Removing member rating stars as punishment - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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suitkees

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 9050

Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:17

Man Overboard wrote:

suitkees wrote:

Well, you have an interesting way of misrepresenting things...

I could say the same about you.

Really? Be explicit. Where did I misrepresent something? I really get the impression that you are a very obtuse person. I never talked about "prog descriptions", not here, not in that other thread. And again you try to accuse Logan of something that, at least for what is visible for all forum members, has never taken place.

Apparently, your music has been considered but rejected for inclusion on PA (after your first presentation in the "unsigned artists" section). You haven't been attacked at all, but just turned down for inclusion on PA; you turn it into a crusade.

In the other thread, and implicitly here again, you also claim respect because of your 14 years of membership on PA, but respect is not something to claim, it is something you earn. For me it is not that much a question about "new music not being considered" but more about your abhorrent attitude.

But all this is not addressing the OP's post, I'm sorry about that.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum

Man Overboard View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830

Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:01

Logan wrote:

That's not my perspective at all.

Contact another admin by PM to try to make your case if you haven't already. I don't feel that I was abusive, yet you were very insulting towards me when I tried to clarify my action and express my concerns. And your thread was something of a trainwreck before I supposedly tried to derail it from my perspective. It was misplaced, and I provided the link that made the case. I often move threads, but I don't always take the time to explain why as I often lack the time.

I had even tried to offer some understanding with my first post when I responded to others by saying, "I read it as humorous though. I quite commonly joke around with a straight-face often employing absurdity and hyperbole. There are so many different ways that people interpret intent." I think I may have been too generous.

Mine was general comment, though, about contacting any admin if people have concerns or wish to contest an action. If I wished to contest an action by an admin, then I would contact another admin.

I would rather you contact other admin about this and they can investigate and assess your grievances. That is better procedure and if it is politely and thoughtfully handled, it is more likely to lead to a positive outcome.

Since you feel comfortable replying to me, I will reply to you. It is imbalanced to suggest it any other way. That's one of the things I took issue with in your PM--you said harsh, arbitrary, punitive things, and told me I was not to respond. Now, in public, you're doing a softer version of same.

The issue is that my avant-garde prog music's credibility was established here on ProgArchives almost fifteen years ago, yet you suggest and enforce your uneducated judgment of it as "non-prog", apparently because of the (in)actions of the collab teams. It's not as if I screenshotted their damning Collab Zone messages, or named and shamed a single team member for their Collab Zone activity. I didn't mention any Collab Zone activity regarding any other artist's music--what exactly did I breach, security- or trust-wise?

You've never listened to my music. You take the false high ground while refusing to engage with the core issue I present--which is how I described you previously in this thread.

Logan wrote:

I did offer a formal warning due to your lack of discretion when discussing your perception of what goes on in the collab zone. I did not remove your Prog Reviewer status until I had consulted with the other admin (was concerned about your collab zone privileges -- I hope for a sense of discretion and that we can trust those people).

Note the edit you added: your faux-Brit insinuation attacks the discretion and trust of the one whose privileges you're 'concerned' about without a single example of an actual breach, yet you cannot even be trusted to answer a straightforward inquiry in a straightforward manner.

If another admin wishes to join the thread (the purpose of I Have A Question For You......? ), they are welcome, but accountability is not something you're exempt from. I'll note that I also reported a post or two in the other thread for attacks and derailing, but unless your response was the admin response, there was no admin response.

Edited by Man Overboard - September 29 2021 at 12:11

Logan

Forum & Site Admin Group

Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 37232

Posted: September 29 2021 at 11:53

That's not my perspective at all.

I did offer a formal warning due to your lack of discretion when discussing your perception of what goes on in the collab zone. I did not remove your Prog Reviewer status until I had consulted with the other admin (was concerned about your collab zone privileges -- I hope for a sense of discretion and that we can trust those people).

Mine was a general comment, though, about contacting any admin if people have concerns or wish to contest an action. And if I wished to contest an action by an admin, then I would contact another admin to ask for their perspective and assessment.

Edited by Logan - September 29 2021 at 12:00

Man Overboard View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830

Posted: September 29 2021 at 11:26

Logan wrote:

If one wishes to contest or question an action, then consultation with admin via PM is requested.

You dehumanized me via PM, when I tried communicating with you via that channel. Who should I PM about that, Logan? Given the thread, Logan, maybe you could've listened to the music instead of going on the warpath. You didn't address the handful of attacks that threatened to derail the thread, you simply joined them.

