prog rock after all, not teenybopper land. Well, for the most part.

uduwudu wrote: Deceased Music jock John Peel (normally so right) once described ELP as a waste of talent and electricity. Now he did have The Nice on his radio shows but I don't think ELP did BBC sessions. Not heard of any anyway. He once cold shouldered Ian Gillan, once Deep Purple found fame and fortune as,accordingt to Gillan, that any band that didn't need Peel type shows (anymore) were off his radar and were now irrelevant sell outs - or words to that effect. I wonder if this prejudice influenced his influential opinions on the easily influenced?

He was a major figure in UK music but Peel was a queer bird. He also cold shouldered Jethro Tull, literally crossing the road to avoid them after they started getting some success. This after coming out with the statement "The Underground is like a woman that is endlessly pregnant but never has a baby. So sad"

I saw a programme about the box of his favourite 50 singles that Peel carried around with him and Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack by the Nice was in there(!) He was a major champion of the group, but again when the mainstream beckoned he turned against them (or at least Emerson).

There was talk that ELP would become ELP&H (Hendrix) at one time - Now that would have been pretty amazing.