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The.Crimson.King View Drop Down
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Points: 4596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 18:31
Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

Musically, you can't even compare Marillion to Genesis. Marillion is, if I were to use the familial analogy, the half-retarded step-child of Genesis. The power of the music itself, is, in my experience, the best initial indicator of quality in the lyric. Classic Genesis beats Neo-Prog any day.  

Poetry exists rather or not there is tonal accompaniment so comparing Marillion and Genesis musically is irrelevant.  
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Points: 1281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 18:21
Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

As a matter of fact, I'm only interested in an analysis of Gentle Giant lyrics because I look forward to a revelation of just "how absolutely awful," they ", really are." LOL


If that's the case, why didn't you just make a topic titled "How bad are Gentle Giant's lyrics?" If you did that, I could at least take your interest a bit more seriously and have a couple of laughs at the band's (and possibly my) expense in the process.


Edited by KingCrInuYasha - June 18 2013 at 18:23
He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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Points: 89 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 17:51
Musically, you can't even compare Marillion to Genesis. Marillion is, if I were to use the familial analogy, the half-retarded step-child of Genesis. The power of the music itself, is, in my experience, the best initial indicator of quality in the lyric. Classic Genesis beats Neo-Prog any day.  
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Points: 4596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 14:35
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Ok. Now let's have some fun.



Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.'

What is the flower and what is the gravestone?

Any takers?

:)

I'll play...but I can't just do the single line Wink
My interpretation of this fine example of dear Mr Dick's lyrical prowess is that <span style="line-height: 1.2;">I believe he seeks to portray the point of view of the worshipful "fan" who has become an obsessive "fanatic".  The object of his worship appears to be a well known female media personality (most likely in film and/or theater since he later refers to a "greasepaint mask") of (in his point of view) incredible beauty whose face has launched a thousand frames - the modern day equivalent of Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships.  He is coming to the realization that there will never be any physical contact between them, so he puts a metaphorical "flower" before the "gravestone" which signifies the death of his earthly desire.  Why a "metaphorical" flower?  Because the entire "relationship" is played in his imagination; therefore, he can only ever hope to be an "incubus" visiting the object of his fascination in the </span>subconscious<span style="line-height: 1.2;"> world she inhabits in a dream state.  </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">But wait!  He's not willing to admit defeat.  He has determined a plot to make his subconscious desire manifest itself in the physical world.  He invades her theatrical bubble so even the "perimeter of courtiers" who protect her from the trials and tribulations of the real world can no longer shield her from him.  He appears front and center in the audience and somehow his nocturnal efforts of the past will now pay off as he becomes the producer of her nightmare.  To everyone's disbelief (but his own) his very presence causes her to stutter, stammer, and lose her place in the fantasy of her "pretend" world.  Somehow, she recognizes him and is forced to exit the protected world of the theater and confront incubus, the producer of her nightmares.  Indeed, she's played this scene before.</span>


Oh come on!!! Hey. That was brilliant. You did the whole freakin song
You use the Incubus definition clearly to solve the big mistery between Fish and the wonder beauty.

You know its even been interpreted plainly.
The man (Fish) nursing an irrection with no flower to place before this gravestone.
The flower--her vagina
Gravestone--boner left unattended.

Big picture. The reality is no love or contact put before him to feel a sense of love or companionship.
It is isn't real cause the 'Incubus' literally is messing with his mind and distorting what's real and what's the dream land.

May I say. I much like your interpretation much better. Pretty weird, but that is what poetry does. It's ambiguities and usually never direct, which allows the flow of interpretation to happen amongst individuals. It breeds creative thought and group discussions which is why schools are so quick to use poetry as a lesson.

Anyway. Very good man. I think you nailed it.

