Why Is New Music Dying? |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15243 |
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You're an argumentative one aren't you? Streaming isn't the only way to make revenue through music. Those who rely on Spotify and such sites have no creativity in business models. I have friends who make thousands of dollars a month off royalties. I get artists contacting me often on this site, MMA and RYM to review their albums. I ask them if they make any $$$ and every single one says they make quite a bit off Bandcamp alone. You are right that many musicians make their living off of playing live, T-shirts and other merch and that has clearly been affected by the last 2 years and the collapse of the music industry. You're missing my point! The old paradigm has collapsed! It is incumbent of the artist to find a new business model and many are stepping up to the plate. Are you telling me newer bands like Black Midi, Squid and Injury Reserve (just to name a very few) aren't making $$$ simply selling streamed music when they have over 10,000 ratings on RYM alone? Come on! If artists like Joe and old school musicians are so concerned then why don't they revive the music industry themselves? They have the $$$. |
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SouthSideoftheSky
Special Collaborator Symphonic Team Joined: June 29 2008 Location: Close To The... Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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I read the article now. Where the author sees old vs. new, I see fads vs. the enduring musical legacy of some aging or dead artists. |
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SouthSideoftheSky
Special Collaborator Symphonic Team Joined: June 29 2008 Location: Close To The... Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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People are going to continue to make music for many more thousands of years to come, but the creative explosion that came in the late 60’s and early 70’s only happened yesterday. The “old” classic progressive Rock albums are still very much current and are going to remain so. Music that was recorded only 50 years ago is new! Edited by SouthSideoftheSky - January 24 2022 at 03:31 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17513 |
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Hi, It has always been that way since the late 70's with the huge corporate buy out of all the free form FM stations in America, all of which became hit buggers, and they still are!
What we're not taking into consideration is that the big names in music, now are about DISTRIBUTION, not development and investing on a new band or artist. For the most part, these days, everyone is better acquainted with what they have to do, even if it is to get a start on places like Bandcamp or Spotify, even if those places are not very good at sharing their numbers, and like record companies of old are lying left and right about how many and how much folks take to a piece of music ... and it is obvious why ... these are NOT INDEPENDENT folks. They are a part of the bigger music venues.
Radio stations have been on the decline for 40 years, and they went down even faster 30 years ago as the Internet took off. The sheer number of music threads on Fido and other places, alone, made the record companies and the radio stations look not only stupid but bizarre, playing the same things on a rotation, and somehow, folks think that those stations still have some value and are good ... they make it "sound" good, with commercials and attitudes that some folks think is cool, at least the younger crowd. The bigger issue, and I remember it well in Santa Barbara, was some drunk this or that calling the station to play Led Zeppelin, and that kid had the albums in their home right next to them! With the bad dope around today, I can't help joke that "fans" are still doing the same thing by continuously posting more and more about ELP's, YES, GENESIS and PINK FLOYD's toilet habits and what not! One comment about Aqualung, and there will be 27 postings within the hour, so to speak! In other words, I am not convinced that these folks really have a good listening habit, since they know this piece, but don't post, or know a whole lot about many others, specially within a "progressive" board.
Almost all new material I hear comes from suggestions in this board. Great example is that medieval thread and I have listened to anything in there I did not have or know ... it is that good, and went out and bought at least 2 CD's off that material. CHECK THAT ... about 50% of new things I get are from Space Pirate Radio, because no one that I have ever heard has a better EAR for music than he does, and he has shown it for 48 years (birthday show tonight!). AND, I don't do "songs". I only do albums, and Guy's show is the best place for that, because his show is not exactly about a song, although these days it is a bit more song oriented than he ever was, but still the material he plays is far out. As an example, is folks thinking that "krautrock" died many years ago ... and all this says is that folks don't even realize that it is still going on strong in Germany and then some! But you would never know that from any of the "progressive" music shows all over the Internet! Streaming, otherwise, as meant by some services, is not what I like to do, mainly because those folks don't know music, and they don't care, and their suggestions are so far and away off the mark as to be really sick. Times, they are a changing ... even if it is 50 years later, and we have to get used to the new guitar in folks music (Dylan) ... so to speak. The main issue I have with it all, is that just because the guitar is there, people automatically think that it is just like another person who supposedly did it better ... and that comparison is a horrible fallacy .... THE INSTRUMENTS ARE THE SAME ... what do you expect? A mouse screech? I, honestly, and I take the hint from this board and how many folks will post on this and that (top stuff) and not have anything to say about anything else. It's called conditioning ... and it's something that has been a part of society for thousands of years. I'm not convinced that this is going to get any better until the day that folks at PA and other Progressive sites, grow up past their Walt Disney definition of Progressive Music ... and then we probably would lose some folks because we don't talk enough about the top five and about the giant hogweed, as if PG and other English folks did not use those kind of connotations for years before him! But all of a sudden it is important and valuable, and even Lewis Carroll is an idiot ... specially when we don't even realize that he was writing stuff for children ... and thinking it is dopey stuff is a bit on the weird side of things for me. It doesn't have to be so. I'm not sure that there is a proper answer and my comments are based on a life of radio listening, however I was lucky (as were a handful that still listen to Space Pirate Radio), and in those days Guy played full albums and gave the artist a nice send off ... specially Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream, but they were not the only ones. Almost all of the German stuff was played left and right and in its entirety. I doubt that there have been shows that were that progressive and experimental anywhere else, and not a compromised show that has to play something "familiar" in order to make sure their audience is still there! THAT is the problem! You either stick to the art, or not. AND, radio is not about the art, and never was! Anyone expecting to get something from it, won't likely find much ... unless you know where to look, and most don't even try!
