Removing member rating stars as punishment
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Topics not related to music
Forum Name: I Have A Question For You......?
Forum Description: Ask any question on any subject: if the admin team or any of our members can answer it we will.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127391
Printed Date: February 22 2025 at 07:40
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Topic: Removing member rating stars as punishment
Posted By: JD
Subject: Removing member rating stars as punishment
Date Posted: September 28 2021 at 15:00
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Is this even a thing ? It was brought up in a thread and it actually looks like it might have happened to me. What's the poop? ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Replies:
Posted By: Shadowyzard
Date Posted: September 28 2021 at 15:27
I would wish a single star as a senior member. That would be uniquely (and bizarrely) cool! 
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 28 2021 at 16:39
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Happened to me. Admin Logan responded very dishonestly/disingenuously in my thread about a five-album prog concept arc I'd completed, represented a bunch of arbitrary conditions as structural fact to derail discussion, and took issue with my incidental and provoked assessment of some of his and the collab teams' work without at all addressing the core issue of my assessment. Then he http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127222" rel="nofollow - moved and locked my thread , and in PM, told me he was having me stripped of my Prog Reviewer title and 4th star. Then, it happened. He was right: the thread had devolved into disrespectful attacks--but they came from him. 
Most insultingly, http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=45902" rel="nofollow - I've got credibility on ProgArchives as a composer of avant-garde music , my debut album was well-received and elicited comparisons to Fred Frith, among others. I doubt the original upload link works, but https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings/sets/soundtrack-for-a-dream-2020-remaster" rel="nofollow - a remastered version of 2008's Soundtrack For A Dream is available to listen to . Logan should own up to his mistakes and be accountable, make things right, and give us our stars back. I wonder why yours was taken, JD?
------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 28 2021 at 17:51
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A signed, well-known, contemporary prog artist, who I won't name as I do not wish to name-drop, compared my 2021 work to Schoenberg, King Crimson, Stockhausen, Radiohead, and Ryuichi Sakamoto. I don't disagree that musical elements that can be rightfully compared to those composers tastefully shine through in my recent work. I think that Logan owes us all a serious apology. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: September 28 2021 at 17:53
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I say make me a 1 star. It won’t hurt my feelings. 🤪 ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 02:16
Well, you have an interesting way of misrepresenting things... Apparently, modesty and self-criticism are not your strong-points. There may have been some unpleasant remarks in that thread, generated by your very pretentious - which I read as humorous - presentation of your own music. Instead of ignoring the unpleasant remarks (but which were no way insulting) you reacted in an aggressive and insulting way. Logan definitely was neither insulting, nor disrespectful. Since you started reporting from the collab-zone, and insulting its members, I can understand why he stripped you from access to it. If there is someone who has to apologize for being disrespectful in that thread it is you. Honestly, and it has been said by someone else in that same thread, your attitude doesn't incite me to explore your music further... It is not really the best way to promote something. Only recently I came to understand that there is something as a "collab-zone" to which normal earthlings don't have access. Apparently, you need a fourth or fifth star to gain access. I guess it is not about the stars but about this access to the ZONE... This doesn't explain of course why JD has been deprived of it, but I think this is more a matter for PM than for a public thread... ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Man Overboard wrote:Posted By: Man With Hat
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 02:22
I honestly can't remember if you were a collab or not.  ------------- Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 02:45
I don't see any "attacks" from Logan but I do see - "Any members of teams who chose not to assess my work for inclusion in the archives, especially those who reply in this thread, are only showing their complete asses." and "These actions say a lot more about the bad-faith performance and procedural structural failings of these team members to do their jobs correctly," |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 05:46
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Wow, I still don't have an answer to the question I asked. And I didn't mean for this to turn into a rehashing of someone else's issues. But it does sound like it IS a thing. Although I have to admit that I fail to see what value it holds really. I mean I only just noticed my own being reduced so clearly it doesn't affect my activity on the site to the best of my knowledge. Plus, it was NEVER communicated to me that I was at risk or that it had even been done. I suspect I was 'penalized' for my 'Re-writing The Classics' thread violation of posting song lyrics (even though I included credits). Something I find deeply hypocritical given so many other threads that quote or use others work. At the end of the day I've made my own choice to not participate in that thread as a form of silent protest. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 06:29
Apologies for derailing your thread. To be honest I thought Senior Member was a three star title anyway. If you have had one removed then clearly someone should have informed you and the reason why.
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 07:43
| Forum Senior Member is 3 stars. If you are a collab then its four stars. Have you (JD) ever been a collab? |
Posted By: Lewian
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 09:56
Prog reviewer is four stars as well, as you can see.