Let's see who will be next. :)

Thanks for the kind words.  I quite like your "flower v gravestone" interpretation also.  As I was writing mine, I thought another approach could also work.  Rather than being a "long distance" fan-object relationship, the incubus was originally also in the theater (perhaps as her first Producer) and they were actually a couple.  As her career took off, his did not and he was forced to watch as she drifted farther and farther away finally leaving him alone only to surround herself with her new found sycophants...her "perimeter of courtiers".  He was forced to exchange their actual physical relationship to one where the closest he could get would be as an incubus to his "unapproachable" nightly target Cry

Anyway, I think Fish was one of progs finest lyricists and the OP's wish to specifically exclude him from this discussion to focus only on the "true giants of progressive rock" a glaring omission.
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refugee View Drop Down
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Points: 7026 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 09:05
^I think you quoted the wrong post. LOL But apart from that, it’s true that I posted the same text about The Cinema Show in the Guess Person Game.
He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
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Points: 24673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 08:35
Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

Interesting. But I'm more specifically interested in the poetry of whom I see as the true giants of progressive rock: Yes (Jon Anderson, although Howe, Squire, etc. made significant contributions), Genesis (Gabriel, but also Rutherford, Banks, Hackett, etc.), Jethro Tull (Ian Anderson), Van Der Graaf Generator (Peter Hammill), and to a lesser extent King Crimson (Pete Sinfield, Richard Palmer-James), and to an even lesser extent (the highly over-rated) Gentle Giant.


The highly over-rated Gentle Giant... I don't know if this indicates bad taste or a lack of understanding, not sacrilege anyway, though you seem to have angered some of their priests .
Anyway, I just don't agree. I did not spend much time analyzing their lyrics, but their music is virtuoso.

What I find more intriguing is putting Jon Anderson in line with other giants of progressive rock as lyricists for crying out loud. Ian Anderson, Roger Waters, Pete Sinfield and Peter Gabriel have some qualities as lyricists (the latter having written the best lines ever about sex in the chorus of The Cinema Show), but Jon Anderson is another story: although he can be credited with a major share in the shaping of some of the most beautiful gems of prog rock, many of his lyrics can be qualified as crap. In the best case it is like the 2001 Christmas letter from my aunt in California: full of misspellings, so that many words had another meaning than originally intended, which cost me three days to decipher .


This excerpt looks familiar to me somehow. I think you posted it in the Guess Person Game when I let Tiresias pop up there. But... ... I did not remember that Banks and Rutherford wrote these lyrics; I attributed them to PG because of his vivid imagination. These Charterhouse laddies knew their classics anyway.
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Points: 89 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 02:43
I always thought the gravestone and flower were allusions to the death of his spilt seed and his own mourning (self pity) about it. The message: Don't jack off. You're killing potential people.
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Points: 3 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2013 at 02:04
Originally posted by Tubes Tubes wrote:

I am interested in seeing whether someone already has examined Gentle Giant lyrics as serious poetical writing. I am interested to see whether, if it has been done that is to say, they also don't see much in it, like myself. If someone has undertaken this already, I would like to see some people here at Progarchives look at it for themselves. It might just do away with this hero-worship thing that GG and their 'fans' seem be involved in. This is the reason for my interest in GG lyrics. For my own purposes, however, I am more interested BY the writing of Anderson, Gabrial, et alia.


greatt..
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Points: 7868 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 21:28
Originally posted by The.Crimson.King The.Crimson.King wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Ok. Now let's have some fun.



Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.'

What is the flower and what is the gravestone?

Any takers?

:)

