Maybe instead of looking at it as dying, perhaps look at it as diversifying into many different niches.

In the old days record companies decided what would be presented to the public and put a lot of money into their projects. In some ways this yielded some excellent music but only within certain parameters.

Sure there are no new Beatles or Pink Floyd but there are thousands and thousands of newer artists making a living on their own terms.

As a voracious music consumer, i have to say that there has NEVER been so much music to experience from everywhere around the world.

Perspective ;)

It's not the case, based on my observations, that this means new music is dying. I think it is actually flourishing, but outside the ecosystem of major labels and publishers. My tastes are fairly esoteric but I could easily name dozens of new or newish artists who are releasing superb music within the niches I follow, and I'm discovering new ones all the time. These people are releasing their music via Bandcamp and/or niche labels covering specialised interests. They are never going to get rich and famous by doing it - I think the days when someone like Frank Zappa would end up with a Rolls Royce and a mansion are definitively over - but they're doing what they love. And if you're not going to make much money regardless, there's little incentive to compromise your vision due to commercial considerations - you may as well follow your muse wherever it may take you.

Don't get me wrong, I would love it if more musicians - especially in the kind of marginal genres I follow - could live from their art. I suspect that where that is possible at all now it usually involves a frenetic lifestyle of juggling multiple projects, sessions, teaching. But the heartwarming thing is that this isn't stopping talented people making great new music. And the Internet is letting those people find an audience that transcends national barriers, even if it's rarely a large one.

Thank you!

The amount of great stuff out there is truly remarkable.

What an interesting debate. Beyond the terms of economics and the motives that drive record label owners to handle everything this way, we could say that we are in the "involution" stage, which is part of the nature of evolution. I firmly believe that the main reason is the limitation of creativity within the artistic world, that is, of the artists. The ingenuity of the human being is gradually being dwarfed by the use of technology and nearby screens. We are exchanging roles between reality and virtuality. Every artist that today is created and molded to the shape of the record label owners was put there by the choice of others. Music has been developing strings for years thanks to commerce, and this would obviously end in catastrophes. There comes a point where the writers of the basic songs that are successful today are asked for something different, and they are not able to deliver it. And, to further minimize what today predominates in the ears of the whole world is impossible, due to its gigantic smallness.

Another thing that may seem stupid but is not: people are waking up little by little. I don't know if it is a growing percentage, but the people who can become enlightened and manage to escape from that cloud of fantasies and power, spread it as much as they can. This is partly thanks to record labels releasing reissues and showing people the level that music can reach in the hands of good artists. If you ever sit down to listen to Mozart and get excited about a piece, how could you be so ignorant and masochistic to go back to listening to crass music? At some point this was going to get boring: it's been the same thing for years!

True. 

I made a list on another site of great albums of 2021, I got to 109. That's a lot of good music(rock, metal and all sorts of prog). 

^ oh gawd. Old Joe obviously hasn't stepped out of his old school paradigm to see what lurks behind the magic curtain!

He's probably never even heard of prog hehe

^ Yeah not exactly a pillar of musicologic philosophy.

He's not wrong, particularly regarding the lack of money in digital sales. Most bands have to play live to make ends meet, but the amount of venues with live music has been shrinking for decades, which became more pronounced over the Plague Years.  And he's not talking about some obscure prog bands lurking on Bandcamp, but to music in general. Pop music requires 8 or 9 producers and about as many writing the songs by committee with formulaic preprogrammed sh*t dominating what's left of the commercial airwaves and pushed by the record industry. 

This same discussion is taking place over on the Hoffman site, and here's an interesting take by Rick Beato. And again, he's not at all wrong referring to music in general:

Unexpected but, I think, welcome news.   If it weren't for what had come before them, the Beatles would have been no more than a tinny rock/vocal band.  

Nah, he's wrong. He was in The Eagles and enjoyed great success. MOST bands from the 70s, 80s and 90s experienced ZERO success. The old game was ALL or NOTHING.

The new paradigm means that any given artist can make a decent living selling LESS music.

There are plenty of modern bands doing quite well. He's saying all modern music is mindless crap with programmed drums. He's totally out of touch.