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 09:58
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^ True, was JD ever a prog reviewer? Reviewers and Collabs have access to the same zones, Special Collabs have access to one more zone and Admins and Mods have access to the admin zone. |
Posted By: Grumpyprogfan
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 10:16
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Posted By: TCat
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 10:33
In respect to this, I am not aware of you being penalized for that thread. We are looking into it, but I don't think there was any accidental removal of any stars. As far as the posting of song lyrics vs. posting YouTube videos, I already posted a link that will answer your concerns about this. I'll repost that here. https://www.thefader.com/2019/06/26/who-owns-lyrics-explainer" rel="nofollow - Here’s what you need to know about sharing lyrics online | The FADER Posting of lyrics - judgments usually don't go in favor of the defendant violating the fair use law because the lyrics are posted directly on the offender's site (no off-site link was provided). Posting of YouTube videos - judgments have been going in favor of the defendant because they only provide a link to an outside source (like YouTube). It's okay if you decide not to participate in the "Rewriting the classics" thread. But since you keep bringing it up that you think it's hypocritical, I feel it's only fair that I post the reason that things were decided the way they are. ------------- https://ibb.co/8x0xjR0" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 10:37
| ^ If JD was never a collab or prog reviewer, then there was no change in his status or star accumulation. |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 11:23
I could say the same about you. Why exactly is a "prog description" of music considered to be such an offense that you can just openly attack a lifelong musician's music without hearing their music? Not my fault that Logan misrepresented the situation and acted as if I hadn't submitted my music through the proper channels--and when I acknowledged (again) that I had, I was attacked for explaining the results of that process. I've been here for almost 20 years, you a single one. It's almost 14 years since I released Soundtrack For A Dream to very positive reception here on ProgArchives and toured successfully in support of it. Why shouldn't new music I make be considered?
Try reading the referenced thread more carefully--and try explaining why it's a problem for a member to mention a miscarriage of procedure when an errant admin makes a foolish assumption. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 11:23
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^ I've been trying to search for cached pages with JD having that extra star (as collabs/ prog reviewers do) and have not so far found ones other than the current status (three stars, Forum Senior member). As to lyrics: Please see this in the rules section: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=51801" rel="nofollow - Copyrighted material - A warning This is a privately owned site and suggestions of changes to those rules would be best directed to M@x and we should all try to abide by the rules in http://www.progarchives.com/forum/default.asp" rel="nofollow - Forum Home > http://www.progarchives.com/forum/default.asp?C=14" rel="nofollow - Site Rules and Guidelines > http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=78" rel="nofollow - Site rules and guidelines I do suggest that if one has concerns to try PMing an admin. Try to explain the situation as clearly as possible, and we'll look into them. As for the general issue of removing stars as punishment, I don't see it as punishment, but as a security, trust and confidentiality issue as those stars give greater access. There are deeper issues of concern regarding this. Note that when I took action before in this regard, it followed consultation with the other admin. If one wishes to contest or question an action, then consultation with admin via PM is requested. |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 11:26
You dehumanized me via PM, when I tried communicating with you via that channel. Who should I PM about that, Logan? Given the thread, Logan, maybe you could've listened to the music instead of going on the warpath. You didn't address the handful of attacks that threatened to derail the thread, you simply joined them.
------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 11:53
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That's not my perspective at all. I had even tried to offer some understanding with my first post when I responded to others by saying, "I read it as humorous though. I quite commonly joke around with a straight-face often employing absurdity and hyperbole. There are so many different ways that people interpret intent." I think I may have been too generous now.
I did offer a formal warning due to your lack of discretion when discussing your perception of what goes on in the collab zone. I did not remove your Prog Reviewer status until I had consulted with the other admin (was concerned about your collab zone privileges -- I hope for a sense of discretion and that we can trust those people). Mine was a general comment, though, about contacting any admin if people have concerns or wish to contest an action. And if I wished to contest an action by an admin, then I would contact another admin to ask for their perspective and assessment. I would rather you contact other admin about this and they can investigate and assess your grievances. That is better procedure and if it is politely and thoughtfully handled, it is more likely to lead to a positive outcome. |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:01
Since you feel comfortable replying to me, I will reply to you. It is imbalanced to suggest it any other way. That's one of the things I took issue with in your PM--you said harsh, arbitrary, punitive things, and told me I was not to respond. Now, in public, you're doing a softer version of same. The issue is that my avant-garde prog music's credibility was established here on ProgArchives almost fifteen years ago, yet you suggest and enforce your uneducated judgment of it as "non-prog", apparently because of the (in)actions of the collab teams. It's not as if I screenshotted their damning Collab Zone messages, or named and shamed a single team member for their Collab Zone activity. I didn't mention any Collab Zone activity regarding any other artist's music--what exactly did I breach, security- or trust-wise? You've never listened to my music. You take the false high ground while refusing to engage with the core issue I present--which is how I described you previously in this thread.
