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Moogtron III 
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Points: 10616
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 Posted: February 10 2014 at 14:32 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
1.- The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that doesn't receive tithe (10% of the salary of it's members)
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Great defense, Ivan, but just one tiny detail where I don't agree. The above quoted statement is a dangerous statement to make.  There are many Christian churches in the world, and you don't know the situation of all of them. In Protestant Churches (the churches where I have first hand information) there are many denominations where there isn't tithe. The situation of the different denominations sometimes differs per country too. |
You are right, but lets be honest, most of the churches that don't tithe are catholics (Roman, Orthodox and Anglicans)
I've been checking
1.- All Evangelical churches receive compulsory tithe 2.- All Pentecostal Churches receive compulsory tithe 3.- Lutherans and Presbyterians accept tithe, but it's not compulsory 4.- Baptists receive tithe and it's compulsory 5.- Almost all Protestant churches accept tithe, but the percentage varies. 6.- Jehovah Witness don't tithe formally, but they aren't really Christians (They don't believe Christ is God), and a great percentage of the JW inherit all their properties to their church. 7.- Orthodox don't tithe, but as you know they are Catholics 8.- Anglicans don't tithe, but they are also Catholics 9.- Oriental Churches don't tithe, but they joined the Roman catholic Church.
There are a few small protestant churches that don't tithe because the Bible says that the tithe is exclusively of agriculture products and they aren't allowed to receive money.
Iván |
Okay, I admit, I was being a bit too literal here. In the global sense you are right. Tithing is literally giving tenths, but tithing in the broader sense of the word is a different thing, the percentage varies as you say, I was being a literalist. Mind you, they didn't teach me that in the law school that I attended, it's a personal trait I have to fight against 
Also, I speak from my own experience, and I admit that it is mainly limited to the Netherlands (my country of birth) and Belgium (where I live and work for the past ten years). Small countries in the world, of course. In Belgium we have a unique situation, that all the pastors of the recognized religions (Roman-Catholic church, Protestant Church, Anglican church, Orthodox Church, Judaism and islam) are being payed by the federal state (me too) and the buildings are being subsidized by the local governments (cities). In the Netherlands, it's a total different thing. Many protestant churches have appointed voluntary contributions, which is not unlike tithing, I admit. Still, many, many people don't tithe, and it is not as strict as in many evangelical and pentecostal churches, where it is often seen as a biblical obligation.
But your point is taken, I see what you mean.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 14:13 |
Moogtron III wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
1.- The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that doesn't receive tithe (10% of the salary of it's members)
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Great defense, Ivan, but just one tiny detail where I don't agree. The above quoted statement is a dangerous statement to make. There are many Christian churches in the world, and you don't know the situation of all of them. In Protestant Churches (the churches where I have first hand information) there are many denominations where there isn't tithe. The situation of the different denominations sometimes differs per country too. |
You are right, but lets be honest, most of the churches that don't tithe are catholics (Roman, Orthodox and Anglicans)
I've been checking
1.- All Evangelical churches receive compulsory tithe 2.- All Pentecostal Churches receive compulsory tithe 3.- Lutherans and Presbyterians accept tithe, but it's not compulsory 4.- Baptists receive tithe and it's compulsory 5.- Almost all Protestant churches accept tithe, but the percentage varies. 6.- Jehovah Witness don't tithe formally, but they aren't really Christians (They don't believe Christ is God), and a great percentage of the JW inherit all their properties to their church. 7.- Orthodox don't tithe, but as you know they are Catholics 8.- Anglicans don't tithe, but they are also Catholics 9.- Oriental Churches don't tithe, but they joined the Roman catholic Church.
There are a few small protestant churches that don't tithe because the Bible says that the tithe is exclusively of agriculture products and they aren't allowed to receive money.