All you have to do is check out the top albums of 2021 on RYM and see there are THOUSANDS of ratings for many albums that sold crap loads. Maybe not millions but an independent artist makes ALL the $$$.

http://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/2021/incl:live,archival/" rel="nofollow - https://rateyourmusic.com/charts/top/album/2021/incl:live,archival/

Music has never been a profitable career choice for the majority of bands.

Classic bands and albums will ALWAYS sell albums to new generations. Let's face it, The Beatles and Pink Floyd are timeless.

Likewise many bands that had ZERO success in the 70s now are making money off their decades old albums via word of mouth on the internet alone. The record companies did NOTHING for them. The word of mouth fanbase has done EVERYTHING for them.

Old Joe is romanticizing the way things used to be from the lofty position of someone who made millions by being in a band that was pretty much force fed to the public with constant radio play.

Personally i love the modern era where the sky is the limit. I can check out music from all of history simply by typing on my keyboard.

And some of the new music is beyond brilliant.

True one has to wade through seas of crap at times but the gems are well worth the treasure hunt.

I remember Gene Simmons similarly bitching about the new world of music.

Translation. They are dinosaurs who don't know how to adapt to the modern world.

And personally i don't give a flying f----

Quoting a dubious RYM "custom chart" where most of the acts have ratings in the hundreds (or less) does not in any way indicate success, or monetary stability for that matter (but it's nice to know Neil Young is as popular as ever, with 3 releases in the "top ten" LOL). 

siLLy puPPy wrote: Music has never been a profitable career choice for the majority of bands. Classic bands and albums will ALWAYS sell albums to new generations. Let's face it, The Beatles and Pink Floyd are timeless. Likewise many bands that had ZERO success in the 70s now are making money off their decades old albums via word of mouth on the internet alone. The record companies did NOTHING for them. The word of mouth fanbase has done EVERYTHING for them.

The fact they have a discography means the record companies did release their albums. Worthwhile artists of previous generations have always been rediscovered by a new generation. There were many old bluesmen working factory jobs (like John Lee Hooker) or sharecropping not far from the plantations where their grandparents were slaves (like Mississippi John Hurt) that were brought out of obscurity by rock musicians of the 60s and 70s, allowing for some financial stability in their waning years.

siLLy puPPy wrote: Old Joe is romanticizing the way things used to be from the lofty position of someone who made millions by being in a band that was pretty much force fed to the public with constant radio play. Personally i love the modern era where the sky is the limit. I can check out music from all of history simply by typing on my keyboard.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

^ you clearly don't understand how the music industry operates. For the most part record companies steal the product and give the artists a pittance.

RYM is a peer rated site and shows where the public's tastes are. Some of the top indie artists are doing quite well. You're really saying that because your friend hasn't made $$$ that nobody else has? LOL

I'm not saying Joe isn't a legend. I have several of his albums. I love his music. I'm saying that he's out of touch with the reality of the modern music business model and clearly doesn't expand his musical horizons from his clueless comments.

You clearly don't get how musicians are getting screwed by streaming companies, with their portions of a penny payouts.

siLLy puPPy wrote: RYM is a peer rated site and shows where the public's tastes are. Some of the top indie artists are doing quite well. You're really saying that because your friend hasn't made $$$ that nobody else has? LOL

My friend, a poster on PA, was an example. And I know exactly what RYM is, as I've written reviews there for years -- so spare me the "peer rated" claptrap. It's the same conglomeration of knowledgeable listeners and silly doofuses who review on PA. Again, are you a musician? You never answered. It would seem you are not, because you have some skewed views on how musicians have to make money (playing live and selling hard copy at the shows is the usual income).

siLLy puPPy wrote: I'm not saying Joe isn't a legend. I have several of his albums. I love his music. I'm saying that he's out of touch with the reality of the modern music business model and clearly doesn't expand his musical horizons from his clueless comments.

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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...

I , as per the norm, concur 100% with my Lazman ! As a fellow "veteran progger", I can state that 

there are so many wonderful releases that continue to boggle my mind. Got to find them, though and that may be the hardest part, there are so many out there still left to be discovered.  

Hi,

It has always been that way since the late 70's with the huge corporate buy out of all the free form FM stations in America, all of which became hit buggers, and they still are!

MortSahlFan wrote: ... Even major record labels are participating in the shift, with Universal Music, Sony Music, Warner Music, and others buying up publishing catalogs—investing huge sums in old tunes that, in an earlier day, would have been used to launch new artists. ...

