What's wrong with ELP?

Certif1ed wrote:   jammun wrote: Now, guitar still reigns supreme.  Clapton, Hendrix, Beck & Page with the Yardbirds.  They get the press.  They're up there on stage, doin' the moves, playing the music.    Emerson is no idiot.  He's a young guy, wants to be a star.  He's gotta be thinking, why can't I get the press?  He's gotta be thinking, why can't I be the Hendrix of the Hammond organ?  Maybe rock my little L3 back and forth, maybe stick knives in the keys, put on a show.  He's gotta be thinking, rightly I believe, I'm the finest rock organist out here.  Why should I just sit on that bench and play?  If Hendrix can light his guitar on fire, if Townshend can smash his to oblivion, well why not reach.  Why let them get all the glory?    It'll get some press.  And lo, it was true.   There's some fairly persuasive argument from organ trio Clouds' camp that their early incarnation, 1-2-3 (who had residency at the Marquee during 1967) first brought the organ to the forefront, particularly with Billy Ritchie's habit of standing at the organ, and playing both it and the piano at the same time, seamlessly incorporating jazz, and not at all seamlessly incoporating Classical music - and allegory that Emerson only formed The Nice after seeing 1-2-3 perform. Before that, he played in P.P.Arnold's backing band and dreamed the dream.

Regarding Emerson's formative influences I remember him namechecking a guy called Don Shinn, a now (and probably then) obscure UK organist who I think used to play at The Marquee. Described as a strange sort of Bertie Wooster character, he used to drink whisky from a spoon and would unscrew the back of the organ and mess about with the electronics to get weird sounds, much to the amusement of the crowd. Emerson said even though people were laughing it was obvious he was getting their attention.

Keyspoet wrote: ***** The problem with ELP is that their albums are very uneven. They have many five star songs, but there's so much garbage cluttering up the rest of the albums that it's hard to rate any of them five stars. If the second have of Tarkus was half as good as the first, I suspect it would be near the top of the PA charts.***** Actually, I thought that the second half of Tarkus ranked among their most interesting work, from a standpoint of musicianship, though certainly less readily accessible and potentially radio-friendly than the first half.  Once again, they were a band requiring the full attention of their listeners, as theirs certainly was never what could be considered "background music," and those using it as such missed a great deal. Than again, all of this ranking and de-ranking is purely subjective at best.

Tarkus has always felt like the two halfs of two totally different albums.All the production tricks are in evidence on side one yet side two is raw and almost untreated. I put this down to the band not being sure about how the public and critics would react  to the Tarkus suite.They always had the more 'basic' style of side two to fall back on if they needed to. The following albums Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery showed more self assurance as could be expected once these initial concerns were erased.

***** The problem with ELP is that their albums are very uneven. They have many five star songs, but there's so much garbage cluttering up the rest of the albums that it's hard to rate any of them five stars. If the second have of Tarkus was half as good as the first, I suspect it would be near the top of the PA charts.***** Actually, I thought that the second half of Tarkus ranked among their most interesting work, from a standpoint of musicianship, though certainly less readily accessible and potentially radio-friendly than the first half.  Once again, they were a band requiring the full attention of their listeners, as theirs certainly was never what could be considered "background music," and those using it as such missed a great deal. Than again, all of this ranking and de-ranking is purely subjective at best.

Certif1ed wrote:   The organ had popularity in jazz circles, didn't it?   Jimmy Smith is first to spring to mind, Booker T and the MGs and Wynder K Frogg.   In Blues rock, Graham Bond's ORGANisation surely made some impact - I've seen (albeit rather cheesey) TV clips of them predating 1965.   I know you're not trying to be completist - but these names are big... and I've probably missed loads!

uduwudu wrote:

You mention that Leonard Bernstein used to wind up Emerson. I expect you are aware of the anecdote in Emersons autobiography 'Pictures At An Exhibitionist' when Bernstein was invited into the studio to listen to ELP's then new recording 'Pirates' of which Emerson was justifiably proud of.Bernstein as usual was not impressed. Greg Lake was also there and Bernstein started comparing himself to Beethoven (or some major classical composer) .Not sure of the exact words but Lake chimed in with ''Don't worry Lenny no one is going to confuse your music with Beethoven''. Emerson nearly died on the spot[/QUOTE]

I think I might've read that - quoted somewhere anyway, ELP list? Hilarious, I love things like that!
[/QUOTE] That interaction with Bernstein is a scream-though a very good conductor, Bernstein's own music was just awfull-maybe he had compared his own music to that of Mahler? Now, that would be really hilarious!

