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Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 2696
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Posted: October 22 2008 at 03:14 |
Certif1ed wrote:
Oh yes you did, in your earlier posts. |
oh no i didn't! ooooh, I love a bit of panto! ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
Certif1ed wrote:
How hard can this be to get across to people who simply disagree with what you're saying and have no substantiation because they feel rankled by it because you don't like their favourite music?
Sheesh! |
I actually apologised for any offense to you in my last post, was this overlooked? It's not very gallant to ignore an apology and keep on with the battering ram is it?
I shall flounce off in my best Scarlet O'Hara manner........... although before I go.......... I will say I was not at all peturbed by your review, infact I racall mentioning I found it amusing. (is that the problem?)
Like I also said, (or something to this effect) Variety is the spice of life. ![Tongue Tongue](smileys/smiley17.gif)
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 22 2008 at 03:10 |
stonebeard wrote:
I think I can distill the issue.
Neo prog is a very defined genre, if it even is one (I'd debate it). Keyboards + clear vocals + major/minor key guitar solos + 4/4-7/8-4/4-7/8-5/8 (so unexpected!) = neo prog. Stray too far from this and you become art rock or symphonic. Neo prog is very very usually unadventurous. I say to myself, "I want to find a new Neo album," because I want to hear something in a very specific style, but with newer/better ideas. It's about songwriting usually. By the books a lot of the time. Experimentation usually lies in production and synth sounds, if anywhere. It is the "pop music of prog," I guess, but to take that as an intrinsically bad thing is narrow-minded and elitist. If you happen to abhor pop music generally and seek out the weirdness in all things, God bless but I have no freaking clue how you can do that 24/7. |
![Clap Clap](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif) exactly
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What?
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: October 22 2008 at 02:50 |
I think I can distill the issue. Neo prog is a very defined genre, if it even is one (I'd debate it). Keyboards + clear vocals + major/minor key guitar solos + 4/4-7/8-4/4-7/8-5/8 (so unexpected!) = neo prog. Stray too far from this and you become art rock or symphonic. Neo prog is very very usually unadventurous. I say to myself, "I want to find a new Neo album," because I want to hear something in a very specific style, but with newer/better ideas. It's about songwriting usually. By the books a lot of the time. Experimentation usually lies in production and synth sounds, if anywhere. It is the "pop music of prog," I guess, but to take that as an intrinsically bad thing is narrow-minded and elitist. If you happen to abhor pop music generally and seek out the weirdness in all things, God bless but I have no freaking clue how you can do that 24/7. Also...
Henry Plainview wrote:
While I do think there are still artists
bringing relatively new music to the table, you are correct. But at
least RIO doesn't fall into that infuriating, lazy 4/4 midtempo
drumbeat that neo does. ;-) |
Haha. Though if you listen to enough, you'll find the ever present 7/8
time sig is sooo cliche. It becomes a task of seeing who can make the
most of that time sig
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Points: 7559
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Posted: October 22 2008 at 02:34 |
prog-chick wrote:
ok, cool off buddy,
I have not called you names. |
*Sigh* - Oh yes you did, in your earlier posts.
It's quite clear that you got upset with my review, and posted twice about it - so I responded, and you seem surprised that I should do so.
I am perfectly *cool*.
prog-chick wrote:
I jumped back in on this because you asked me to. My comments in no way constitute an attack, if they come accross that way then I think we have a problem here. |
I respond to you, you respond to me, and an argument is born - but the central point was that you were accusing me of dissing an album you really like and baselessly presenting my opinion as fact - whereas the reality is that I reasoned out my opinion and in no way attempted to say that it is the only way to see things.
prog-chick wrote:
It is ironic though, dontchya think (and this intended to be directed both at Certif1ed and at other reviewers) that those who find it easy to dish out a poor opinion of others in life are usually those less able to receive one?
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I am perfectly able to take valid criticism, but if you're going to direct unfair comments at someone, don't expect them to be happy about it.
If you want to tell me that my review is somehow wrong, rather than opposed to your opinion, then please reason it.
For the last time, I do not make up my own definitions of Prog (unlike MOST), and I am not saying that I'm the holder of some kind of mystical truth - indeed, I question just about everything. See my sig. I note that there are still no actual answers, just more accusations against me of being dogmatic - and nothing could be further from the truth.
How hard can this be to get across to people who simply disagree with what you're saying and have no substantiation because they feel rankled by it because you don't like their favourite music?
Sheesh!