What we're not taking into consideration is that the big names in music, now are about DISTRIBUTION, not development and investing on a new band or artist. For the most part, these days, everyone is better acquainted with what they have to do, even if it is to get a start on places like Bandcamp or Spotify, even if those places are not very good at sharing their numbers, and like record companies of old are lying left and right about how many and how much folks take to a piece of music ... and it is obvious why ... these are NOT INDEPENDENT folks. They are a part of the bigger music venues.

MortSahlFan wrote: ...     Radio stations are contributing to the stagnation, putting fewer new songs into their rotation, or—judging by the offerings on my satellite radio lineup—completely ignoring new music in favor of old hits. ...

Radio stations have been on the decline for 40 years, and they went down even faster 30 years ago as the Internet took off. The sheer number of music threads on Fido and other places, alone, made the record companies and the radio stations look not only stupid but bizarre, playing the same things on a rotation, and somehow, folks think that those stations still have some value and are good ... they make it "sound" good, with commercials and attitudes that some folks think is cool, at least the younger crowd.

The bigger issue, and I remember it well in Santa Barbara, was some drunk this or that calling the station to play Led Zeppelin, and that kid had the albums in their home right next to them! With the bad dope around today, I can't help joke that "fans" are still doing the same thing by continuously posting more and more about ELP's, YES, GENESIS and PINK FLOYD's toilet habits and what not! One comment about Aqualung, and there will be 27 postings within the hour, so to speak! In other words, I am not convinced that these folks really have a good listening habit, since they know this piece, but don't post, or know a whole lot about many others, specially within a "progressive" board.

MortSahlFan wrote: ... Many older people don't use streaming to listen to music. I talk to a LOT of people (just like here), and many still play their records, and others I know took their CDs and burned/digitized them into mp3's (some flac) so they can move them wherever and never have to purchase them again. ...

Almost all new material I hear comes from suggestions in this board. Great example is that medieval thread and I have listened to anything in there I did not have or know ... it is that good, and went out and bought at least 2 CD's off that material. CHECK THAT ... about 50% of new things I get are from Space Pirate Radio, because no one that I have ever heard has a better EAR for music than he does, and he has shown it for 48 years (birthday show tonight!). AND, I don't do "songs". I only do albums, and Guy's show is the best place for that, because his show is not exactly about a song, although these days it is a bit more song oriented than he ever was, but still the material he plays is far out. As an example, is folks thinking that "krautrock" died many years ago ... and all this says is that folks don't even realize that it is still going on strong in Germany and then some! But you would never know that from any of the "progressive" music shows all over the Internet!

Streaming, otherwise, as meant by some services, is not what I like to do, mainly because those folks don't know music, and they don't care, and their suggestions are so far and away off the mark as to be really sick.

Times, they are a changing ... even if it is 50 years later, and we have to get used to the new guitar in folks music (Dylan) ... so to speak. 

The main issue I have with it all, is that just because the guitar is there, people automatically think that it is just like another person who supposedly did it better ... and that comparison is a horrible fallacy .... THE INSTRUMENTS ARE THE SAME ... what do you expect? A mouse screech?

I, honestly, and I take the hint from this board and how many folks will post on this and that (top stuff) and not have anything to say about anything else. It's called conditioning ... and it's something that has been a part of society for thousands of years. I'm not convinced that this is going to get any better until the day that folks at PA and other Progressive sites, grow up past their Walt Disney definition of Progressive Music ... and then we probably would lose some folks because we don't talk enough about the top five and about the giant hogweed, as if PG and other English folks did not use those kind of connotations for years before him! But all of a sudden it is important and valuable, and even Lewis Carroll is an idiot ... specially when we don't even realize that he was writing stuff for children ... and thinking it is dopey stuff is a bit on the weird side of things for me. It doesn't have to be so.

I'm not sure that there is a proper answer and my comments are based on a life of radio listening, however I was lucky (as were a handful that still listen to Space Pirate Radio), and in those days Guy played full albums and gave the artist a nice send off ... specially Klaus Schulze and Tangerine Dream, but they were not the only ones. Almost all of the German stuff was played left and right and in its entirety. I doubt that there have been shows that were that progressive and experimental anywhere else, and not a compromised show that has to play something "familiar" in order to make sure their audience is still there! THAT is the problem! You either stick to the art, or not. AND, radio is not about the art, and never was! Anyone expecting to get something from it, won't likely find much ... unless you know where to look, and most don't even try!