Iván
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Moogtron III
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Location: Belgium
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Points: 10616
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 13:37 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
1.- The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that doesn't receive tithe (10% of the salary of it's members)
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Great defense, Ivan, but just one tiny detail where I don't agree. The above quoted statement is a dangerous statement to make. There are many Christian churches in the world, and you don't know the situation of all of them. In Protestant Churches (the churches where I have first hand information) there are many denominations where there isn't tithe. The situation of the different denominations sometimes differs per country too.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 12:44 |
The T wrote:
And where does it come from Ivan? |
In first place, you must forget the myth about the CATHOLIC WEALTH
| He then points out the often ignored fact that the yearly budget for operating the Vatican is less than $300 million. He contrasts this with Harvard University (which he labels as “the Vatican of elite secular opinion”) whose annual budget is $3.7 billion. Allen points out further that the patrimony (or endowment) of the Vatican is about $1 billion. Harvard, on the other hand, as a whopping $30.7 billion endowment. Allen concedes that the Vatican bank is in charge of the equivalent of over $6 billion, but then points out how the majority of that money is not actually the Vatican’s, and thus the Vatican would not be at liberty to use most of that amount for any purpose whatsoever.
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The money comes from:
1.- The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that doesn't receive tithe (10% of the salary of it's members) 2.- Own Resources: Catholic Church has properties in Rome that are rented, laboratories, private hospitals (That finance the free ones), the Vatican Observatory, etc. 3.- Private Universities as Notre Dame pay a small percentage of their incomes to the church to be allowed to use the name of Pontificial. 4.- Donations: That give tax exemption 5.- Istituto per le Opere di Religione (Vatican Bank that is not a bank because does not use deposits to lend money and does not issue securities for resale or other financial products). 6.- Treaties with states 7.- The fact that priests and nuns who work in Catholic institutions dopn't have a salary.
Just think in this, Jehovah Witness and Mormons have a patrimony of about 25 billion dollars, and they don't donate 1% of what the catholic Church donates.
Iván
PS: The artistic patrimony CAN'T BE SOLD.
| Some confusion exists about the Vatican property, relics, artwork, etc., itself. Shouldn’t the Vatican just sell St. Peter’s Basilica, Vatican City, all of its religious patrimony? First of all, I don’t think it should, but even if it should, it can’t.
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| Vatican City as its own independent nation state was created through a concordat with Italy in 1929 (the Lateran Concordat), which made Vatican City the smallest territorial state in the world. Article 18 of that concordat states the following: “The artistic and scientific treasures existing within the Vatican City and the Lateran Palace shall remain open to scholars and visitors, although the Holy See shall be free to regulate the admission of the public thereto” |
The Holy See would automatically violate its right to be sovereign if it overstepped these bounds. That is, since the property, art, etc., are seen to be the patrimony of all of Europe, and the Italian state obviously has concern for it, Italy would be well within its legal rights to take the Vatican back should the pope ever try to sell the Vatican property or artistic (etc.) patrimony (each part of which is officially labeled as worth one euro each)—which the pope cannot legally do.
http://caritasetveritas.com/2013/03/the-myth-of-vatican-wealth-on-helping-the-poor/
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So don't count artistic property as patrimony, because it can't be sold.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 10 2014 at 12:54
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Moogtron III
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Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
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Points: 10616
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 12:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The educational and health system of most countrioes of the world would collapse in 6 months without the support of the Church.
25% of AIDS patients in the planet who receive free anti-retrovirals would die in a year.
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True, I saw that with my own eyes, for instance, in different African countries. Hospitals, schools, orphanages and an enormous attention for HIV/AIDS projects.
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The T
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 11:46 |
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And where does it come from Ivan?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 11:34 |
infocat wrote:
So that's where the money goes? |
This reveals absolute ignorance of how the system works.
1.- The Cathedral is property of the Peruvian Government, the Church only administrates it. 2.- The art pieces are registered in the Instituto Nacional de Cultura and can't be sold or negotiated because they are patrimony of Peru as Machu Pichu. 3.- The Museum pays the expenses of the Cathedral by far. 4.- Tourism benefices the city of Lima, not only the Church.
