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Topic ClosedGreg Lake’s rant against bootlegs and piracy.
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Points: 17524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 20:32
Hi,
 
Dear Greg
 
I do not feel sorry for you or ELP if you feel that you are getting ripped off by your very fans. I really doubt that someone would pay the exhorbitant price to see your show, simply to record it and to give it away, or sell it to their friends and relations.
 
I also feel, that your need for money, is ... perhaps underlying some other motives, and I would love to suggest that you try to recoup some of the money you guys wasted on electricity a  few golden years ago, and perhaps appreciate what the music was about a lot more than just "money" ... or "entertainment". You certianly had no concerns with the money at that time, so, if I may ask, why is this a problem now?
 
One last thing, and I'm not a moralist at all ... but you might read up a little bit on The Grateful Dead ... the one band that gave it away left and right, has never been worried about money and has a faithful following that is still buying. So, while you are not (perhaps) wanting to give up the royal chalet in the Caribean, maybe you ought to appreciate your fans a lot more and delete that note from the website.
 
I do agree that it is how an "artist" can make a living, but in the end, you guys stopped producing a long time ago, and the only thing that you guys have come up with recently is yet another tour of the dead trojan horse.  It doesn't say much for your output or Keith's though Carl appears to be ok with touring 2 other dead trojan cows!
 
And, for the record, there are a lot of musicians and artists out there, that are simply not interested in your chalet's and your riches. And are plenty happy to sing their tunes and be appreciated and not be offended and insulted by your words.
 
I will forgive you this time, since I appreciate your "acting" and "words" in many a song, and I was "there" at the time when the music meant something important to you and I ... but today ... I think you are banging a head against the proverbial wall ... there are cell phones and iPod's good enough to record a whole show and then some ... and one of these days the laws will give the users that freedom to your chagrin and mine ... it's just like that photographer that took your picture singing, and you have it in the wall ... and today's camera is that cell phone ... it's still the same thing ... but you have to give the fans something ... hopefully it will be worth more to the fans, than just a simple recording.
 
We do need to be careful when we impose yesterday's rule on today's people and vice versa. You are well educated and know enough to know ... that is a problem and has forever been in history ... and it isn't going to change because Greg Lake said so. Or me, or Jesus, or anyone else.
 
With much care and appreciation, I will at least say thank you for some great music and words.
 
Pedro


Edited by moshkito - November 04 2010 at 20:40
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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RoyFairbank View Drop Down
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Points: 1072 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2010 at 20:52
I love Lake's phony presumptions here about capitalism, "democracy" and profit

You think fictitious values can last? Lake is begging the question, if there is no intrinsic profit value in music, then it should be given for free. Otherwise you truly really are screwed.

Capitalism is screwed with the value of social products - already books, music, information, communication soon to be everything. No real values, no profit system.

Get over it or let it get over you.



Edited by RoyFairbank - November 04 2010 at 20:53
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richardh View Drop Down
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Points: 28064 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 02:57
There's certainly been some strong feedback on this thread.Wink
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Points: 3196 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 03:11
Seems like a slap in the face to his fans for him to be that embittered towards him. People are more likely to buy his stuff if he doesn't seem like such a dick...
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 03:16
That's what I was saying before. Acting like a dick while simultaneously knocking a common practice on the internet (really doesn't matter if the practice is right or wrong) is a recipe for disaster because the internets can take you on and turn you out if it feels like it.
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Points: 2720 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:12
I sympathise with the man, but practically Padorra's Box is open, and mainly the artists, owners, and distributors will have to deal with it to protect themselves from bancrupcy.

Buggered if I have the slightest idea about how this could be done though.

Unfortunately it seems that anyone shouting for their ownership rights not to be violated is regarded as hopelessly behind the times.
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:27
I saw Greg Lake at the Orchard Theatre in Dartford a few years ago. Now as far as I know there is no official CD or DVD that I can buy of this performance. If I had recorded or filmed it and then sold it on eBay/YouTube/whatever, am I actually depriving Greg of income, has he suffered any loss.?
 
He will probably argue this is irrelevant.  Any thoughts?
 
 
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:39
(Notwithstanding the copyright laws applicable to the site) If I collected all your posts to date on PA and submitted them to a publisher who decided to publish them and the book became a success, wouldn't you feel cheated if I collected all the royalities?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:54
^ At last we've found a use for all those religion threads ...
 
 
...I'm just popping along to CreateSpace, back in a bit.Approve
What?
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Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:58
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

I sympathise with the man, but practically Padorra's Box is open, and mainly the artists, owners, and distributors will have to deal with it to protect themselves from bancrupcy.

Buggered if I have the slightest idea about how this could be done though.

Unfortunately it seems that anyone shouting for their ownership rights not to be violated is regarded as hopelessly behind the times.
I know what you mean for sure with the "Hopelessly behind the times" quote. It's none of my business but, I can't stop thinking that maybe because the business was so different during his youth, that he doesn't want to live in the new world. Also he may have some buddies that made zillions more than him and he wants to hold a candle to that because he also, at one time in his life had power and impact to large audiences. He may also witness business methods and procedures applied to his peers where upon they are financially protected by something that he is not......and for whatever reason. I don't know? Nobody truly knows? But he has been in the music business long before many of us were born...so, there must be something in reality that brings him anguish? 
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Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 09:12
Noone is actualy attacking the kid, listning to Youtube. And i dont think anyone have been or will be put in jail for downloading a few songs, or even uploading a "bad" video. As long as its not in an organized way.
 