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 22 2008 at 02:20 |
LiquidEternity wrote:
Ha, of course there is plenty of sense to what you're saying. But I see a lot of that "my opinion is mine and that's all I need" attitude on the internet, and sometimes it's not right. Here, I don't know. But there have been lots of bands I've had the wrong opinion about and people here or elsewhere have helped me see around what was in my way. I don't know. Does that make sense? Don't wander around on here with walled-in opinions, in any thread. The reason that people keep arguing is because there's something to be said for the truth of both sides. | ![Clap Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) ![Clap Clap](smileys/smiley32.gif) Yes, if you are not receptive to a different opinion, you might find it difficult to discover new stuff too? Besides, can anybody live in a vacuum? It's bad enough we are fans of this elitist prog thing that not many people in the world talk about ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) and then if we close doors to each other, we're not helping each other's cause, are we? ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif) Surely we all must have at some point or other taken a call on an album we wanted based on the views of a reviewer we trust, I don't see anything unnatural about it, that's where sharing begins and sharing, like anything else in this world, can't be all hunky-dory all the time.
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AlexUC
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 06 2007
Location: Noveria
Status: Offline
Points: 392
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 23:07 |
LiquidEternity wrote:
Ha, of course there is plenty of sense to what you're saying. But I see a lot of that "my opinion is mine and that's all I need" attitude on the internet, and sometimes it's not right. Here, I don't know. But there have been lots of bands I've had the wrong opinion about and people here or elsewhere have helped me see around what was in my way. I don't know. Does that make sense? Don't wander around on here with walled-in opinions, in any thread. The reason that people keep arguing is because there's something to be said for the truth of both sides.
I'm not exactly sure what it is I'm trying to iterate. Maybe just that I see no reason for people to be dead set on an opinion and to get upset when people try to adjust them. Whose opinions do we fiddle with the most? The people we care about. It's only people I don't like whose opinions I don't care about. Maybe that's it. Maybe people claiming not to care about other people's opinions merely says to me that such a person doesn't care about people. Right or not, that's what I end up seeing, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
Note, I am not in any way accusing you of not caring about people.
I'm guessing this opinion debate has pooped all over these forums for years.
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At the end, you can take or leave whatever you read about the other's opinions. It all depends on your availability to accept the other's arguments, validate them and decide if you take it or not.
In my personal case, I've already said that many of the arguments here changed my perception about the genre in discussion, so, it depends on every one. In other case maybe I would just think "oh no, these guys are pointless, RIO is the only real thing" but no!!! That's the reason I wanted to talk about this, to know opinions, perceptions, ideas, likes and dislikes. Thanks to the arguments here I decided to extend my ears and give a chance a genre in which I was very prejudiced!
The problem start when people engages in changing the other's thoughts... But, we're assuming we're all civilized people that respects the other's thoughts, mmm right??
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This is not my beautiful house...
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LiquidEternity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 900
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 22:39 |
Ha, of course there is plenty of sense to what you're saying. But I see a lot of that "my opinion is mine and that's all I need" attitude on the internet, and sometimes it's not right. Here, I don't know. But there have been lots of bands I've had the wrong opinion about and people here or elsewhere have helped me see around what was in my way. I don't know. Does that make sense? Don't wander around on here with walled-in opinions, in any thread. The reason that people keep arguing is because there's something to be said for the truth of both sides.
I'm not exactly sure what it is I'm trying to iterate. Maybe just that I see no reason for people to be dead set on an opinion and to get upset when people try to adjust them. Whose opinions do we fiddle with the most? The people we care about. It's only people I don't like whose opinions I don't care about. Maybe that's it. Maybe people claiming not to care about other people's opinions merely says to me that such a person doesn't care about people. Right or not, that's what I end up seeing, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
Note, I am not in any way accusing you of not caring about people.
I'm guessing this opinion debate has pooped all over these forums for years.
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E-Dub
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Joined: February 24 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 7910
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 22:14 |
LiquidEternity wrote:
That said, arguing is probably the most useless thing the human race has ever come up with, second to only prose poetry, maybe.
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Man alive. I said pretty much the same thing (in regards to arguing). The only difference is our approach. I wished I would've taken yours. E
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E-Dub
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Joined: February 24 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 22:12 |
It's not because I care what others think. Is that why you're on? Maybe I misunderstood your point.
And I assume you're asking me why I'm on this site rather than on the internet in general. Right? I'm here for pretty much the same reasons why a majority of the people are here: I enjoy discussing progressive music.
