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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2016 at 00:08
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Atkingani Atkingani wrote:

Since it's not a choice of persons (politicians) where a simple majority is needed but instead a choice of government policy then a qualified majority should be needed IMO. At least 60% of the voters witha turnout of 70% minimum, maybe more.


Sort of what I proposed too in the other thread on whether democracy works. Simple majority is not adequate to represent what the people at large want in this case. 

Yeah, it does feel kinda weird that an action of this gravity, with such potential implications, can be decided by 52% of the population. 
I get that's democracy but yeah does seem like maybe something this massive should be more than a simple majority vote. 


How else would you do it? A minority? A panel of "experts"? A consensus of government? A tyranny? A measure of applause at gigs? By visiting the Sybil? By emptying your bollocks and seeing how far it flows after a damned good play?

Seriously, I really do wonder sometimes.

If a referendum is called, however stupidly, and this one was the most massive shot in the foot in modern British history, the only way you can measure it is by a majority of voters. Whether you like the result, or not.

Was mainly just thinking outloud, ya know the theoretical sh*t without any realistic basis that we can do on the internet because we can. 
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 20:40
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I understand that the person who created the petition (currently at 3,391,020 signatures) was Leave supporter who thought the Remain would win by a small majority. LOL

More amusingly, Nigel Fartrage said back in May: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it." LOLLOL

LOL  Oh dear, this is a good old fashioned farce then.  And if that's what he said, then a backpedal looks likely.  If even the Leave voters don't REALLY want to leave the UK, how hard is it going to be to get them to disregard the referendum?
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Points: 13228 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 20:34
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

I've read on the Internet that there might actually be a certain ethnoreligious group in the Middle East, let's call them group 1 (one), who are traditionally good with money and consequently in control of everything, and that they are deliberately driving another group, one that likes to blow up stuff, group 2 (two), to blow up stuff in Western countries so that the allies of group 1 in America and possibly in Russia get an excuse to blow up stuff in every country in the Middle East except the one inhabited by group 1, so that the Middle East as a whole will eventually be easier for group 1 to conquer. Shocked

At first I was gonna ignore this as classic paranoia but you read it on the Internet so I checked and sure enough there it was.

Oh, I'm not sure David. After all, as President Abraham Lincoln once so eloquently stated: "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it.” Wink


Edited by The Dark Elf - June 26 2016 at 20:34
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Points: 65606 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 20:27
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

I've read on the Internet that there might actually be a certain ethnoreligious group in the Middle East, let's call them group 1 (one), who are traditionally good with money and consequently in control of everything, and that they are deliberately driving another group, one that likes to blow up stuff, group 2 (two), to blow up stuff in Western countries so that the allies of group 1 in America and possibly in Russia get an excuse to blow up stuff in every country in the Middle East except the one inhabited by group 1, so that the Middle East as a whole will eventually be easier for group 1 to conquer. Shocked

At first I was gonna ignore this as classic paranoia but you read it on the Internet so I checked and sure enough there it was.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Points: 37233 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 19:51
Britain leaving the EU is not in my best interests, but I support the results of the referendum at this time. It's hard to say what the long-term ramifications will be. Maybe one might argue that I've spent too much time reading rags such as The Spectator.
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Points: 15344 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 19:40
Go independent Britain! As a colonizing entity of the world, i am truly hopeful that the UK people have taken their advantage on the world's stage and finally created a platform that will create a sanity for the other word's nations to emulate. WOO HOO
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 19:10
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Recently regarding the BREXIT vote a famous American political humorist said.....
"48% voted for Sense and Sensibility and 52 % voted for Pride and Prejudice".
 
 
Wink
 
I think Beardfish is more appropriate then Austen Stern Smile:
 
48% voted for Comfortzone and 52% voted for The Sane Day.
 
I'm an American so for me it's a moot point but it's interesting that those that voted to leave were the old folks ...over 50....and the younger people  voted to stay.....interesting indeed.
What do the Brits think about that...?
52% of them probably think that "young'uns don't know squat 'bout nothin' thanks to EU laws and immigrunts".
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Points: 1127 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 16:05
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I'm an American so for me it's a moot point but it's interesting that those that voted to leave were the old folks ...over 50....and the younger people  voted to stay.....interesting indeed.
What do the Brits think about that...?


Surprising indeed, as I tend to think that this would be the opposite in most other European countries...
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Points: 20660 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 15:06
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Recently regarding the BREXIT vote a famous American political humorist said.....
"48% voted for Sense and Sensibility and 52 % voted for Pride and Prejudice".
 
 
Wink
 
I think Beardfish is more appropriate then Austen Stern Smile:
 
48% voted for Comfortzone and 52% voted for The Sane Day.
 
