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Mr ProgFreak 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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 Posted: March 13 2011 at 05:27 |
^ There isn't one community - you'll always have factions that prefer avant-garde underdogs, factions that favor melodic mainstream stuff like Camel, then you have those who only like 70s stuff, people who focus on Neo-Prog or 90s retro prog, metal fans, fans of heavy prog, Italian etc..
So obviously it makes little sense to narrow the list by subjective preference of genre - narrowing by year/decade or limiting to one album per artist seem preferable to me, and, as I showed with the sig image, can shorten the list quite substantially, giving exposure to more artists. And it of course doesn't mean that the original list would have to disappear ... users should ideally decide for themselves which level of detail they want to see.
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The Hemulen
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 31 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5964
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 05:17 |
 Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I somewhat agree - on a website like progARCHIVES.com, it would be nice to have a list of the top classic (1970s) prog albums around for newbies to check out. Or make it the top 100 most essential classic prog artists. And by that reasoning it's clear that the original poster simply tries to use the top 100 list for something that it's not.
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But who would decide such a list? I'm wary of encouraging any notion of a fixed "consensus" on what is and isn't deemed worthy of someone's attention. The commendable thing about PA's top 100 is that it is an ever-shifting thing, continually reflecting the amalgamated opinions of an ever-shifting and expanding community. It's still incredibly flawed, but at least it doesn't reinforce some kind of indisputable, untouchable received opinion in which album X is forever a "classic" and albums Y and Z shall languish in eternity as "also-rans" regardless of how the community's attitude towards them may shift and develop over the years. Take my oh-so-beloved Cardiacs for example. When I joined this site many moons ago they were barely ever mentioned and had a very low level of appreciation, even amongst the avant-prog contingent. Their reputation on this site has snowballed in the last two or three years thanks to a few very vocal members championing them and an ever-increasing awareness of the band in the wider music community thanks to the internet and social media in particular. That increased awareness and reputation has resulted in one of their albums finally creeping into the PA top 100. That may infuriate some of the die-hards and purists, but it is at least a better (albeit still ultimately inaccurate) reflection of their current status within this community.
Edited by Trouserpress - March 13 2011 at 05:19
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 05:08 |
In this respect, we should put up a "ProgRock for newbies" list or article if we want to help out newbies. Just like a fly fisher or a golf website would put up a "xxxx for newbies" article.
Then again; most people would find that patronising. Personally; I started in PA as a Genesis fan and expanded into music I did not even know excisted after my initial period here. Zeuhl for example. I cannot fail to notice that many others are following the path I took a couple of years ago. The same path as others followed long before I started in PA. I think the exploration element is a very important element of becoming a newbie member of PA. And no newbie-introduction help is needed here. Regarding Gentle Giant: I do believe the vast majority of newbies know who they are and what they stood for.
Edited by toroddfuglesteg - March 13 2011 at 05:13
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 05:03 |
Interesting point. However, I think the original poster was complaining that the Times Square is presented as a place to look for mountains like Mount Everest.
I somewhat agree - on a website like progARCHIVES.com, it would be nice to have a list of the top classic (1970s) prog albums around for newbies to check out. Or make it the top 100 most essential classic prog artists. And by that reasoning it's clear that the original poster simply tries to use the top 100 list for something that it's not. Which is perfectly understandable, but obviously can't work.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - March 13 2011 at 05:08
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:57 |
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Although Mount Everest is not visible from the Times Square in New York; does that means Mount Everest is a lesser mountain ?
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BarryGlibb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 28 2010
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Status: Offline
Points: 1781
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:49 |
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The last post should have been to JJLehto. Sorry about that.
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BarryGlibb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 28 2010
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Status: Offline
Points: 1781
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:47 |
JJLehto wrote:
Trouserpress wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how people can get so f**king worked up about a list. A list on the internet, no less.
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Yes, quite amazing.
And I wonder if he even bothered to read my response, sorry to sound self centered but I think it's pretty obvious a kid who wants to get into prog will find the classics, even if they are not in a silly list. Not only from this site, but type in progressive rock and the big name bands and classics will come up first...
Besides, the site should be changed just so some bands you like can stay in the top 100?
They may be classics, even essentials but it is what it is!
If the site gets changed so you can keep your albums in the top 100 I demand its then altered in a way to put every Opeth album in the top 100. Why not, I think they are deserving.
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Mr Trouserpress sir. "He" read your response.....and took note. I just didn't respond. All I'm doing is creating debate. I am not getting f**ing worked up about a list as has beeen suggested. All I'm saying is that albums are getting credit when 29 people have reviewed them as apposed > 300. I am not trying to creat a war here. Normally I'm a bit of a joker but I seemed to have touched a few nerves with this post. Which is good for democracy!
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:37 |
Trouserpress wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how people can get so f**king worked up about a list. A list on the internet, no less.
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Yes, quite amazing. And I wonder if he even bothered to read my response, sorry to sound self centered but I think it's pretty obvious a kid who wants to get into prog will find the classics, even if they are not in a silly list. Not only from this site, but type in progressive rock and the big name bands and classics will come up first... Besides, the site should be changed just so some bands you like can stay in the top 100? They may be classics, even essentials but it is what it is! If the site gets changed so you can keep your albums in the top 100 I demand its then altered in a way to put every Opeth album in the top 100. Why not, I think they are deserving.