I'll play...but I can't just do the single line Wink
My interpretation of this fine example of dear Mr Dick's lyrical prowess is that <span style="line-height: 1.2;">I believe he seeks to portray the point of view of the worshipful "fan" who has become an obsessive "fanatic".  The object of his worship appears to be a well known female media personality (most likely in film and/or theater since he later refers to a "greasepaint mask") of (in his point of view) incredible beauty whose face has launched a thousand frames - the modern day equivalent of Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships.  He is coming to the realization that there will never be any physical contact between them, so he puts a metaphorical "flower" before the "gravestone" which signifies the death of his earthly desire.  Why a "metaphorical" flower?  Because the entire "relationship" is played in his imagination; therefore, he can only ever hope to be an "incubus" visiting the object of his fascination in the </span>subconscious<span style="line-height: 1.2;"> world she inhabits in a dream state.  </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.2;">But wait!  He's not willing to admit defeat.  He has determined a plot to make his subconscious desire manifest itself in the physical world.  He invades her theatrical bubble so even the "perimeter of courtiers" who protect her from the trials and tribulations of the real world can no longer shield her from him.  He appears front and center in the audience and somehow his nocturnal efforts of the past will now pay off as he becomes the producer of her nightmare.  To everyone's disbelief (but his own) his very presence causes her to stutter, stammer, and lose her place in the fantasy of her "pretend" world.  Somehow, she recognizes him and is forced to exit the protected world of the theater and confront incubus, the producer of her nightmares.  Indeed, she's played this scene before.</span>


Oh come on!!! Hey. That was brilliant. You did the whole freakin song
You use the Incubus definition clearly to solve the big mistery between Fish and the wonder beauty.

You know its even been interpreted plainly.
The man (Fish) nursing an irrection with no flower to place before this gravestone.
The flower--her vagina
Gravestone--boner left unattended.

Big picture. The reality is no love or contact put before him to feel a sense of love or companionship.
It is isn't real cause the 'Incubus' literally is messing with his mind and distorting what's real and what's the dream land.

May I say. I much like your interpretation much better. Pretty weird, but that is what poetry does. It's ambiguities and usually never direct, which allows the flow of interpretation to happen amongst individuals. It breeds creative thought and group discussions which is why schools are so quick to use poetry as a lesson.

Anyway. Very good man. I think you nailed it.

Let's see who will be next. :)
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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The.Crimson.King View Drop Down
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Points: 4596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 19:58
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Ok. Now let's have some fun.



Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.'

What is the flower and what is the gravestone?

Any takers?

:)

I'll play...but I can't just do the single line Wink

My interpretation of this fine example of dear Mr Dick's lyrical prowess is that I believe he seeks to portray the point of view of the worshipful "fan" who has become an obsessive "fanatic".  The object of his worship appears to be a well known female media personality (most likely in film and/or theater since he later refers to a "greasepaint mask") of (in his point of view) incredible beauty whose face has launched a thousand frames - the modern day equivalent of Helen of Troy whose face launched a thousand ships.  He is coming to the realization that there will never be any physical contact between them, so he puts a metaphorical "flower" before the "gravestone" which signifies the death of his earthly desire.  Why a "metaphorical" flower?  Because the entire "relationship" is played in his imagination; therefore, he can only ever hope to be an "incubus" visiting the object of his fascination in the subconscious world she inhabits in a dream state.  

But wait!  He's not willing to admit defeat.  He has determined a plot to make his subconscious desire manifest itself in the physical world.  He invades her theatrical bubble so even the "perimeter of courtiers" who protect her from the trials and tribulations of the real world can no longer shield her from him.  He appears front and center in the audience and somehow his nocturnal efforts of the past will now pay off as he becomes the producer of her nightmare.  To everyone's disbelief (but his own) his very presence causes her to stutter, stammer, and lose her place in the fantasy of her "pretend" world.  Somehow, she recognizes him and is forced to exit the protected world of the theater and confront incubus, the producer of her nightmares.  Indeed, she's played this scene before.
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:32
I know what swan song is. I've just never heard the term "swan song attitude" before. I could only assume what it means, which is still pretty ambiguous.

Edited by Dayvenkirq - June 18 2013 at 02:44
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Points: 7868 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:30
Ok. Now let's have some fun.



Derek Fish in song Incubus insightfully says 'With no flower to place before this gravestone.'

What is the flower and what is the gravestone?

Any takers?

:)
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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progbethyname View Drop Down
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Points: 7868 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:22
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

The End.
Epilogue: what's a swan song attitude?
[red curtains closing]
Now let's discuss prog literature/poetry.