Edited by moshkito - January 24 2022 at 00:23 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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I , as per the norm, concur 100% with my Lazman ! As a fellow "veteran progger", I can state that there are so many wonderful releases that continue to boggle my mind. Got to find them, though and that may be the hardest part, there are so many out there still left to be discovered.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10618 |
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Streaming companies are a rip-off for everyone. They are the new top-40, only its a larger number now.
RYM is garbage dump, anyone can write reviews there and it shows, Allmusic is much better, they actually have knowledgeable writers. Thanks to the internet, about the only way for musicians to make money anymore is through teaching lessons on the internet. That is how I make my living. I like a lot of new music, that is mostly what I listen to, but when it comes to today's popular music, Joe Walsh got it exactly right. |
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13056 |
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You clearly don't get how musicians are getting screwed by streaming companies, with their portions of a penny payouts.
My friend, a poster on PA, was an example. And I know exactly what RYM is, as I've written reviews there for years -- so spare me the "peer rated" claptrap. It's the same conglomeration of knowledgeable listeners and silly doofuses who review on PA. Again, are you a musician? You never answered. It would seem you are not, because you have some skewed views on how musicians have to make money (playing live and selling hard copy at the shows is the usual income).
He had a lot of good points, and he was talking in generalities -- just like Rick Beato was talking in generalities about the boring pop music being produced. Their points hit home on the general state of modern music, and not the specificities of certain bands. I can tell you that many musicians I know had a really tough time over the last 2 years due to venues limiting live events or closing down outright. Hell, I didn't play out all through 2020, and didn't get back to it until the Summer of 2021. But I play out now for sheer enjoyment of playing live rather than for income. To say Joe is "clueless" is about as clueless as your comment: "The new paradigm means that any given artist can make a decent living selling LESS music." That right there tells me you have no idea what you're talking about. Unless, of course, you think living in a van down by the river is "a decent living." |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15243 |
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^ you clearly don't understand how the music industry operates. For the most part record companies steal the product and give the artists a pittance. RYM is a peer rated site and shows where the public's tastes are. Some of the top indie artists are doing quite well. You're really saying that because your friend hasn't made $$$ that nobody else has? LOL I'm not saying Joe isn't a legend. I have several of his albums. I love his music. I'm saying that he's out of touch with the reality of the modern music business model and clearly doesn't expand his musical horizons from his clueless comments.
Edited by siLLy puPPy - January 23 2022 at 19:39 |
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The Dark Elf
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Quoting a dubious RYM "custom chart" where most of the acts have ratings in the hundreds (or less) does not in any way indicate success, or monetary stability for that matter (but it's nice to know Neil Young is as popular as ever, with 3 releases in the "top ten" LOL).
The fact they have a discography means the record companies did release their albums. Worthwhile artists of previous generations have always been rediscovered by a new generation. There were many old bluesmen working factory jobs (like John Lee Hooker) or sharecropping not far from the plantations where their grandparents were slaves (like Mississippi John Hurt) that were brought out of obscurity by rock musicians of the 60s and 70s, allowing for some financial stability in their waning years.