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The Hemulen
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 31 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5964
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:27 |
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It never ceases to amaze me how people can get so f**king worked up about a list. A list on the internet, no less.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:27 |
BarryGlibb wrote:
Soon there will not be one Gentle Giant album in the top 100, which is outrageous considering their standing in the Prog community.
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Actually the "prog community" is an ever changing group of people, and even if we could get a representative bunch of them to vote on "top album ever", it remains to be seen whether today Gentle Giant would be included. The problem is, among other things, that 100 albums is much too short a list to mention all great albums.
I think the only way to ensure that Gentle Giant is in there would be to limit it - for example to albums of the 1970s, and to one album per artist.
It just so happens that the signature service at Progfreak.com provides a great way of demonstrating this. To the left there's my top rated prog albums, in the middle they're narrowed down to one per artist, to the right they're also narrowed down to the 1970s.
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BarryGlibb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 28 2010
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Status: Offline
Points: 1781
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:22 |
darkshade wrote:
by the way, i thought this thread was about the slow demise of Gentle Giant. Period.
I was going to say, it wasn't slow, it was actually quite fast 
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Yes it is fast and that is my point. Caravan & ELP have gone. Focus, VdG Generator, Rush, Camel and even much of Yes are heading in the same direction. i.e. South bound.
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darkshade
Collaborator
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Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:14 |
by the way, i thought this thread was about the slow demise of Gentle Giant. Period. I was going to say, it wasn't slow, it was actually quite fast
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darkshade
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:12 |
JJLehto wrote:
Youngsters will find it the same way a lot of us probably did, through the internet.
There is this giant progressive rock site I heard about what a very active forum.
Besides, classics are classics. Anyone wanting to get into prog will come across GG I am sure...
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all of this
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BarryGlibb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 28 2010
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Status: Offline
Points: 1781
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 04:01 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm laughing too hard to write a rational response to this post. |
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And?
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 03:37 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm laughing too hard to write a rational response to this post. |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 03:09 |
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Youngsters will find it the same way a lot of us probably did, through the internet.
There is this giant progressive rock site I heard about what a very active forum.
Besides, classics are classics. Anyone wanting to get into prog will come across GG I am sure...
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SaltyJon
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 08 2008
Location: Location
Status: Offline
Points: 28772
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 01:36 |
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What he said (Henry and Slarti). I'm personally happy to see lesser-known bands making it onto the top 100. Of course, once they're there they're not quite as much "lesser-known" but still...diversity is a good thing. Gentle Giant will live without being in the top 100, and anyone who happens to click on the Eclectic Prog page will still be exposed to them since they have four albums in the Eclectic top 20.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 01:31 |
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You will see an inevitable decline in the ratings for the artists that no longer make new music. It's really no big deal.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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BarryGlibb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 28 2010
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Status: Offline
Points: 1781
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 01:27 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
BarryGlibb wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm laughing too hard to write a rational response to this post. |
Am I missing something here?
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Yes, self-awareness.
Ok, I can't sleep I guess I can manage something. First of all, your claim that we need to modify the algorithm to protect Gentle Giant is absurd in every possible way. Glass House is hardly in a precarious position at 42, and why should we promote Gentle Giant over other bands that the rating base (apparently) likes more? I don't like Gentle Giant, and I really don't care that you do. Just as you don't care that I like Henry Cow and would not like us modifying the algorithm so that the number of ratings is less important so I can sneak one into the top 100. Should we also take pity on ELP because they only have one album in the top 100, and it's rated even lower than Glass House? Who decides what band is important enough to subvert their natural rating?
And did you look at the result of knocking out everything under 300? It's a very very boring list with only about 25 bands represented because only the very big bands can get enough star-only ratings from random people to make it. The current list represents prog much more than 7 Gentle Giant, Genesis, King Crimson, and Pink Floyd albums. |
Henry I don't think I like being dissed like this. I happen to have gret admniration for Henry Cow, Fred Frith etc. So you have good taste. I put this post up in good faith, just trying to contribute to the PA community. You seemed to like my Under appreciated Prog Spoon Player thread and I thought I had an ally. Not sure if that is so now.. I just feel that the top 100 is being infiltrated by albums that are only being rated by a few people (<100) that is all. And I put Gentle Giant in there as an example.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: March 13 2011 at 01:11 |
BarryGlibb wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm laughing too hard to write a rational response to this post. |
Am I missing something here?
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Yes, self-awareness.
Ok, I can't sleep I guess I can manage something. First of all, your claim that we need to modify the algorithm to protect Gentle Giant is absurd in every possible way. Glass House is hardly in a precarious position at 42, and why should we promote Gentle Giant over other bands that the rating base (apparently) likes more? I don't like Gentle Giant, and I really don't care that you do. Just as you don't care that I like Henry Cow and would not like us modifying the algorithm so that the number of ratings is less important so I can sneak one into the top 100. Should we also take pity on ELP because they only have one album in the top 100, and it's rated even lower than Glass House? Who decides what band is important enough to subvert their natural rating?
And did you look at the result of knocking out everything under 300? It's a very very boring list with only about 25 bands represented because only the very big bands can get enough star-only ratings from random people to make it. The current list represents prog much more than 7 Gentle Giant, Genesis, King Crimson, and Pink Floyd albums.
Edited by Henry Plainview - March 13 2011 at 01:12
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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The slow demise of Gentle Giant in the top 100