Note the edit you added: your faux-Brit insinuation attacks the discretion and trust of the one whose privileges you're 'concerned' about without a single example of an actual breach, yet you cannot even be trusted to answer a straightforward inquiry in a straightforward manner. If another admin wishes to join the thread (the purpose of http://www.progarchives.com/Forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=59" rel="nofollow - I Have A Question For You......? ), they are welcome, but accountability is not something you're exempt from. I'll note that I also reported a post or two in the other thread for attacks and derailing, but unless your response was the admin response, there was no admin response.
------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:17
Really? Be explicit. Where did I misrepresent something? I really get the impression that you are a very obtuse person. I never talked about "prog descriptions", not here, not in that other thread. And again you try to accuse Logan of something that, at least for what is visible for all forum members, has never taken place. Apparently, your music has been considered but rejected for inclusion on PA (after your first presentation in the "unsigned artists" section). You haven't been attacked at all, but just turned down for inclusion on PA; you turn it into a crusade. In the other thread, and implicitly here again, you also claim respect because of your 14 years of membership on PA, but respect is not something to claim, it is something you earn. For me it is not that much a question about "new music not being considered" but more about your abhorrent attitude. But all this is not addressing the OP's post, I'm sorry about that. ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:23
Here's an obvious one. I've been a PA member for 17 years, not 14. I've been a respected prog artist for 14 years. I'm not a commercially-oriented project, so I don't market. I guess it's my abhorrent attitude. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:26
------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:28
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^^ I'm not at all comfortable replying to you, but you are making allegations and misrepresenting my intent and approach, I asked you not to respond back to me and would rather you contact another admin because you were clearly attacking/ insulting me. It was nasty. I won't divulge as PMs are private messages. I was quite shocked in fact. If I felt like I could have polite and reasonable conversation with you without insult and missing the point, then I would have been happy to continue. I did check out some of your music before, but so what? I certainly didn't want to properly look into it considering your attitude. I was pointing out that it was rejected and the rules that I did not write state. "Prog Music lounge This section is for general discussions about Progressive music. Unless and until an artist is included in Prog Archives, they are not considered to be "prog". In other words, discussions in "Prog Music Lounge" should only be about groups/music currently included in Prog Archives, or about progressive music in general. If you wish to suggest a band for inclusion in the site, see "Suggest new Bands" below. For discussions on all other types of music see the "General music discussions" section below.N.B. In terms of the incorrect posting of threads, this is the most widely abused section of the forum. Please make sure you only create threads in this section which directly relate to Prog music." There's plenty of music not in PA that I consider to be in the Progressive Rock universe. Different minds have different ideas of what constitutes Prog and make different associations. I don't know why you mention the faux-Brit thing. I am not an American and do have British citizenship.
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Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:29
If you don't listen to the music, how can you know? Three ways to discover our faults:
 Jesu Christo, this sounds like a commercial cabal for promotional purposes and no longer a place for prog music to be discussed or discovered. What's with the draconian stance? I never saw that in the rules--that attitude is exactly what I took and still take issue with. This forum and website, which many signed prog artists who are included in the Archives privately and publicly loathe for its cultural flaws, is not the ultimate arbiter of who or what is prog, no matter how much money circulates. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:41
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^ Those rules have been up for many years. And if you never saw that, and missed reading through the link I provided, then it better explains that you misunderstood my response in your thread. I thought I had been clear enough. See: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127222&PID=5929946#5929946" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=127222&PID=5929946#5929946 By the way, I think I tried to explain but you didn't understand, that I didn't see your topic in "Suggest New Bands" because it was in "Unsigned Bands" (a different forum). I had searched the Suggest New Bands forum.
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Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:45
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^^ This really makes me laugh. Apparently you are so much out of touch with reality that you can utter this kind of nonsense. I don't think there's that much money circulating here at PA, otherwise this site, database and the forums would be much more up to modern standards. It really seems to me that you should question your own attitude. But I sincerely hope you get banned because your bad-faith is just too shameful... ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:49
You've never heard of a videogame studio being denied their bonus because the review average wasn't high enough? How about an InsideOut Music artist? ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 12:58
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^ No I didn't. And I don't see the connection with what has been said before, and definitely not with the OP. ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:00
Economics and logistics are a complex structural matter that, in creative industry, most heavily penalizes and affects artists of all stripes. When a record company makes a mistake, the artist pays for it. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:08
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^ Then I guess it all started here for you:
------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:10
I still haven't seen those rules posted--it seems like an unnatural stance. I'm not actually seeking to be contentious, or start a conflict. I think you might be able to appreciate my perspective. I'd posted a topic in Unsigned Bands well over a decade ago. It had magnificent response, and clearly classified my music well within the Archives' bounds, though it wasn't send to Suggest New Bands through formal process. I had posted a topic in Suggest New Bands last year. It was moved due to collab teams mishandling it. Not trying to pin fault on any individual here, it was a logistical error. I've produced three albums since last year's thread. They're unique, future-thinking prog records that tie in to a five-album prog concept arc, and have more research poured into them than, for example, a novel of historical fiction. Forgive me for not knowing that Prog Music Lounge was actually Discuss Our Site Archives' Roster. It isn't clear.
