WOMEN

heyitsthatguy wrote: Falling Flower wrote: heyitsthatguy wrote: Falling Flower wrote: PaperDuck wrote: I live under the philosophy (of course I can't know this for sure, not having the requisite life experience) that until you have a good relationship with yourself, you'll never be able to have a good relationship with anyone else; and that if you have a good relationship with yourself, you don't need anyone to "complete" you. Yeah, it's very nice - I wouldn't give up my boyfriend for less than quite a few $100k ([IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align=middle>) - but it's not necessary. If we broke up I wouldn't go looking for someone else, trying to find a significant other - I'd go looking for another "soulmate." And men and women aren't as different as people seem to think... I like what you said there. [IMG]height=17 alt=Smile src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> I hear alot of people saying "I need a girlfriend.", and they would just date anyone, just so they wouldn't be alone. I don't really understand that. I don't ever feel the need to have a boyfriend (exept when I was 12 and wanted to impress my friends) and I don't really go looking for one. I'm very happy to have one now, but I didn't feel even a tiny bit of lonelyness in the two years that I chose to be single. It's nice to have someone to hug and kiss but just my friends are good enough for me too, or even just myself, or my reflection in the mirror. (yes I talk to my mirror [IMG]height=17 alt=Tongue src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>) I can enjoy my own company just as much, and sometimes even more, as someone elses. Well, speaking as one of the people who doesn't necessarily need a girlfriend but is still sorta desperate, I'm pretty sure that it stems more or less from me not really liking myself that much. It's not that I don't like what I do, it's more or less some sort of subconscious psychological defect that I'm currently going to the shrink for[IMG]height=17 alt="Big smile" src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle> I guess for some reason in the back of my head I figure that if I'm around someone else who really likes me a lot (i.e. a girlfriend) then it'll compensate for my disliking of myself and I won't be as miserable. Of course, with that reasoning, I'll still be miserable K well I'm the most narcisstic person I know so I can't relate to how you feel. ^.^ Thanks, that helps a lot[IMG]height=17 alt=Wacko src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley29.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>[IMG]height=17 alt=LOL src="http://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>

That's a natural reaction, thatguy, but it's not a good one to give in to. I was lucky in that I was unpopular enough to be forced to stay alone until I came to terms with myself (), but a few of my prettier/nicer/more socially acceptable friends weren't so lucky. The one I'm thinking of has been in relationships for pretty much two years straight, but not good ones... ones where the boyfriends were emotionally abusive, where she was just taking advantage of the guy's interest in her to be with someone, etc. Her experience (though she's only learned the lesson intellectually, not behaviorally, sigh) has been diametrically opposed to the idea that being with someone will make you feel better about herself: with each new relationship her self-worth lowers.

To use a metaphor she herself used, happiness = reality/expectations. She's getting happier, but only because her expectations are dropping at a rate faster than her reality.

You're welcome

moonlapse wrote: Promiscuity wasn't the issue though - it was whether to have sex before marriage, regardless if that occurred in 2 or 3 solid relationships or 20 or 50 one-night stands (which for the record I wouldn't recommend either). And let me try to be clear again - I am not advocating that the proper thing to do is to wait until marriage to have sex.  I was only supporting people that make that choice, and pointing to my own experience (even though that's not actually what I did, but pretty close) to say that it worked for me and can work for other people.  Wouldn't you agree it's best not to offer a blanket statement that waiting until marriage to have sex is definitely good or definitely bad? Ah, but the way you feel today is no guarantee you'll feel the same say 15 years down the road! Let's allow say a 5% chance that you grow in a different direction, or meet someone even better for you than your wife (hey she may be out there!), and say add 5% for the uncertainties of life over a 15-year period - stuff happens ...you may be going through a bad patch with her, have to go out of town on business with your hot colleague at the same time, a couple of drinks at the hotel bar and boom-shaka-laka you're in bed together and your wife eventually finds out .  Hey people are human and make mistakes, nobody's perfect, and people change and grow in ways they never expected. I wouldn't put cheating on my wife under "people make mistakes".  It's the most horrible thing I can contemplate.  If you're going through a "bad patch", you try to work it out and stay faithful.  If your relationship is truly over, the right thing to do is end it.  After that you can look for other relationships.  If you were in love with this woman for so long (and especially if you had kids together) I think you owe her that much at least. So if we say there's a 90% chance you'll want to be in the relationship in 15 years (still a good, optimistic number considering the time frame I'd say), then since there's 2 of you 90% * 90% = 81% call it 80%, so a 20% chance at least one of you will want out.  Not a big percentage, but still a significant possibility nonetheless. No offense, but I find your statement "there's a 90% chance I'll want to still be married in 15 years" arbitrary and meaningless. I know you'll disagree, and you can't put numbers on something like this etc., and that's fine.  And I know I look like the bad guy here because everyone wants to believe in living happily ever after , but I don't think my points are unreasonable either.