Edited by Man Overboard - September 29 2021 at 11:28

Logan

Forum & Site Admin Group

Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 37232

Posted: September 29 2021 at 11:23

^ I've been trying to search for cached pages with JD having that extra star (as collabs/ prog reviewers do) and have not so far found ones other than the current status (three stars, Forum Senior member).

As to lyrics: Please see this in the rules section: Copyrighted material - A warning

This is a privately owned site and suggestions of changes to those rules would be best directed to M@x and we should all try to abide by the rules in Forum Home > Site Rules and Guidelines > Site rules and guidelines

I do suggest that if one has concerns to try PMing an admin. Try to explain the situation as clearly as possible, and we'll look into them.

As for the general issue of removing stars as punishment, I don't see it as punishment, but as a security, trust and confidentiality issue as those stars give greater access. There are deeper issues of concern regarding this. Note that when I took action before in this regard, it followed consultation with the other admin. If one wishes to contest or question an action, then consultation with admin via PM is requested.

Man Overboard View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830

Posted: September 29 2021 at 11:23

suitkees wrote:

Well, you have an interesting way of misrepresenting things...

I could say the same about you. Why exactly is a "prog description" of music considered to be such an offense that you can just openly attack a lifelong musician's music without hearing their music? Not my fault that Logan misrepresented the situation and acted as if I hadn't submitted my music through the proper channels--and when I acknowledged (again) that I had, I was attacked for explaining the results of that process. I've been here for almost 20 years, you a single one. It's almost 14 years since I released Soundtrack For A Dream to very positive reception here on ProgArchives and toured successfully in support of it. Why shouldn't new music I make be considered?

chopper wrote:

I don't see any "attacks" from Logan but I do see -

"Any members of teams who chose not to assess my work for inclusion in the archives, especially those who reply in this thread, are only showing their complete asses."

and

"These actions say a lot more about the bad-faith performance and procedural structural failings of these team members to do their jobs correctly,"

Try reading the referenced thread more carefully--and try explaining why it's a problem for a member to mention a miscarriage of procedure when an errant admin makes a foolish assumption.

Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679

Posted: September 29 2021 at 10:37

^ If JD was never a collab or prog reviewer, then there was no change in his status or star accumulation.

TCat

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 07 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 11612

Posted: September 29 2021 at 10:33

JD wrote:

I suspect I was 'penalized' for my 'Re-writing The Classics' thread violation of posting song lyrics (even though I included credits). Something I find deeply hypocritical given so many other threads that quote or use others work.

At the end of the day I've made my own choice to not participate in that thread as a form of silent protest.

In respect to this, I am not aware of you being penalized for that thread. We are looking into it, but I don't think there was any accidental removal of any stars.

As far as the posting of song lyrics vs. posting YouTube videos, I already posted a link that will answer your concerns about this. I'll repost that here.

Here’s what you need to know about sharing lyrics online | The FADER

Posting of lyrics - judgments usually don't go in favor of the defendant violating the fair use law because the lyrics are posted directly on the offender's site (no off-site link was provided).

Posting of YouTube videos - judgments have been going in favor of the defendant because they only provide a link to an outside source (like YouTube).

It's okay if you decide not to participate in the "Rewriting the classics" thread. But since you keep bringing it up that you think it's hypocritical, I feel it's only fair that I post the reason that things were decided the way they are.

Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 09 2019
Location: Kansas City
Status: Offline
Points: 12400

Posted: September 29 2021 at 10:16

Easy Money wrote:

^ True, was JD ever a prog reviewer? Reviewers and Collabs have access to the same zones, Special Collabs have access to one more zone and Admins and Mods have access to the admin zone.

That's a lot of zones!! Do you ever get lost in the zone? LOL

Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679

Posted: September 29 2021 at 09:58

^ True, was JD ever a prog reviewer?
Reviewers and Collabs have access to the same zones, Special Collabs have access to one more zone and Admins and Mods have access to the admin zone.

Lewian

Prog Reviewer

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15151

Posted: September 29 2021 at 09:56

Easy Money wrote:

Forum Senior Member is 3 stars. If you are a collab then its four stars. Have you (JD) ever been a collab?

Prog reviewer is four stars as well, as you can see.

Edited by Lewian - September 29 2021 at 09:56

Easy Money View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10679

Posted: September 29 2021 at 07:43

Forum Senior Member is 3 stars. If you are a collab then its four stars. Have you (JD) ever been a collab?

chopper

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20032

Posted: September 29 2021 at 06:29

JD wrote:

Wow, I still don't have an answer to the question I asked. And I didn't mean for this to turn into a rehashing of someone else's issues.

But it does sound like it IS a thing. Although I have to admit that I fail to see what value it holds really.

