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HemispheresOfXanadu 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2012
Location: Canada
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 Posted: May 01 2013 at 11:37 |
^Completely forgot about him. I don't know if I'd really call him metal, but he had an influence on pretty well every guitarist back in the day and was undeniably proggy.
Also, kinda surprised that this thread isn't about Sabbath, Jimi, Zep and Deep Purple. They all started around '68.
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Elastic Murray
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Joined: April 04 2013
Location: Scotland
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 11:03 |
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Is Jimi Hendrix even worth mentioning in this discussion?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 10:02 |
 Earendil wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
My point is that bands like Iron Maiden were more important in shaping the sound of prog metal, actually metal as a whole from 80s onwards. We haven't really had a 'new' metal sound since then, so it seems safe to say that the 80s sound is the quintessential metal sound. |
I'd say extreme metal is a completely new type of metal from what came before. |
But it was also born in the 80s....whether it's black metal or death metal or just grind, they all had their first movers in the 80s.
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Earendil
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Joined: November 17 2008
Location: Indiana, USA
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 09:31 |
rogerthat wrote:
My point is that bands like Iron Maiden were more important in shaping the sound of prog metal, actually metal as a whole from 80s onwards. We haven't really had a 'new' metal sound since then, so it seems safe to say that the 80s sound is the quintessential metal sound. |
I'd say extreme metal is a completely new type of metal from what came before.
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tamijo
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Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 05:59 |
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Yes queen definately a good addition to the list
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 04:55 |
^ Certainly influenced a lot of metal bands, including Metallica, Dream Theatre and Iron Maiden (and Steve Vai  )
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What?
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 06 2004
Location: France
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Points: 8138
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 04:53 |
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Queen ?
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 04:30 |
tamijo wrote:
Dean wrote:
^ Vai was influenced by Holdsworth directly, not just through Satriani ... and don't forget the influence of Zappa. |
Oh yes, Zappa influenced a hole lot of people, and not only as a guitarist. |
Holdsworth & Zappa are Prog connections and influences, the others less so.
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What?
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tamijo
Forum Senior Member
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Location: Denmark
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Points: 4287
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 04:22 |
Dean wrote:
^ Vai was influenced by Holdsworth directly, not just through Satriani ... and don't forget the influence of Zappa. |
Oh yes, Zappa influenced a hole lot of people, and not only as a guitarist.
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
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Points: 4287
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 04:21 |
Ok, im not disagreeing to the importance of Iron M.
Edited by tamijo - May 01 2013 at 04:24
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 04:20 |
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^ Vai was influenced by Holdsworth directly, not just through Satriani ... and don't forget the influence of Zappa.
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What?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 04:17 |
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My point is that bands like Iron Maiden were more important in shaping the sound of prog metal, actually metal as a whole from 80s onwards. We haven't really had a 'new' metal sound since then, so it seems safe to say that the 80s sound is the quintessential metal sound. Sabbath may have played a role but it was secondary. Rush were more influential to prog metal than Sabbath but still less so than Maiden, I'd say, because without Maiden, it would be just heavy prog, not prog metal.
Edited by rogerthat - May 01 2013 at 04:21
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tamijo
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Location: Denmark
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 04:14 |
rogerthat wrote:
Try this: Sabbath in the Ozzy years is heavy metal, but it's not Metal. There's a huge difference between the Sabbath albums and Dehumanizer, which is in turn heavier than Heaven and Hell or the Rainbow albums, etc. That is, there was some such thing as heavy metal in the 70s but that had about as much to do with prog metal as Elvis Priesley had to with Van Halen. Black Sabbath's concerts often featured long blues-based jams, which is not nearly typical of prog metal at all. Jazz-rock like Al Di Meola or Dixie Dregs had more to do with prog metal than Sabbath.
Speaking of Van Halen, Metal tends to deviate from blues while hard rock remains wedded to it, and is arguably just a very heavy form of blues. You 'subtract' all the heaviness from Van Halen's songs like Panama or Girl Gone Bad and what remains is blues. You can't say that about, say, Hallowed Be Thy Name, it's a different 'beast'.
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Sure, i know how it sounds. I know prog metal is not blues based (thats why its labeled prog). What im saying is
Black Sabbath Zep. (blues based Heavy) ect. lay the way of a Heavy Metal Sound, and Crimson (on some tracks) a Heavy'ish (odd tempo not blues based) Prog. = Together they made Prog Metal possible.
But im aware that on the way, Iron Maiden, Rush, and others, added to the evolvement. As allways in music history many factors are involved, and yes, Al Di Meola and other Jazz players, may well have influenced many a metal guitarist. Vai was influenced by Satiani was influenced by Holdsworth.