I read the article now. Where the author sees old vs. new, I see fads vs. the enduring musical legacy of some aging or dead artists.

You're an argumentative one aren't  you?

Streaming isn't the only way to make revenue through music.

Those who rely on Spotify and such sites have no creativity in business models.

I have friends who make thousands of dollars a month off royalties.

I get artists contacting me often on this site, MMA and RYM to review their albums.

I ask them if they make any $$$ and every single one says they make quite a bit off Bandcamp alone.

You are right that many musicians make their living off of playing live, T-shirts and other merch and that has clearly been affected by the last 2 years and the collapse of the music industry.

You're missing my point! The old paradigm has collapsed! It is incumbent of the artist to find a new business model and many are stepping up to the plate.

Are you telling me newer bands like Black Midi, Squid and Injury Reserve (just to name a very few) aren't making $$$ simply selling streamed music when they have over 10,000 ratings on RYM alone? Come on!

If artists like Joe and old school musicians are so concerned then why don't they revive the music industry themselves? They have the $$$.

That could be said about this site too or any site that allows anyone to contribute.

Personally i've discovered more prog on RYM than here. This database has been woefully incomplete and i've suggested dozens of artists that have been included here having discovered them on RYM.

Same goes for jazz and metal.

The RYM site is totally up to date and more and more users prefer that site because it is designed exponentially better than any of M@X's sites.

Just an example, Close To The Edge has over 22,000 ratings currently whereas on PA it only has 4770.

AllMusic is good but not great. Horrible site layout and some of the reviews are totally wrong as far as facts go.

What makes PA worth visiting is the cool peeps who use it and PA does have some artists that haven't yet been added to RYM especially some of the newer ones.

RYM has been getting better at deleting stupid reviews that are worthless.

Hi,

It's been said that huge creative moments within a century only happen once or twice. I think the 20th century had movies for one, and then the music craze thing that ended up birthing "progressive" for us, is the 2nd ... and I say that because music was not the only "art" that carried it. And this is the part that folks tend to overlook. A "scene" is much more than a fad, and lasts a lot longer. As an example, the punk thing was a fad, and died as quickly as it came up. "Progressive" was not a fad, but a direct result of the freedom and attitude that many other artists had, going back to the late 50's and early 60's, and already visible in many areas, in film, theater, literature and other disciplines. Rock music was one of those arts. The same as "jazz" although some are finding that the streak of jazz proceeded the 50's even, though finding recordings of it then, is difficult specially when the movie studios OWNED all publishing abilities and they were not going to fund anyone but their own "stars" ... so you have a "star is born" with a fake color screen in the background, and we find it far out! Plastic is already replacing the reality!

Hi,

I think that you are mentioning the problem without realizing it. Some of those bands make some money or not is the issue ... and this also goes for Spotify and Bandcamp. 

THE IRS and a revenue counting institution (like the English, French or German) DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO GET NUMBERS, from you so they can tax you. Not to mention that you probably say that you sold 5 and in actuality you sold 10! The streaming services, DO NOT show their numbers, and do not post it, and it is all "hidden" and if my name was the IRS, I would put a stop to that and close down the streaming service the minute I saw them cheat. Of course, the real problem here is that it hurts the musicians more, but you can not assume that the next streaming service is more honest than the next!

The day that "purchases" are listed and shown PROPERLY, is the day that we will find that ... GOOD TRUCKING RIDDANCE OF THE RECORD COMPANIES! 

New music is not in a death spiral ... what is on a death spiral is our continuing being stuck in the time warp song playing the same top five and refusing to give the new things a SOLID listen in order to realize that there is something good here!

It will be a cold day in hell, when any streaming service is honest enough to show the numbers "LIVE" so you know exactly what is selling and what is not. C'mon, you really think Apple was stupid to go after The Beatles and many others? The main issue is that Paul was not stupid and FORCED a very high number, because he knew that Apple, like any other company would lie and cheat so much to not give out the payouts that they should to any artist out there. 

How do we know, how many of this or that were sold? 

The day we have a way of telling, will be the day that you know, for sure, that record company controlling stooges (all of these services are a part of an old record company, except Apple) can no longer lie and cheat ... but in places like ... well ... you really think things are better in America, than England, than Japan? Think again, and look at the castles and cars and planes of rich folks! Many did not make this by accident!