On the other hand if you upload 200 albums from your collection (that you most likely downloaded yourself), you are seriusly breaking artist rights, and its only fair that you will pay a price. 
 
 
 
What i personally find interesting, is why Fripp and Gregorius are so frontal in the way they deal with copyrights. Is it something to do with the fact that they are representing an Anarkistic force in music, and now are paranoid about the monster they created - there own fanbase LOL
They know that many of the people interested in Prog. are the excact same kind of person, having a "free" mind about what is mine and what is yours, and they dont know how to deal with that, so they "overdue" the artist rights, sharing is stealing, and all that Jazz.
 
 
On a side note, people should not forget, that Fripp and others are fighting the record industry, trying to keep artist rights on the hand of the artist, and that is a great course.
Not so long ago Floyd won in court, that the Record compagnies should not be allowed to sell downloads of single tracks, if the artist have only sold the right to distribute an album as a hole. I firmly belive in that kind of thinking.
 
 
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Points: 5482 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 09:30
Just because the Internet has made it easy to distribute an artists material, that doesn't mean it isn't stealing.
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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npjnpj View Drop Down
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Points: 2720 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 09:31
Now that Floyd decision I find weird.

Isn't that a bit like holding the rights to a book and insisting the whole thing be quoted instead of individual passages?
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Points: 5482 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 09:32
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

Now that Floyd decision I find weird.

Isn't that a bit like holding the rights to a book and insisting the whole thing be quoted instead of individual passages?
No. It's not.
 
It's like saying a publisher can sell a book, but cannot sell chapters individually.
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Points: 57 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 10:28
If Greg could/would survey all the people who have ever downloaded or watched his concert appearances online, he would find that 95 out of 100 of 'em* have also purchased much of his official product over the years. The people he scolds are in fact the ones who enjoy, support, and care the most about his work.

Being a bit bitter over today's easy availability of music is certainly not uncommon for an artist who's been releasing music since the '60s. And yes, outright piracy of officially released product has always been a drain on the artist and record company. But pooh-poohing the presence of his live work online, however unauthorized much of it is, only serves to erode his own fan base. Lake's similarly aged industry colleagues Weir, Lesh & Co. had it figured out some time ago, and are none the worse for wear - and I'll bet the GD legend actually grew because of it! Lake should treat his fan-recorded online postings as free advertising and publicity, because that's what it almost always is!

Let's just chalk this up to a moment's anger from Lake. Hopefully, some fresh lucidity is right around the corner for the man.

* the numbers are my own somewhat educated guess-timate.
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tamijo View Drop Down
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Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 10:34
Originally posted by Evolver Evolver wrote:

Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

Now that Floyd decision I find weird.

Isn't that a bit like holding the rights to a book and insisting the whole thing be quoted instead of individual passages?
No. It's not.
 
It's like saying a publisher can sell a book, but cannot sell chapters individually.
Or it like saying dont cut my painting into smaler pieces, to make more profit. 
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Points: 67 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 10:40
I respect Greg's wishes. Don't bootleg his shows! Whether or not we think it's a smart  thing to do or not , or whether you think he's being a mean bugger or not is not the point. HE deserves the final say, it's HIS music and HIS performance after all. He's also one of the greats of progrock, deserves some respect after all he's done and where would prog be without him? Other bands are ok with live bootlegs, HE isn't. Nuff said.
 
I'd also like to mention that when someone lends somebody some CDs and their friends make copies, that DOES rob the artist of a few potential album sales. If everyone does this with maybe, 2 friends (that actually like prog) each and the friends do not end up buying the album, it chops record sales by two thirds.
 
I think the reason Greg Lake, and many other artists are "paranoid" as you say, is that all artists are facing a decline in record sales by about two thirds or more. Obviously sites from Russia or wherever that sell bootlegged albums are much worse, but everything plays a part.
 
I think the right thing to say,  when you're going to lend someone a CD of a band is, "I can't stop you making a copy of this, but if you listen to it and like it, PLEASE consider buying that album, or even another album by the band. In other words, find some way to pay the artist. Otherwise many artists will continue to be in the poorhouse and eventually won't be able to make any more albums, or will give up in disgust as Martin Orford did, and what a loss that was.
 
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Blacksword View Drop Down
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 11:04
In principle I agree with him.

I'm not going to bother saying anything more. It's already been said.

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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sigod View Drop Down
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Points: 2779 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 11:16
Wise words there mate.
 
 
I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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Blacksword View Drop Down
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Points: 16130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2010 at 11:35
Originally posted by sigod sigod wrote:

Wise words there mate.
 

 


Thanks mate. I'm off for a nice mug of Horlicks with Reo Speedwagon. Great bunch of guys, where would daytime radio be without them..?
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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