Ambiguities I know are plaging your mind.

Swan song is an old expression to indicate someone's last orra' before death.
It's just more wearing your heart on your sleeve flowery stuff.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_song
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Points: 89 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 18:09
No offense, intended to you yourself mokito, but you do ALMOST sound like a condescending elitist douchebag; 1 Corinthians 3:18: Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
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Points: 26138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 17:55
Goo goo ga joob
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 17:38
The End.

Epilogue: what's a swan song attitude?

[red curtains closing]

Now let's discuss prog literature/poetry.
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Points: 7868 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 16:53
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

...
Hey great. You enjoyed the video.

 
Nope ... I have read a lot of poetry and literature! And born in a house iwth 40k some books of Portuguese, Spanish and Brazilian literature ... I guess that I could not give a merde about most "lyrics"!



I studied Romantic and Victorian literature in college, so I'm not aloof or obtuse when it comes to extensive poetry analyzation. Personally, I do not care too much for the lugubrious, bleeding heart and swan song attitude.
I laugh it off really.....and it's exactly what I am doing now. Has nothing to do with education because I just choose to laugh. Life is more fun that way then being a weiling wall of a pussy.

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Points: 18167 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 16:44
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

...
Hey great. You enjoyed the video.
 
Nope ... I have read a lot of poetry and literature! And born in a house iwth 40k some books of Portuguese, Spanish and Brazilian literature ... I guess that I could not give a merde about most "lyrics"!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Points: 7868 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 16:16
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:



Sometimes, I just want to ... get mad.

Poetry is a LITERARY FORM that has history ... like THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

For you and I to sit here and say that "lyrics" for rock music and specially "songs", are poetry, is a bit facile, silly, and also ... more than likely a bit uneducated, in terms of the history of the art form.

From my point of view, a lot of "lyrics" will become the "new poetry", sometime about 100 years from now, but it is too difficult for almost all the posters in this thread to see a bit beyond their senility and drunken'ess ... not that I feel any different saying all this! ... that there could be something that one day will be called "poetry" and will be a part of that literary tradition ... you and I, have no idea, and will NEVER be able to make a proper distinction in our lifetimes ... but there is something that we can do ... create enough literary/essayist discussion about the lyrics of a piece or two ... but no ... the only thing that some folks can do is say GG is trash, and have no ability to break it down piece by piece as to why ... well, sheeeeeeepppp ddddiiiiipppp!!!! ... you know how many people were offended by "Our Lady of Flowers" ... and everyone upset that the French literatii were all excited that they got something over all the other intelectuals that were kissing T S Elliot's shorts? You got it ... same thing here!

It was, the perfect ... number one ... ooopppsss ... finger! (just like Mad Magazine that one time!)

I doubt that anyone here that is discussing FISH, PG and such, have ever read Peter Hammill away from the music, or Roy Harper away from the music, or Pete Sinfield away from the music to be able to make a decent evaluation of the written work that those folks created ... and that's a problem ... you will never read a Byron, a Shelley, a Shakespeare, a Milton, a Waldo, a Rabelais, a ... whoever ... but your "knowledge" of "lyrics" makes you qualified to discuss/compare it to "poetry"?

Weird ... your TA or professor will give you a D- with the difference being that you at least spent a little time typing it ... we hope! Now you know, based on the posts in this thread, why so much of rock music is not taken seriously ... because we behave like idiots and do not have the ability, or desire, to show it as much better than it really is ... prog or not is not the issue ... your attitude is!

Now, do me a small favor ... grow up and help make the music we love more important by discussing it correctly, not in terms of you like and you don't like!

Thanks



Hey great. You enjoyed the video.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Points: 18167 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2013 at 15:44
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

...
That's a cheap Motivation tactic.   
I'm honestly considering that I'd rather listen to Barbara Strisand sing in the shower over Dylan.
 
She has the voice ... but she has no words!
 
Sorry! I would think that if you said Mariah Carey you would be closer to it ... but what the heck!
 
 
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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