Maybe there's too much of a 'finality' to my statements because I do seek the opinions of others if I'm interested in a certain band or for other reasons. So, OK you caught me. Opinions do matter to a degree. My point (which I thought was pretty clear) is that it's not my job to mold you into my way of thinking...just like it's not your job to mold me into your way of thinking. Furthermore, I don't care if we agree or not. That doesn't mean we're bad people.
I'm actually a bit stunned to think I had to explain this.
E
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 21:53 |
E-Dub wrote:
I purposely stayed away from this thread because the title alone is asking for trouble (and my hunch was spot on in this case).
Why are we still having this discussion? We can all go 'round, and around and around and nothing gets accomplished. The biggest reason I've stayed away (and something tells me I wished I would've stayed away completely) is it's the same tired argument over and over. Sometimes I truly wonder if people pile on because it makes them look good to the other prog snobs, when in fact they've only heard a wee little bit (not saying it's fact, but just a wonderment). I'm not saying it in every case, but wonder if the 'mob mentaility' takes over in some.
I like neo progressive music. It makes me feel good and I feel like I'm hearing something special when I hear my favorite bands within the genre. The same goes for Genesis, Kansas, Barclay James Harvest and Yes. It all boils down to personal taste because some neo I cannot tolerate <<cough....Galleon!!!>>.
I don't care who likes it and who doesn't. It's like the Obama vs. McCain thread: you're not changing my opinion and I'm not changing yours. Moreso, I could give a frog's fat a** who likes what and who doesn't. It doesn't sway me in one way or another. As long as I enjoy it, who cares???!!!
And as for the Pendragon comments, it's another case of opinions. Personally, I found it to be brilliant and it sounds nothing like their music in a 10 year span. But that's me. If you find it boring, whoopty friggin' doo!!! If I find it to be awesome, well whoopty friggin' doo!!! At the end of the day (you'll be lying in a suit of grey...sorry...Spock's Beard moment) my opinion only matters to me.
E
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If you truly believe this, why are you on the internet?
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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LiquidEternity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 900
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 21:52 |
Not to pick a fight, but who would honestly be here if we didn't care about each other's opinions? Isn't that what this site is? I know I personally am very interested in what you and everybody else thinks. If there is no interaction of opinions, this site is pointless.
That said, arguing is probably the most useless thing the human race has ever come up with, second to only prose poetry, maybe.
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E-Dub
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Joined: February 24 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 7910
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 21:06 |
I purposely stayed away from this thread because the title alone is asking for trouble (and my hunch was spot on in this case).
Why are we still having this discussion? We can all go 'round, and around and around and nothing gets accomplished. The biggest reason I've stayed away (and something tells me I wished I would've stayed away completely) is it's the same tired argument over and over. Sometimes I truly wonder if people pile on because it makes them look good to the other prog snobs, when in fact they've only heard a wee little bit (not saying it's fact, but just a wonderment). I'm not saying it in every case, but wonder if the 'mob mentaility' takes over in some.
I like neo progressive music. It makes me feel good and I feel like I'm hearing something special when I hear my favorite bands within the genre. The same goes for Genesis, Kansas, Barclay James Harvest and Yes. It all boils down to personal taste because some neo I cannot tolerate <<cough....Galleon!!!>>.
I don't care who likes it and who doesn't. It's like the Obama vs. McCain thread: you're not changing my opinion and I'm not changing yours. Moreso, I could give a frog's fat a** who likes what and who doesn't. It doesn't sway me in one way or another. As long as I enjoy it, who cares???!!!
And as for the Pendragon comments, it's another case of opinions. Personally, I found it to be brilliant and it sounds nothing like their music in a 10 year span. But that's me. If you find it boring, whoopty friggin' doo!!! If I find it to be awesome, well whoopty friggin' doo!!! At the end of the day (you'll be lying in a suit of grey...sorry...Spock's Beard moment) my opinion only matters to me.
E
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debrewguy
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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
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Points: 3596
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 20:16 |
I agree with windhawk. Too often the argument is that something is not prog because factor X or Y is not present. Let me expand on why that is a problem - Too often the same criteria used to "exclude" or "disqualify" a group or album is used as a description of another. Prog Metal is not prog despite the time changes and complex chord structures. RIO or Symphonic is prog because of the time changes and complex chord changes. (all examples not true to a t, but approximate).
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice, Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 19:37 |
I'm listening to these Myspace songs for Pure, and they're pretty damn boring. You have disappointed me prog chick!