I'm an American so for me it's a moot point but it's interesting that those that voted to leave were the old folks ...over 50....and the younger people  voted to stay.....interesting indeed.
What do the Brits think about that...?
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 24638 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 14:21
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Recently regarding the BREXIT vote a famous American political humorist said.....
"48% voted for Sense and Sensibility and 52 % voted for Pride and Prejudice".
 
 
Wink
 
I think Beardfish is more appropriate then Austen Stern Smile:
 
48% voted for Comfortzone and 52% voted for The Sane Day.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 13:25
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

That is the pretty much the numbers used on the petition for a 2nd Referendum that currently has 1,753,217 signatures:

"We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the remain or leave vote is less than 60% based a turnout less than 75% there should be another referendum."

...Looks like everyone has signed the wrong petition to me as this cannot be applied retroactively. For this to be of any use they should have created and signed it 6 months ago. Some people simply haven't got a clue.

Oh I agree completely.  This would be a case of locking the stable door after the horse has been bolted.  Besides which may possibly fuel more resentment of London.  "Didn't turn up to vote and now they want to disobey the referendum".  I don't know for what reason exactly but it looks like people underestimated the possibility of a leave vote.  They didn't, as I pointed out earlier, factor in how voter turnout works - the side that wants out will be more particular about voting than the one that only wants status quo.
I understand that the person who created the petition (currently at 3,391,020 signatures) was Leave supporter who thought the Remain would win by a small majority. LOL

More amusingly, Nigel Fartrage said back in May: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it." LOLLOL
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Points: 13228 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 13:25
^ Now that is funny.
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Points: 20660 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 12:55
Recently regarding the BREXIT vote a famous American political humorist said.....
"48% voted for Sense and Sensibility and 52 % voted for Pride and Prejudice".
 
 
Wink
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 07:53
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

There are moments now and again that strictly adhering to the rules could have desastrous consequences, and in this case I believe that repeating the referendum would probably not be political suicide but it could actually save the present government. Perhaps it could be the only way that the present government could stay in power, even if only marginally.

Abiding by the referendum would probably force the economy into depression, if not worse, and this will cost the Tories the next election. I find it possible that giving it the right spin, the conservatives might negate the referendum and be seen as the saviours from certain catastrophe. As I said: given the right spin.


It would take a referendum by London to leave UK.  They won't care about Scotland or N Ireland so much (Scotland basically means pesky Labour constituencies gone from the Tory perspective) but if London goes, it will bring down the British economy with it.  Who will JLR sell their big fat UVs to if UK leaves EU and London in turn leaves UK?  It was suggested on either Friday or Saturday that a group is working on exactly such a proposal.  

On that note, I just want to add to Dean's point that as an outsider I am not quarreling with the result and am completely neutral about either side because it's Britain's choice to make.  I am just saying requiring a 2/3rd majority MAY, emphasis on MAY, have resulted in a less fractious outcome.  With that told, there is destiny's hand in all of this and if either of UK or EU or both is meant to break up, so shall it be.  If it isn't, they will find a way to hold together.


Edited by rogerthat - June 26 2016 at 07:54
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Points: 2720 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 06:10

There are moments now and again that strictly adhering to the rules could have desastrous consequences, and in this case I believe that repeating the referendum would probably not be political suicide but it could actually save the present government. Perhaps it could be the only way that the present government could stay in power, even if only marginally.

Abiding by the referendum would probably force the economy into depression, if not worse, and this will cost the Tories the next election. I find it possible that giving it the right spin, the conservatives might negate the referendum and be seen as the saviours from certain catastrophe. As I said: given the right spin.

It sounds better than: “Yep, we plunged the country into chaos, but we’re comfortable in the knowledge that we did it by the rules.”

Now, as this would place severe strain on the legal system, a workaround without excessive fallout would have to be found, and the present partition would be the ideal way out.

The possible ramifications on the legal system would have to be considered and dealt with later, but when has bending the rules and a good old cover-up been a problem for any government fighting for re-election?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 05:51
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


I will also resist commenting in detail on the delicious irony of a committed agnostic, and veteran of many threads discussing such issues on PA, using the Papal electoral system as an example to support his arguments here.
I am a self-confessed atheist, I am not committed to any cause as that would entail arguing against another person's beliefs (which I never actually do), I merely voice and defend my personal opinion on the subject. I don't promote or preach atheism, nor do I attack theism or those who preach it.

I only use the papal electoral system as an illustration of how supermajorities are used in practice. There is no irony (or sarcasm) in making a factual observation and using it as an example. I could have gone on to observe that it sometimes takes more than one vote to reach a verdict there, but I didn't.