------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: TCat
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:24
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Going back the the original topic of the thread, it seems there was a mistake on the part of the O.P. about his claim about having a star removed. There is no record of him having more than 3 stars. No stars were removed. ------------- https://ibb.co/8x0xjR0" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:26
I never got a clear answer on why my star was removed, or how I could've prevented it from being removed. OP may or may not have had a 4th star. Going back to my point, TCat, would you consider https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings/fractal-fracture-sample" rel="nofollow - this short sample of a longer, non-album track to not be prog? I've got a large body of work, so it can be daunting to approach, but this is less than three minutes of music.
 I think you'll be surprised. If you enjoy it, a good starter album is https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings/sets/pentobarbitol" rel="nofollow - Four Corners , marking the center.------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:39
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So you never saw that in the rules? You mean the rule that he LITERALLY COPIED AND PASTED INTO HIS REPLY FROM THE http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13082" rel="nofollow - FORUM RULES AND GUIDELINES WRITTEN 16 YEARS AGO? Site administrators do not operate in a vacuum. The issues brought forth here and in the previous thread you decided to throw a tantrum in were not somehow hidden from our view. Quite frankly, you decided to go to war with the most lenient and non-punitive member of our team. We have collectively found his actions to be more than fair where you are concerned. Assessing the events leading up to this point, I am afraid you will find no quarter elsewhere (there is some faux-Brit for you).
Credibility is not a throne you get to sit on indefinitely, free from further review. Your music was evaluated over a year ago by the eclectic team, voted on and moved to the avant-garde team where it was rejected. What it was that you somehow interpreted as "(inaction) of the collab teams" is a real head scratcher. You had the opportunity with new music to re-submit through the proper channels. Instead you chose the misguided route of posting inappropriately in the primary Prog Music Lounge. I will refrain from laying a qualitative analysis on your motives, but at the very least it demonstrated a complete disregard for the site rules and guidelines, an understanding of which should be the bare minimum of requirements to maintain collaborator status. Your actions are found to be wanting. Repeated insults to administrators and site volunteers will not be tolerated. Expect a PM from me. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 13:50
Confirmed. 4-star status is limited to collaborators and prog reviewers. I went as far as a search of user posts and there is zero collaborator zone activity. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow"> https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 15:16
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Again...wow. That's a lot of conversation. I'll have to go back and see what I missed over the last few hours. To answer the questions...No, I don't believe I was ever a collab or prog reviewer. That's not to say I haven't written reviews, but I think the title has a very specific protocol. I want to be clear here though, I'm not 100% sure that I DID have 4 stars. My Swiss cheese skull foam just seems to think I had. Honestly I don't pay much attention to such things and I can't see where it would affect my experience here unless it limited my ability to participate in some way. So to any admins reading this, No Worry. It was way more of a curiosity than a concern. And I'm not looking to re-litigate the whole copyright thing. Please...by all means, continue on. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 15:26
| Could be worse, misremembering that you had four stars is not as delusional as thinking you used to control four star systems as a multistellar warlord. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 15:47
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I cannot remember a time when the OP had more than three stars. I can remember a few cases in which a Collab or a Prog Reviewer lost a star, sometimes for a few days, in a single case for some 10 years, and some for good. One or more were thrown overboard afterwards. On the other hand, back in the day when there was more spam to fight, I remember an admin who was disguised as a Forum Senior Member for a while, but he still must have had access to some ninja tools to serve Admin's sake. Anyway, this Forum Senior Member had the ability to remove spam and evict spammers. ------------- 
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Posted By: suitkees
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 16:06
So, now it has been established that you were not "penalized", will you have a thought for your re-writing colleagues that feel a bit orphaned of your re-writing talents? (no, we still won't be able to reproduce the original lyrics...)   ------------- The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 29 2021 at 16:28
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To summarise this thread somewhat: - JD never had more than three stars (I had checked through cached pages going back quite some time). - MO did lose a star when her Prog Reviewer status (and certain access that came with it) was removed which came down to a cost/risk-benefit analysis. - I don't see losing stars as punishment, but as a security and trust issue as those stars give greater access. There are various reasons why those would be removed, not just due to abuse from the user. I tend to favour restorative justice over retributive justice, by the way. Since this thread was based on a misremembrance that led to some misconception, and it has been addressed, I think it is time to close this topic. In the future, to people generally, if you have similar questions please consider PMing an admin, express your concern clearly, and we will try our best to address it. Such topics can easily lead to and foster false assumptions and acrimony. |