Edited by Henry Plainview - October 21 2008 at 19:38
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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LiquidEternity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 900
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 18:51 |
I haven't listened to all of Pure, but I got pretty bored with it about halfway through. It seems to me that Pendragon are doing their best to mimic Galahad's latest release?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Location: Peru
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 18:19 |
Windhawk wrote:
When reading up on this thread and the one I wish was strangled, I start to understand why there hasn't been much of a community feeling in the prog environment, that's for sure.
The "this isn't prog because I say so" mode on discussion is really disheartening at times, same goes for "if you don't see this as prog you're lacking in intelligence and understanding" approach seen elsewhere on the site today.
We're talking music here folks, an art that entertains us and gives us something. We have differences in personal taste, in musical perception as well as appreciation - is it so hard to have peace with the notion that one can't be an expert on all aspects of the music that is a part of this site?
Discussing ones personal understanding of this form of art really shouldn't be important enough to result in hurt egoes, big emotions and melodrama. We're adults after all, not attending kindergarten...
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If egoes were to be hurted, neither you or me would had accepted the Neo Prog task, specially knowing how many prejudices we have to confront every day.
But who cares? We just go on, because at the end we have more music to enjoy
Ivān
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 21 2008 at 18:58
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Windhawk
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Joined: December 28 2006
Location: Norway
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 15:47 |
When reading up on this thread and the one I wish was strangled, I start to understand why there hasn't been much of a community feeling in the prog environment, that's for sure.
The "this isn't prog because I say so" mode on discussion is really disheartening at times, same goes for "if you don't see this as prog you're lacking in intelligence and understanding" approach seen elsewhere on the site today.
We're talking music here folks, an art that entertains us and gives us something. We have differences in personal taste, in musical perception as well as appreciation - is it so hard to have peace with the notion that one can't be an expert on all aspects of the music that is a part of this site?
Discussing ones personal understanding of this form of art really shouldn't be important enough to result in hurt egoes, big emotions and melodrama. We're adults after all, not attending kindergarten...
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net http://www.houseofprog.com
My profile on Mixcloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 15:35 |
Certif1ed wrote:
I wasn't aware that it was fighting talk, although I seem to have been put onto the defensive, as far as my review is concerned. |
I wasn't aware that disagreeing with you meens fight, until now, everybody ha been as clear and gentle as possible, nobidy has atacked you or your opinions....That we disagree? Yes, but that's what we are here for, to express our opėnions with strength and education.
I'm usually in the position you are now,but wirst, normally I'm alone in front of four or five members (including you in ·The Stranglers thread) and didn't believed I was in a fighting or defensive position.
Certif1ed wrote:
The end result may be progressive for Pendragon, but in the scheme of things, it sounds a lot like other music that's been released over the past 10 years. |
The scheme is progressive (with low case) and innovative for NEO PROG, a genre that was accused of being stuck in time,
And yes, everything has been done in the past 10 or 40 years, still bands play Symphonic as the bands in the 70's and still today some bands play Jazz in the vein of Louis Armstroong 60 years ago....There's nothing new under the sun, simply an innovative approach.
Certif1ed wrote:
None of what you've described is progressive - and largely describes the textures rather than any inherent musical attribute that we might think of as Prog. If I compared it with... you see where this is going? |
Maybe not progressive for Avant or Rio, but surely progressive for Neo, and about being Progressive Rock...There's no doubt about his, except in your mind, but you are entiitled to your opinion and we to disagreee.
Ivān
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Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2696
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 15:25 |
ok, cool off buddy, I have not called you names. I jumped back in on this because you asked me to. My comments in no way constitute an attack, if they come accross that way then I think we have a problem here. In my posts I have directed some things in answer to your posts. Other things are in answer to the topic at hand, so just calm ye down! I will refain from further comment, it seems that you are feeling offended, at which point I apologise for the offense (none was intended on my part) ********** It is ironic though, dontchya think (and this intended to be directed both at Certif1ed and at other reviewers) that those who find it easy to dish out a poor opinion of others in life are usually those less able to receive one?
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Points: 7559
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Posted: October 21 2008 at 15:10 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
^I certainly don't hear any boundary pushing on Pure - it's a very run-of-the-mill album to my ears, with nothing new on at all. I fail to hear it as "Neo" or "Prog". I'd agree it sounds lazy, and I felt a bit ripped off when I heard it.
What's so new?
Which boundaries are being pushed?