Who's romanticizing, you or Joe? Joe worked his a** off to get where he's at. It's laughable you think he just plopped into a "lofty position". He's played in several bands since he was a teenager in the mid-60s. He was ten years into his career before he even joined the Eagles (I assume with your limited knowledge of the musician that's who you refer to as "someone who made millions by being in a band that was pretty much force fed to the public with constant radio play"). Are you the type of prog snob who thinks that success demeans the artist? Oh, Hotel California sold 32 million copies worldwide because everyone was force fed the album! You're probably pissed that Pink Floyd released Dark Side of the Moon, because they were no longer experimental. And yes, I think you're romanticizing more so than Joe. Are you a musician? I ask because I know and have played with musicians all over the States, and I'm friends with other musicians worldwide. I ask because, humorously enough, a friend (who was once active on PA) sent me a FB message about the digital sales of his latest album (he'll remain anonymous, and if he wants to comment, he can). It went as follows: ORDER TOTAL: $8.00 REVENUE SHARE: -1.20 APPLIED TO YOUR REVENUE SHARED BALANCE: -6.35 PAYMENT PROCESSOR FEE: -0.45 YOUR SHARE: 0.00 USD I only play out occasionally these days, and I don't record any longer, but I'll wager there's a lot of this bullsh*t going on. In fact, I know so: There are hundreds more articles on the subject. It's nice that you can get music with a keystroke, but it doesn't mean the musicians are getting any of the money. From what I've read, it's actually easier for Spotify and Apple to f*ck musicians than it ever was selling hard copy.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15243 |
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I remember Gene Simmons similarly bitching about the new world of music. Translation. They are dinosaurs who don't know how to adapt to the modern world. And personally i don't give a flying f----
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Mascodagama
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Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15243 |
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Nah, he's wrong. He was in The Eagles and enjoyed great success. MOST bands from the 70s, 80s and 90s experienced ZERO success. The old game was ALL or NOTHING. The new paradigm means that any given artist can make a decent living selling LESS music. There are plenty of modern bands doing quite well. He's saying all modern music is mindless crap with programmed drums. He's totally out of touch. All you have to do is check out the top albums of 2021 on RYM and see there are THOUSANDS of ratings for many albums that sold crap loads. Maybe not millions but an independent artist makes ALL the $$$. Music has never been a profitable career choice for the majority of bands. Classic bands and albums will ALWAYS sell albums to new generations. Let's face it, The Beatles and Pink Floyd are timeless. Likewise many bands that had ZERO success in the 70s now are making money off their decades old albums via word of mouth on the internet alone. The record companies did NOTHING for them. The word of mouth fanbase has done EVERYTHING for them. Old Joe is romanticizing the way things used to be from the lofty position of someone who made millions by being in a band that was pretty much force fed to the public with constant radio play. Personally i love the modern era where the sky is the limit. I can check out music from all of history simply by typing on my keyboard. And some of the new music is beyond brilliant. True one has to wade through seas of crap at times but the gems are well worth the treasure hunt. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65261 |
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Unexpected but, I think, welcome news. If it weren't for what had come before them, the Beatles would have been no more than a tinny rock/vocal band. "What's past is prologue." |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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The Dark Elf
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He's not wrong, particularly regarding the lack of money in digital sales. Most bands have to play live to make ends meet, but the amount of venues with live music has been shrinking for decades, which became more pronounced over the Plague Years. And he's not talking about some obscure prog bands lurking on Bandcamp, but to music in general. Pop music requires 8 or 9 producers and about as many writing the songs by committee with formulaic preprogrammed sh*t dominating what's left of the commercial airwaves and pushed by the record industry. This same discussion is taking place over on the Hoffman site, and here's an interesting take by Rick Beato. And again, he's not at all wrong referring to music in general: |
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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Atavachron
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^ Yeah not exactly a pillar of musicologic philosophy. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15243 |
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^ oh gawd. Old Joe obviously hasn't stepped out of his old school paradigm to see what lurks behind the magic curtain! He's probably never even heard of prog hehe
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dwill123
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Cristi
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True. I made a list on another site of great albums of 2021, I got to 109. That's a lot of good music(rock, metal and all sorts of prog).
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10618 |
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I'm an old guy and I listen to a lot of new jazz and RnB, also new music that mixes jazz, electronica and RnB all together, lots of modern ambient jazzy stuff etc.
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Argentinfonico
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 05 2021 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 368 |
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What an interesting debate. Beyond the terms of economics and the motives that drive record label owners to handle everything this way, we could say that we are in the "involution" stage, which is part of the nature of evolution. I firmly believe that the main reason is the limitation of creativity within the artistic world, that is, of the artists. The ingenuity of the human being is gradually being dwarfed by the use of technology and nearby screens. We are exchanging roles between reality and virtuality. Every artist that today is created and molded to the shape of the record label owners was put there by the choice of others. Music has been developing strings for years thanks to commerce, and this would obviously end in catastrophes. There comes a point where the writers of the basic songs that are successful today are asked for something different, and they are not able to deliver it. And, to further minimize what today predominates in the ears of the whole world is impossible, due to its gigantic smallness. Another thing that may seem stupid but is not: people are waking up little by little. I don't know if it is a growing percentage, but the people who can become enlightened and manage to escape from that cloud of fantasies and power, spread it as much as they can. This is partly thanks to record labels releasing reissues and showing people the level that music can reach in the hands of good artists. If you ever sit down to listen to Mozart and get excited about a piece, how could you be so ignorant and masochistic to go back to listening to crass music? At some point this was going to get boring: it's been the same thing for years!
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