^ i honestly know nothing about streaming services because i NEVER use them but from what i've been hearing, it's nothing more than publicity

As far as more reliable sources like Bandcamp and downloading services, it's totally traceable and don't forget that many artists still sell old fashioned vinyl and CDs. Some even still do cassettes!

Since i don't rely on streaming services or someone else to play music for me i would just suggest that although the modern world is very different than the past, there have never been more opportunities.

These days one has to take a proactive role in discovering new music and not rely on radio or other sources of spoon fed music. Having said that we do have an excellent college radio station here in the Bay Area which plays some excellent obscure stuff! But that's the exception for sure.

Let's face it, unless an artist takes control of the business aspect of his / her art form, there will always be exploitation and that is just as true today as it was throughout the entire music industry's existence.

Looking at the larger picture though, artists now have the ability to be completely independent from all external sources of potential exploitation. If artists are unwilling or unable to take advantage of these developments is a completely separate topic.

As far as the mainstream music industry is concerned, it's true that it is vile and disgusting. An industry that once produced The Beatles, Led Zeppelin and Queen have put all their energy into dance pop like Lady Gaga or "controlled" hip hop styles like Kanye West. In that regard music has deteriorated but why even focus on the powers that were when the new paradigm is still in its birth pangs?

Somehow i feel the new musical paradigm will evolve into something even better than we ever could've imagined but it will involve escaping much larger systems of control beyond the world of music.

100% 

Bingo! I totally agree. There's simply too much excellent music to keep up with!

Periods of transition in history are always awkward.

I'm proud of musicians for hanging in there despite all the obstaclese!

Go team!!!

What exactly did Paul do?

Hi,

Careful with the words here ... check out the worst business decisions EVER made ... and the Beatles and Rolling Stones are 1 and 2. Led Zeppelin would also be there were it not for the father of progressive music who was a helper and friend to a young Jimmy Page. Queen was later. Lady Gaga, I can't speak about and won't. Kanye, is a part of the black rise in music and control.

I don't think that things have deteriorated at all ... except that we keep thinking that those were great and everything else is not. The real issue is that we have not given new things, and different things a good EAR and chance. You've heard your "favorite" 50 times ... but you have not heard a new something 2 or 3 times, and it has not grown on you because of it.

Music HAS NEVER DIED for hundreds and thousands of years. What has died is our ability to appreciate it and hear it. Opera is not dead ... our generation just won't hear it because it lacks the emotion that you want to see that is in rock music. Until this improves and a new Verdi and a new Puccini show up, the chances are that we will never look at that kind of music as valuable and important ... but for a long time, even its arias were some of the best known songs around.

We have to stop thinking that the world around us is dead, or dying. It's VERY ALIVE but we don't see that tree in our backyard doing great, or the new flowers about to start springing in the next couple of weeks. It's the same thing ... do we notice it? Or not.

We choose to not look at new music properly with the same verve and desire that we do the top 5 ... and if we did, we would not be saying that it was dead ... it's quite alive ... but not at PA where the articles would really only want to say that what was "progressive" for a few hours, is now dead. IT'S NOT DEAD ... it's there in a different way that we have not attuned out ears to, and worse ... we won't!

Maybe you'll answer this question.

Who is the father of progressive music?

Hi,

He was known for Aphrodite's Child and Gentle Giant at the start ... you could say that the man had an ear for music! He had been doing a lot of studio stuff in London, and Jimmy Page was one of his studio players. Later he also worked with Gong, and was with them in their West Coast tour in 1999 when they did the SF Progressive Music Show, of which he was a brief speaker. He said at Gilly's birthday party that he was not the one. The music was!

Hi,

Demanded the highest price ever paid an artist ... and there were other details I'm sure. Apple was appalled since it was almost twice the next artist they paid (Prince I believe it was), but they knew they did not have a choice and they would still make some money over it. But Paul and the Beatles would never learn how many times this or that song was sold, or how many albums were bought. But I sincerely doubt that sending someone like Paul a check at the end of the year for $632 dollars, is probably going to take the Beatles off Apple right away.

Does he have a name?

He's referring to Giorgio Gomelsky.

+1

I watched it. Very interesting overview.