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 03:45 |
tamijo wrote:
So what you are basicly saying is everyone out there got it wrong, and im right !
In that case you convinced me, that you are not going to change your mind, but you didnt convince me, that Black Sabbath was not Heavy Metal.
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I'm saying that back then it wasn't called Heavy Metal it was called Heavy Rock - they weren't Stoner or Doom either. I don't need to convince you of anything. You can regard Sabbath as Metal now if you wish, but they weren't in the 60s and 70s, and neither were Rusheither. People applying labels retrospectively doesn't change the music they played or the pigeonholing that was used before the new pigeonhole was created. Saying Black Sabbath was Heavy Metal in 1969 is revisionist, it's applying modern terminology to a time before the term existed. That's like calling The Nile Song a metal tune. If you must use modern terminology then they would be Proto-Metal but obviously no band in the history of music has ever formed with the intention of being Proto anything, we can only apply that pigeonhole retrospectively.
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What?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 03:35 |
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Try this: Sabbath in the Ozzy years is heavy metal, but it's not Metal. There's a huge difference between the Sabbath albums and Dehumanizer, which is in turn heavier than Heaven and Hell or the Rainbow albums, etc. That is, there was some such thing as heavy metal in the 70s but that had about as much to do with prog metal as Elvis Priesley had to with Van Halen. Black Sabbath's concerts often featured long blues-based jams, which is not nearly typical of prog metal at all. Jazz-rock like Al Di Meola or Dixie Dregs had more to do with prog metal than Sabbath.
Speaking of Van Halen, Metal tends to deviate from blues while hard rock remains wedded to it, and is arguably just a very heavy form of blues. You 'subtract' all the heaviness from Van Halen's songs like Panama or Girl Gone Bad and what remains is blues. You can't say that about, say, Hallowed Be Thy Name, it's a different 'beast'.
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tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 03:27 |
Dean wrote:
tamijo wrote:
Dean wrote:
...all the bands suggested thus far (except Ironing Maiden of course) may possibly be the fathers of Hard and/or Heavy Rock or Metal or Heavy Prog, but they are the Grandfathers of Prog Metal. The Father of Prog Metal would be a Metal band, not a hard rock band or a loud Prog band.
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Rightly so, 
But the problem is, that its as impossible to define if a Hard rock band is metal, as it is to define, if a 70's band is prog. ; most sources define hard rock and metal as beeing basicly one same thing.
Zep Sabbath and so on, is to most a first wave.
ect. ect.
more about the subject here :
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Ah, the wikipedia article that introduces us to the seldom read phrase: "punk rock sensibility" ... what an oxymoron... 
Never again will we see those three words used in the same sentence, even if Lemmy is involved.
But Nope. While the academic music historians can piddle around to their hearts content, and I do recognise the logic that for there to have been a New Wave Of British Heavy Metal that presuposes that there was an Old Wave of British Heavy Metal before it, this isn't strictly true. The New Wave of epiphet was adopted in deference to the "New Wave" phenominon that was sweeping through mainstream music at that time. What came before was Heavy Rock (which the 'mericans called Hard Rock) not Metal and it was never called Metal (even the seemingly apt named Heavy Metal Kids were a Heavy Rock band who took their name from a gang of street kids featured in a WIlliam S. Borroughs book and not from a musical genre).
The reason why people think "Heavy Metal" existed before then is by word-association - it is familiar to us because a whole bunch of elements on the periodic table are called Heavy Metals so the transition from Heavy Rock (Brit. Eng.) to Heavy Metal (Brit. Eng. and Amer. Eng.) more or less happened without asking. |
So what you are basicly saying is everyone out there got it wrong, and im right !
In that case you convinced me, that you are not going to change your mind, but you didnt convince me, that Black Sabbath was not Heavy Metal.
Edited by tamijo - May 01 2013 at 03:29
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 02:02 |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 01:52 |
^ That was ... polite.
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
... those instrumentals wouldn't exist without La Villa Strangiato. |
Which ones specifically?
Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 01 2013 at 01:55
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ProgMetaller2112
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2012
Location: Pacoima,CA,USA
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Points: 3145
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 01:43 |
None, but they've played Working Man live on many occasions and have publicly cited them as a strong influence and those instrumentals wouldn't exist without La Villa Strangiato
Dayvenkirq wrote:
^ Any evidence of that ... "fact"?
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Do your research, please!! Metal Virgin
Edited by ProgMetaller2112 - May 01 2013 at 01:43
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“War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four
"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: May 01 2013 at 01:18 |
ProgMetaller2112 wrote:
^^^ Where did Maiden and Metallica get its prog influence, most definitely not Sabbath. Rush has an influence on both Maiden and Metallica  . That's just plain fact! |
And which Rush tracks appear on Garage Inc.?
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