I certainly don't think you're the "bad guy".  This probably got a little too personal for me, and I apologize for it.  To return to generalities, I agree with you that people can and do change, and that relationships fail.  My only intent was to support the personal choices people make that closely correspond with my own life experience.  There's no 100% guarantee that it will work for them, but I think it's worth it if that's what their beliefs are.  I'm just confident in my own relationship because I've been in it for 10 years, we've both worked really hard at it (yes, you have to work to make a relationship work), we both know what we want out of life and that's being together in our own family unit.  I've got a great job, beautiful wife that loves me, terrific little baby boy, and a nice house.  When you've achieved your dreams, why would you want to go off in a "different direction"?

By the way, I understand where you're coming from, and feel free to respond to what I've said in this post, but I think I'm finished with this topic (mostly because I'm too busy to keep constructing these long diatribes boring everyone to tears.) 

Falling Flower wrote: PaperDuck wrote: I live under the philosophy (of course I can't know this for sure, not having the requisite life experience) that until you have a good relationship with yourself, you'll never be able to have a good relationship with anyone else; and that if you have a good relationship with yourself, you don't need anyone to "complete" you. Yeah, it's very nice - I wouldn't give up my boyfriend for less than quite a few $100k () - but it's not necessary. If we broke up I wouldn't go looking for someone else, trying to find a significant other - I'd go looking for another "soulmate." And men and women aren't as different as people seem to think... I like what you said there.   I hear alot of people saying "I need a girlfriend.", and they would just date anyone, just so they wouldn't be alone. I don't really understand that. I don't ever feel the need to have a boyfriend (exept when I was 12 and wanted to impress my friends) and I don't really go looking for one. I'm very happy to have one now, but I didn't feel even a tiny bit of lonelyness in the two years that I chose to be single. It's nice to have someone to hug and kiss but just my friends are good enough for me too, or even just myself, or my reflection in the mirror. (yes I talk to my mirror ) I can enjoy my own company just as much, and sometimes even more, as someone elses.

moonlapse wrote: [QUOTE=NaturalScience] Just because you have one partner doesn't mean you can't have a healthy sex life.  Probably, and as I was trying to say, I'm not here to pass judgement on anyone who leads a promiscuous life.  Just trying to offer a different perspective.  I have, however, known friends who engage in that behavior to suffer some rather drastic repercussions.  (I also have friends who do it and have no problems whatsoever). Promiscuity wasn't the issue though - it was whether to have sex before marriage, regardless if that occurred in 2 or 3 solid relationships or 20 or 50 one-night stands (which for the record I wouldn't recommend either). I do.  I don't want to be with anyone else for the rest of my life, and neither does she.  The trick is that we will go in many different directions and experience new things together, especially the major one of raising children. Too late - I already said "as long as we both shall live".  Ah, but the way you feel today is no guarantee you'll feel the same say 15 years down the road! Let's allow say a 5% chance that you grow in a different direction, or meet someone even better for you than your wife (hey she may be out there!), and say add 5% for the uncertainties of life over a 15-year period - stuff happens ...you may be going through a bad patch with her, have to go out of town on business with your hot colleague at the same time, a couple of drinks at the hotel bar and boom-shaka-laka you're in bed together and your wife eventually finds out .  Hey people are human and make mistakes, nobody's perfect, and people change and grow in ways they never expected. So if we say there's a 90% chance you'll want to be in the relationship in 15 years (still a good, optimistic number considering the time frame I'd say), then since there's 2 of you 90% * 90% = 81% call it 80%, so a 20% chance at least one of you will want out.  Not a big percentage, but still a significant possibility nonetheless. I know you'll disagree, and you can't put numbers on something like this etc., and that's fine.  And I know I look like the bad guy here because everyone wants to believe in living happily ever after , but I don't think my points are unreasonable either.