Now, the money of the Church goes here
| África The Church maintains in this continent 12.496 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
33.263 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
9.838 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.074 Hospitales (Hospitals)
5.373 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
186 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
753 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired) 979 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
1.997 Jardines de infancia (Education for infant centers)
1.590 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
2.947 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
1.279 Otras instituciones (Other institutions)
América The Church maintains in this continent 15.788 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
22.562 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
11.053 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.669 Hospitales (Hospitals)
5.663 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
38 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
3.839 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
2.463 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
3.715 Jardines de infancia (Education for infant centers)
4.827 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
13.652 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
4.239 Otras instituciones (Other institutions) Asia The Church maintains in this continent 13.683 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
15.698 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
9.298 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.102 Hospitales (Hospitals)
3.532 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
293 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
2.095 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
3.367 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
3.211 Jardines de infancia (Education for infant centers)
969 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
5.379 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
1.870 Otras instituciones (Other institutions) Europe The Church maintains in this continent 23.602 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
17.222 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
10.338 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.363 Hospitales (Hospitals)
2.947 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
3 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
8.271 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
2.480 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
2.524 Jardines de infancia (Orphan houses)
5.919 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
10.576 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
2.761 Otras instituciones (Other institutions) Australia The Church maintains in this continent 1.695 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
2.949 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
683 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
170 Hospitales (Hospitals)
573 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
1 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
490 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
87 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
108 Jardines de infancia (Orphan houses)
294 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
592 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education) 207 Otras instituciones (Other institutions)
Anuario Estadístico de la Iglesia» actualizado al 31 de diciembre de 2007. Catholic Church Year Book, December 31, 2007 |
The educational and health system of most countrioes of the world would collapse in 6 months without the support of the Church.
25% of AIDS patients in the planet who receive free anti-retrovirals would die in a year.
CARITAS is the biggest and most trusted charity organization in the world
| The full membership list of Caritas organisations includes: Africa 45 national agencies in Sub-Saharan Africa
Egypt - (part of MENA regional agency Caritas MONA) Kenya - Caritas Nairobi- operated by the Archdiocese of Nairobi
Asia 23 national agencies including:
Philippines - Caritas Manila Hong Kong - Caritas Hong Kong operated by the Catholic Diocese of Hong Kong Japan - Caritas Japan Nepal- [2] Indonesia - Caritas Indonesia - KARINA Indonesia - Caritas Bandung - operated by the Diocese of Bandung Indonesia - Cordia Caritas Medan - operated by Archdiocese of Medan Indonesia - Caritas Keuskupan Sibolga - operated by Roman Catholic Diocese of Sibolga Indonesia - Caritas Keuskupan Agung Semarang - KARINA KAS - operated by Archdiocese of Semarang Indonesia - Caritas Tanjungkarang - operated by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tanjungkarang India - [3] Korea - Caritas Korea Cambodia - Caritas Cambodia Vietnam - Caritas Việt Nam (26 members of the diocesan) Macau - Caritas Macau MENA regional agency Caritas MONA with 17 national agencies including: Cyprus Jordan - Caritas Jordan Lebanon - Caritas Liban Syria
Europe Caritas Europa with 48 national agencies including:
Armenia- Armenian Caritas Austria - Caritas Osterreich Belgium - Caritas Catholica Belgica Bosnia and Herzegovina Serbia - Caritas Republic of Serbia Croatia Denmark - Caritas Danmark England and Wales - where there are two Caritas agencies: CAFOD and Caritas - Social Action Finland - Suomen Caritas ry France - where the Caritas agency is Secours catholique Germany - Caritas International Greece - Κάριτας Ελλάς Hungary - Katolikus Karitász Ireland - where the Caritas agency is Trócaire Italy - Caritas Italiana Lithuania - Caritas Lithuania Luxembourg - Caritas Luxembourg Malta - Caritas Malta Moldova, Republic of - Caritas Moldova Netherlands - where the Caritas agency is CORDAID Norway - Caritas Norge Poland - Caritas Polska Portugal - Caritas Portugal - Caritas Portuguesa Romania - Confederatia Caritas Romania Russia - Caritas in the European Part of Russia Scotland - where the Caritas agency is SCIAF Slovenia - Slovenska Karitas Spain - Cáritas Espańola Sweden - Caritas Sverige Switzerland - Caritas Switzerland Ukraine - Карітас України
North America, Central America and the Caribbean
Antillas Canada - Development and Peace (Caritas Canada) Costa Rica Cuba Dominican Republic El Salvador Guatemala - Caritas Guatemala Haiti Honduras Mexico - Caritas Mexico Nicaragua Panamá Puerto Rico United States - Catholic Relief Services, Catholic Charities USA, Caritas USA
Oceania 6 regional agencies, including:
Australia - Caritas Australia New Zealand - Caritas Aotearoa New Zealand Papua New Guinea - Caritas PNG
South America
Argentina - Caritas Argentina Bolivia Brasil - Caritas Brasil Chile Colombia Ecuador Perú - Cáritas Perú Uruguay Venezuela |
That's where the money goes.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 10 2014 at 11:35
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AlexDOM
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 09:52 |
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1 Samuel 15
Controversial Chapter... maybe... Any thoughts?