I dislike "first-past-the-post" voting but I accept losing that particular referendum on a simple majority, and as I said, I would have lost that on a supermajority too.

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:


I know that there are a lot of people unhappy with the result, but a majority of those voting voted to come out, and I reckon most folk in this country would accept that this was a democratic mandate, even if they are unhappy with said mandate.
And if we voted again today and then again tomorrow, neither of which can you predict from the outcome of this one, then we'd have three different results. You previously called this a clear majority and are now calling it a mandate - it is neither of those. The referendum result is not a mandate since it is not legally binding on Parliament to accept it, it is merely an approval to act. It would be political suicide for the government to go against the referendum result and even I would object to such a move. We can only not accept the result if a different rule-set was agreed before we voted but I have already made that point in this thread. 

You asked "How else would you do it?" because you misread the exchange of posts between Guigo, Matan and Brian, I merely itemised the alternatives to the "simple majority" they were questioning.

I don't favour or support any single system over another as such (be that simple, absolute majority or super majorities): the only thing I support is the idea that once the rules are set we abide by its outcome. Whether a simple majority was the ideal one for a vote such as this I have my doubts and even that would be irrelevant if this had been a clear majority, which it isn't. 

I don't like curry so when my mates vote to go for a curry I cannot go with the majority because there is nothing there for me to eat. I have a choice of whether to accept the result or not. When my wife wants to go to the cinema and the choice is rom-com or sci-fi I have to endure Hugh Grant and Colin Firth fighting over Renée Zellweger without lightsabres because well, we saw Battle Star Trek Wars last time so it's her turn to choose. This result is in neither category - I have no choice but to watch The UK and the EU fight over an acrimonious separation and then live with the consequences. That is not just an acceptance of the result, that is also a resignation that I have no choice now the vote has been cast. But as I said, and will continue to say, you need us 48-percenters to make this work for you because you cannot do it on your own so stop berating us for not laying down and quietly accepting the result. If you want irony then I find it ironic that the sensible Remain debate only arose after the vote was cast and the realisation of what a Leave vote actually entails. Points that I raised on FB and elsewhere (including some of those I listed in the OP) before the vote are now being discussed.



Edited by Dean - June 26 2016 at 06:10
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Points: 67452 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 05:34
I've read on the Internet that there might actually be a certain ethnoreligious group in the Middle East, let's call them group 1 (one), who are traditionally good with money and consequently in control of everything, and that they are deliberately driving another group, one that likes to blow up stuff, group 2 (two), to blow up stuff in Western countries so that the allies of group 1 in America and possibly in Russia get an excuse to blow up stuff in every country in the Middle East except the one inhabited by group 1, so that the Middle East as a whole will eventually be easier for group 1 to conquer. Shocked
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Points: 2720 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 04:59
@ Dean: I don't think there is a real immigration problem, it's just artificially constructed by rednecks and right wing extremists for their own political gain.

People are being manipulated into seeing a problem where there isn't one.

How on earth can it be normal to see someone beloning to a different ethnic group and thinking: "There's a threat to me and my family" instead of: "Hey, that's interesting. I wonder where he's from?"


Edited by npjnpj - June 26 2016 at 05:05
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 04:55
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:



The populations' worries are mainly empoyment and job security, living standards, and the refugee problems and not the bailing out of banks left right and centre, as seems to be the EU's main priority. This may be true or not, but that is the general perception.

The EU is run by accountants who are very aware of their powers and deem themselves almost invincible.

Nailed it.  This is why I fear the Brexit will be the match stick that ignites the explosion in which EU goes up in flames.  The very fact that far right parties have sprung up in a continent that has had long lasting peace should have been a grave warning but instead of heeding the warnings, the elite has heaped scorn on the supporters of such parties.  Yes, please do that, please point out whatever is bigoted in what the likes of Farage say but please also find out why things have come to such a pass and what can be done about it.  
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Points: 2720 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2016 at 04:49
@ Rogerthat: I'm fully in agreement with what you say about the EU and the individual countries' governments having to respond to the concerns of the populations, but I have grave doubts that this is going to happen.

The populations' worries are mainly empoyment and job security, living standards, and the refugee problems and not the bailing out of banks left right and centre, as seems to be the EU's main priority. This may be true or not, but that is the general perception.

But that is the main problem. The EU, apart from pure lip service, does not seem prepared to address or act on these issues. People, especially in the poorer areas feel this every day. It seems that addressing these problems for real requires a shift in the EU's policies, and the EU is just not flexible enough. The EU is run by accountants who are very aware of their powers and deem themselves almost invincible.

I would be very surprised if this were to change.


Edited by npjnpj - June 26 2016 at 04:51
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