I mean I only just noticed my own being reduced so clearly it doesn't affect my activity on the site to the best of my knowledge. Plus, it was NEVER communicated to me that I was at risk or that it had even been done.

At the end of the day I've made my own choice to not participate in that thread as a form of silent protest.

Apologies for derailing your thread.

To be honest I thought Senior Member was a three star title anyway. If you have had one removed then clearly someone should have informed you and the reason why.

Forum Senior Member

Joined: February 07 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18446

Posted: September 29 2021 at 05:46

Wow, I still don't have an answer to the question I asked. And I didn't mean for this to turn into a rehashing of someone else's issues.

But it does sound like it IS a thing. Although I have to admit that I fail to see what value it holds really.

At the end of the day I've made my own choice to not participate in that thread as a form of silent protest.

Thank you for supporting independently produced music

chopper

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20032

Posted: September 29 2021 at 02:45

Man Overboard wrote:

Then, it happened. He was right: the thread had devolved into disrespectful attacks--but they came from him. Ouch

I don't see any "attacks" from Logan but I do see -

"Any members of teams who chose not to assess my work for inclusion in the archives, especially those who reply in this thread, are only showing their complete asses."

and

"These actions say a lot more about the bad-faith performance and procedural structural failings of these team members to do their jobs correctly,"

Man With Hat View Drop Down

Collaborator

Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team

Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166183

Posted: September 29 2021 at 02:22

I honestly can't remember if you were a collab or not. Embarrassed

Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.

suitkees

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 9050

Posted: September 29 2021 at 02:16

Man Overboard wrote:

Happened to me. Admin Logan responded very dishonestly/disingenuously in my thread about a five-album prog concept arc I'd completed, represented a bunch of arbitrary conditions as structural fact to derail discussion, and took issue with my incidental and provoked assessment of some of his and the collab teams' work without at all addressing the core issue of my assessment. Then he moved and locked my thread, and in PM, told me he was having me stripped of my Prog Reviewer title and 4th star.

Then, it happened. He was right: the thread had devolved into disrespectful attacks--but they came from him. Ouch

Most insultingly, I've got credibility on ProgArchives as a composer of avant-garde music, my debut album was well-received and elicited comparisons to Fred Frith, among others. I doubt the original upload link works, but a remastered version of 2008's Soundtrack For A Dream is available to listen to. Logan should own up to his mistakes and be accountable, make things right, and give us our stars back.

Well, you have an interesting way of misrepresenting things... Apparently, modesty and self-criticism are not your strong-points. There may have been some unpleasant remarks in that thread, generated by your very pretentious - which I read as humorous - presentation of your own music. Instead of ignoring the unpleasant remarks (but which were no way insulting) you reacted in an aggressive and insulting way. Logan definitely was neither insulting, nor disrespectful. Since you started reporting from the collab-zone, and insulting its members, I can understand why he stripped you from access to it. If there is someone who has to apologize for being disrespectful in that thread it is you.

Honestly, and it has been said by someone else in that same thread, your attitude doesn't incite me to explore your music further... It is not really the best way to promote something.

Only recently I came to understand that there is something as a "collab-zone" to which normal earthlings don't have access. Apparently, you need a fourth or fifth star to gain access. I guess it is not about the stars but about this access to the ZONE... This doesn't explain of course why JD has been deprived of it, but I think this is more a matter for PM than for a public thread...

Edited by suitkees - September 29 2021 at 02:27

The razamataz is a pain in the bum

progbethyname View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7866

Posted: September 28 2021 at 17:53

I say make me a 1 star.
It won’t hurt my feelings. 🤪

Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣

Man Overboard View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830

Posted: September 28 2021 at 17:51

A signed, well-known, contemporary prog artist, who I won't name as I do not wish to name-drop, compared my 2021 work to Schoenberg, King Crimson, Stockhausen, Radiohead, and Ryuichi Sakamoto. I don't disagree that musical elements that can be rightfully compared to those composers tastefully shine through in my recent work. I think that Logan owes us all a serious apology.

Man Overboard View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830

Posted: September 28 2021 at 16:39

Happened to me. Admin Logan responded very dishonestly/disingenuously in my thread about a five-album prog concept arc I'd completed, represented a bunch of arbitrary conditions as structural fact to derail discussion, and took issue with my incidental and provoked assessment of some of his and the collab teams' work without at all addressing the core issue of my assessment. Then he moved and locked my thread, and in PM, told me he was having me stripped of my Prog Reviewer title and 4th star.

Then, it happened. He was right: the thread had devolved into disrespectful attacks--but they came from him. Ouch

Edited by Man Overboard - September 28 2021 at 17:10