Some stories actually do end with "and they lives happily ever after."

I know a few examples of that in my own family.

moonlapse, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you and are you married?

I havn't a problem.

NaturalScience wrote: Just because you have one partner doesn't mean you can't have a healthy sex life.  Probably, and as I was trying to say, I'm not here to pass judgement on anyone who leads a promiscuous life.  Just trying to offer a different perspective.  I have, however, known friends who engage in that behavior to suffer some rather drastic repercussions.  (I also have friends who do it and have no problems whatsoever). Promiscuity wasn't the issue though - it was whether to have sex before marriage, regardless if that occurred in 2 or 3 solid relationships or 20 or 50 one-night stands (which for the record I wouldn't recommend either). I do.  I don't want to be with anyone else for the rest of my life, and neither does she.  The trick is that we will go in many different directions and experience new things together, especially the major one of raising children. Too late - I already said "as long as we both shall live".  Ah, but the way you feel today is no guarantee you'll feel the same say 15 years down the road! Let's allow say a 5% chance that you grow in a different direction, or meet someone even better for you than your wife (hey she may be out there!), and say add 5% for the uncertainties of life over a 15-year period - stuff happens ...you may be going through a bad patch with her, have to go out of town on business with your hot colleague at the same time, a couple of drinks at the hotel bar and boom-shaka-laka you're in bed together and your wife eventually finds out .  Hey people are human and make mistakes, nobody's perfect, and people change and grow in ways they never expected. So if we say there's a 90% chance you'll want to be in the relationship in 15 years (still a good, optimistic number considering the time frame I'd say), then since there's 2 of you 90% * 90% = 81% call it 80%, so a 20% chance at least one of you will want out.  Not a big percentage, but still a significant possibility nonetheless. I know you'll disagree, and you can't put numbers on something like this etc., and that's fine.  And I know I look like the bad guy here because everyone wants to believe in living happily ever after , but I don't think my points are unreasonable either.

I like what darksinger wrote on the previous page, I think it's pretty good advice (bolds mine):

darksinger wrote: Two people in a relationship are two unique individuals who are deciding to be together and still retain their uniqueness. As two individuals, they build trust and respect for each other. Winget does make a suggestion-do not make promises you cannot keep. Do not promise the moon and the stars because you cannot give them. Promise to respect each other, to listen to each other, to do things that are not impossible and that mean alot regardless. I think alot of bad relationships are because of impossible promises that cannot be kept and the disillusionment and frustration that follows.

moonlapse wrote: NaturalScience wrote: Look, if you don't want to wait or if you have great luck with the ladies and want to sow your wild oats in your youth, be my guest.  All I was doing was supporting those who choose otherwise, and saying there are normal people who don't consider sex the be all and end all of life. You don't have to consider sex the "be all and end all of life" to want some on a regular basis Just because you have one partner doesn't mean you can't have a healthy sex life.  Also, I wasn't referring to you in particular in my reply.  If it works for you, that's fine.  But I'd say that's more the exception than the rule for most guys. Probably, and as I was trying to say, I'm not here to pass judgement on anyone who leads a promiscuous life.  Just trying to offer a different perspective.  I have, however, known friends who engage in that behavior to suffer some rather drastic repercussions.  (I also have friends who do it and have no problems whatsoever). You can't say that you never will sleep with anyone else either.  People change, and in 10, 15, 20 years, you and your wife will both be different people.  Your attitude may be different, or hers will be, or one or both of you may want to go in different directions in life.  Who knows? I do.  I don't want to be with anyone else for the rest of my life, and neither does she.  The trick is that we will go in many different directions and experience new things together, especially the major one of raising children. Or, maybe you'll still want to be together - which is great.   But, you have to allow for the possibility that you won't.  Bottom line is never say never about anything. Too late - I already said "as long as we both shall live".

(drooling...)

What was that? Something about sex??