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Pendragon is traditionally one of the most melodic but predictable Neo Prog bands (I love their foirst albums though), very close to the Fairy Tale inspired A Trick of he tail,. even the use of Mellotron used to be almopst exact to the one in Genesis.
But pure is a different thing, it's absolutely aggressive, at some po8ints dark and even haunting, playing in the botfer that divides Neo, Symph and Heavy Prog.
Instead of melodic pieces with soft female mellotron vocals "a la Ripples", now it's used to provide hard almost Gothic (not Goth) vocals, The guitar has a very important roile, the friendly atmosphere has ceased almost completely to be replaced by almost metalic guitar riffs.
If that is not pushing the boundaries, I don't get what is.
Ivān
BTW: I',m far rom being a Pendragon or any band fanboy, but I rated it with 5 dstars, because I bel8ieve they made a healthy move, so please, dobn't attack those who disagree with you calleng us fanboys. |
I wasn't aware that it was fighting talk, although I seem to have been put onto the defensive, as far as my review is concerned.
The end result may be progressive for Pendragon, but in the scheme of things, it sounds a lot like other music that's been released over the past 10 years. None of what you've described is progressive - and largely describes the textures rather than any inherent musical attribute that we might think of as Prog. If I compared it with... you see where this is going?
prog-chick wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Yes, and I'm expressing them again here - is there a problem? |
None at all.........a bit unnecessarily repeatative sure, but not a problem if it's an issue you feel strongly about.
Certif1ed wrote:
Which opinions have I tried to purvey as fact?
In this case, it's because the music is poor - for Prog.
It's definitely NOT a masterpiece of Prog, though - the fanboys are having a laugh with us on this one!
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Your assumption that it's only been rated highly because of the actions of "fanboys" rather than the possibility that it could in fact be blinkin good and you could in fact be wrong speaks highly!
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Whether it's "blinkin' good" or not is completely beside the point - how many times do I have to capitalise PROG?
If I have an opinion, then it is my opinion, and hence not wrong, but a Masterpiece of Prog? Pull the other one - it plays "On Reflection"!
prog-chick wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Yes, and I'm expressing them again here - is there a problem? |
None at all.........a bit unnecessarily repeatative sure, but not a problem if it's an issue you feel strongly about.
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Well, you seemed to feel it necessary to repeat your opinions of my review - it read like the last thing you were doing was laughing, to be honest.
I don't see why you're criticising me for repeating myself - it appears that you're not actually taking in what I said in my reivew or what I'm repeating here.
prog-chick wrote:
With what authority can you claim it to be "poor" does that mean thousands upon thousands (who love it) have inferior intellect? This is where your opinion becomes "fact" this is where you step into that netherworld of mistaking your dislike for an album with an inferior album!
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Of course not - are you actually reading what I'm writing?
This is a waste of time - you're calling me names, and it's because I do not share your opinion!
The "authority" I use is simple reason, which may be read in my reivew, and counter-argued, using yet more reason - nothing more. It doesn't make my opinions fact - I simply use observable facts to bolster my gut reaction. I'm sure I aready said that.
prog-chick wrote:
But no hard feelings, like I say it gave me and others a good chortle.
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I do not find it funny to be essentially called a liar, a dick and all the other things you're insinuating or have actually said, obliquely or not. If you feel stupid, then that is your problem - I am in no way insinuating it, to the best of my knowledge, merely defeinding myself against this unprovoked attack for expressing my opinion in the way I see fit - for which, I hasten to add, I have never, not once, been reported or taken to task over, except by people that do not share my views - or in this case, understand that this site is primarily concerned with Progressive music.
So no hard feelings indeed.
prog-chick wrote:
We have wonderd off topic here although it perfectly illustrates the point, the "problem" with "Neo" (remember a fan generated genre and classification not one that the musicians think or care about) the problem is that some people will try their damndest to try look clever by making it look rubbish. It's a soft target, it always has been.
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I have NEVER tried to make the genre of Neo Prog look rubbish - I simply recognise that, as with any "subgenre" of Prog, there is more and less progressive examples, and examples I like more or less than others.
You're right that some see it as a soft target, and tar it all with the same brush - but maybe that's because an awful lot gets lumped into that category that doesn't really belong, alongsides the greats, such as Marilion, IQ and Twelfth Night, all of whom I have seen several times, and really admire their progressive works (although admittedly, I do not enjoy their non-Prog works).
Edited by Certif1ed - October 21 2008 at 15:12
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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