Blacksword wrote: Cactus Choir wrote: M27Barney wrote: Wakeman was middle class! - he had Piano lessons. So having piano lessons makes you a toff then? Fair enough. Perhaps I've just been fooled by Rick's Cockerney accent. I think he was upper working class.. He was born in Perivale, London and went to grammar school. He studied piano, and apparently clarinet at the royal college of music, but didn't complete his education there.

uduwudu wrote: TODDLER wrote: . In music college there was a mentality about Carl Palmer being a great diverse drummer of amazing speed but, played in a rock band which was shameful. It was basically a jazz snob concept that developed when Carl Palmer turned up in the media playing wild drum solos. These people were part of a club. I couldn't believe how many anti-Carl Palmer musicians there were. These types of social outbreaks were at that period in time crucial to the image of ELP. All these examples that I give when anyalized, are of a percentage of groups that were for one reason or the other, anti-ELP. During the 70's when this type of behaviour was spreading a disease, it consisted mainly with musicians. For whatever reason? Jealousy maybe?  Snobbery knew no bounds. Even Leonard Bernstein used to wind Emerson up 'Oh, Keith's writing a Piano Concerto,' in sarky tone. I think one of the problems is that most genres of music are supposed to do something that other genres cannot do. So when a rock band features stunning drumming, rock is only supposed to reflect teen angst, not be a vehicle for great musicianship. Put that man in his place, Rock is the only form of music where you can be criticised negatively for playing fantastically. Jazz looks down on rock becuase most rock well, it is uneducated and probably technically inferior to most jazz. This is a bit snobby as both musics do what they ares supposed to. Jazz accepts (for the most part) musical progression. Rock only does so whenever it is fashionable (the pop side). I mean prog to punk - hip hop is hardly musical progression in terms of sophistication. But rock is not about musical sophistication so when this phenomena turns up there is a pile up of voices. You may have borne witness to the Dream Theater posts on this site. If DT were less sophisticated there would not be such wondering if DT were prog rock vs straight metal. This is just an example not a prompt to extend that debate here btw. Aaron Copeland liked the full treatment Palmer and Lake played of Fanfare (KE just played him the single version which he thought sucked - not adventurious enough. IMHO this was a great tune for the radio - wonder how it would um, fare now if released? ELP were a huge concert draw. Vastly ambitious and played their hearts out. This may have contributed to Emerson's hand problems I wonder? Too much touring, the demands on him were that of a concert pianist and he had the thatrics. Of course if they had sat around "just playing" they would have been sl*gged off for that. You can't win. (Unless you like their music and can hear and listen to it.)

You mention that Leonard Bernstein used to wind up Emerson. I expect you are aware of the anecdote in Emersons autobiography 'Pictures At An Exhibitionist' when Bernstein was invited into the studio to listen to ELP's then new recording 'Pirates' of which Emerson was justifiably proud of.Bernstein as usual was not impressed. Greg Lake was also there and Bernstein started comparing himself to Beethoven (or some major classical composer) .Not sure of the exact words but Lake chimed in with ''Don't worry Lenny no one is going to confuse your music with Beethoven''. Emerson nearly died on the spot

ELP is like Genesis to me. I loved both bands in the 70's as a young guy but today being 2010 and me being considerably older; both bands have lost their collective appeal to me. Oh, I still listen as I prefer random play these days to specific play. I guess the lack of guitar and Emerson's disdain for the Mellotron are a couple of reasons but having said that, ELP still appeals to me as a band I like to listen to now and again.

Okay, I've had a few beers and feel compelled to defend ELP.  First, let's put rock and roll keyboards into perspective.

Edited by jammun - March 16 2010 at 22:13

TODDLER wrote: Which many great musicians follow this path like Ian Anderson but, sometimes later in life looking upon it as a foolish act and wish never to return to it.