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Ambient Hurricanes
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 08:27 |
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Wonderful pics, Ivan. Would love to visit there someday. I'm lucky enough to live in St.Louis where we have the beautiful Cathedral Basilica; I have been there a few times (I actually attended mass there twice) and it's absolutely stunning.
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Finnforest
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 04:56 |
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Edited by Finnforest - February 10 2014 at 06:10
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Moogtron III
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 04:36 |
Beautiful pictures both of Montreal and Lima. The outside of the Lima cathedral is stunning too. Infocat does have a point, but the possibility exists that also quite a lot of money goes into helping people too. I get the impression that's what's happening in the Roman-Catholic Church in Belgium nowadays, maybe also in other countries. As for the splendour in Roman Catholic churches: it does have a function: it's visual language. The beauty and the grandeur, and the images, they point towards another, transcendental, world.
Now I'm a Protestant pastor, and last weeks I had schoolclasses coming to visit my church. Belgium is mainly a Roman Catholic country, and we protestants are a small minority (1% of the population). The church building of my parish is mainly a small hall with a low ceiling, next to a shop, in a commercial zone. We have almost no images, and a table instead of an altar. Typically protestant, going back to the iconoclasm of the 16th century. One of the teenagers asked me: don't you think it's too sober looking in your church? I said I had to agree: I think our protestant tradition took it too far, taking all of the imagery out of the churches.
Going to a new parish in a few months time, one which thinks ecumene with the Roman Catholic Church is important. Haven't seen the Roman Catholic church in my new city of residence yet. Hoping I might lead a church service once in one of those beautiful Roman Catholic Churches. 
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infocat
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 00:30 |
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So that's where the money goes?
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--
Frank Swarbrick
Belief is not Truth.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 00:28 |
Beautiful photos, here are some of the Lima Cathedral
It has different altars:
Plus a Chapel (Iglesia del Sagrario, part of the complex)
And of course the Religious Art Museum
It took me a couple of days to see it all
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Finnforest
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Posted: February 09 2014 at 18:59 |
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Edited by Finnforest - February 10 2014 at 06:12
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Finnforest
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Posted: February 02 2014 at 18:17 |
Jim, that is excellent news about your Sis and Unc!!!  Hope things keep moving in the right direction.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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AEProgman
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Posted: February 02 2014 at 13:20 |
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⬆
So true. As the saying goes, it is darkest before the dawn.
Update on my previous prayer requests. My sister had the large lump removed from her throat and appears to be benign, but final analysis still to come. But looks good for now. My uncle is holding his own in rehab from the stroke.
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Finnforest
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Posted: February 02 2014 at 10:19 |
4th Sunday. O ye of little faith. As He rebuked his disciples for waking him on the dire sea, we are reminded not to lose faith even in our darkest hour. 
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Ambient Hurricanes
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Posted: January 25 2014 at 19:21 |
Finnforest wrote:
Jacob, nice blog! I will have to pop in once in a while and check it out.
And your Boxer is quite a good lookin' dog too |
Moogtron III wrote:
Yes, good job, that blog, Ambient Hurricanes. Some pretty deep going articles.
Preaching tomorrow on the subject of "worship" myself. Taking the story of John 4, with Jesus' encounter with the Samaritan woman at the well as a starting point, I explain the Hebrew and Greek words for worship: shachah and proskuneo, both meaning submission (to God, of course). The latter word, proskuneo, is particularly interesting, because etymologically it has to with the dog licking the hand of his master (pros = towards, and kunos = dog) In some cultures it was (and maybe) is usual to kiss somebody's hand as an act of submission. I even saw it in the Godfather movies. Worship is often identified with slow songs, but the Biblical word means submission,in quite a strong way. Always interesting to delve deeper in the original languages of the Bible.
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Thanks to both of you.
That sounds quite interesting, Marcel, casts a lot of light on our relationship with God and what true worship really is.
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Moogtron III
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Posted: January 25 2014 at 15:51 |
^ Nice drawing. It's particularly interesting that quite some of the wedding guests don't pay any attention at the miracle. The miraculous and everyday life come together.
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Finnforest
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Posted: January 25 2014 at 15:32 |
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Edited by Finnforest - February 10 2014 at 06:13
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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