Greg Lake’s rant against bootlegs and piracy.
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72874
Printed Date: November 27 2024 at 14:33
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Topic: Greg Lake’s rant against bootlegs and piracy.
Posted By: Adams Bolero
Subject: Greg Lake’s rant against bootlegs and piracy.
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 14:56
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I was amazed to see on his website that Greg posted a lengthy and sometimes bitter rant against people taping his shows and sharing them. I can see his reasons behind it but theirs no need to call some of his fans ‘’intellectually challenged’’. He coldly declares that he ‘’will have no hesitation whatsoever in commencing legal proceedings against you for the recovery of our property or compensation for the loss plus any damages.’’ That’s some way to treat fans who just like a recording of the show they have attended. His patronizing tone has almost put me off his music. I know Robert Fripp is like that but I don’t remember him calling his fans ‘’intellectually challenged’’. Here is the link http://www.greglake.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1276278713/0 - http://www.greglake.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1276278713/0 You will need to be a member to read it. I will post the full text in the next comment.------------- ''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.'' - Albert Camus |
Replies:
Posted By: Adams Bolero
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 14:57
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Here it is in full for those who aren’t members: ‘’Anyone taping shows and then distributing them to the general public is stealing. The fact that they are apparently giving these things away or "sharing them" as they sometimes like to put it is absolutely no excuse. ------------- ''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.'' - Albert Camus |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 14:58
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Fair comment. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Adams Bolero
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:02
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Oh and ''Gill Gates'' is Greg's mistake not mine. Someone posted on his forum that it's ''Bill's similarly well-off evil twin.'' ------------- ''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.'' - Albert Camus |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:08
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Yeah, donuts aren't cheap, gotta protect yourself from the lost revenue from sh*tty youtube uploads.
Ummm....The nerdier people may correct me here, but I'm pretty sure this makes no sense. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Adams Bolero wrote:Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:11
Thats because its a rant.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:23
| All I can picture is some nerdy kid in a basement downloading ELP when suddenly a big armadillo breaks through the wall. "Looks like you're not a lucky man!" |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:26
 Thank you, you just made my day.------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:26
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I hate to say this, but I've lost a little bit of respect for Greg Lake after reading that. Does he honestly think that crappy YouTube uploads are killing the music business? All YouTube uploads do is give a band more exposure. No one's seriously going to say "I saw a bootleg of Karn Evil 9 on YouTube, so I now I refuse to buy Brain Salad Surgery or ever see ELP live". It just doesn't work that way. Although bootlegging and sharing the MP3's could be considered piracy, the same thing applies to a lesser extent here as well. No one is going to say "I have a bootlegged version of Karn Evil 9, so I won't ever see ELP live". Maybe he's just greedy, and doesn't want his fans hearing his work live. It's impossible to go to every concert, and for die-hard fans, bootlegs are great. It gives his fans an opportunity to hear his performances that they couldn't attend. I do, however, understand his stance, but calling his fans "intellectually challenged" is stepping over the line IMO. ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:31
| Speaking personally (not as an admin) I think the thread title is unfortunate. "Greg lake speaks..etc." would have been better, leaving it to the ensuing debate to ponder whether it's a rant or not. |
Posted By: Kojak
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:32
| I'm kinda inclined to agree with you, J-Man. I buy approximately 90% of what I find on youtube. For me, it's like a big advert, it's how I hunt down music and films, etc, that I like. Infact, if I can't check something out on youtube or similar and have no other way of checking it out, like from a friend, I probably won't buy it. There's just too much stuff out there, I can't buy it all, I need to test it first. |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:35
The way he said it is incorrect, he's probably talking about your IP Address. Which there are ways around, but if you are using those, chances are pirating musical performances isn't your interest so much as hacking.
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Posted By: mourningknight
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:36
 ------------- 
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:43
| Greg Lake isn't very smart these days, is he? Poor man... |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:52
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 15:59
Exactly my point. I can't tell you how many bands I've checked out thanks to MP3 or YouTube samples. Without those, I would have no idea what the band sounds like. Now, for most people, this isn't the case with ELP - most people already know what ELP sounds like. However, online YouTube videos are just as equally good, except for different reason. Since ELP has a big following, it gives their fans a chance to check out their latest shows. There's really no downside to YouTube clips, from any perspective. The reason why some bands aren't selling well is because of piracy of albums, not bootlegs. Keep in mind that you can't buy a bootleg directly from a band, thus the artist isn't losing any business from bootlegging. If anything, the artist is just gaining more exposure. The artist may be losing money from downloading of full-length albums. Blaming this on bootlegs is just a silly thing to do IMO. -------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 16:19
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All I deduce from this is that someone is not as well off as he used to be.
btw sheer genius Padraic
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 16:28
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I went to a gallery; there was an Picasso exhibition. If friend of mine took a photo of me with famous Picasso's painting, and if I publish that photo on Facebook, is that a crime? Downloading loads of albums via torrents is one thing, but a crappy bootleg? Give me a break. ------------- |
Posted By: Adams Bolero
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 16:28
The post of the month! ------------- ''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.'' - Albert Camus |
Posted By: The Wrinkler
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 16:30
Rofl |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 16:38
I have a word about this,
As far as i know ELP and Greg Lake have prevented many sharing music sites to share their Unnoficial Live Recordings, so those sites respect what Greg wishes, like Fripp Wishes and PT wishes, and many other bands that don't want that any unnoficial material are shared.
Do this going to stop poor sales or download concerts, official material, et. al.? NO! millions and i say millions of illegal and unnoficial material are still flows in the internet, Greg have said that the author is the owner of the material and he's right, but he can't prevent the misuses of that material, for example " i have a friend that request me to lend a couple of cd's of ELP, do i have to warn him not to copy??, pleeeease is the first thing that usually done, and specially if my friend have a poor personal income, do we violate the copyright doing that?, NOOOO, because the Berna agreement, prevents that a person can do a copy of a work (book, music, etc.) for only purpose of personal use or research, many of us got a copy of the old vinyls with a cassette, now the technology allow us to have almost pristine identical copies of a cd, a dvd, etc.
The misuse starts when you have an income for selling copies of official material to the general public, now that's a felony and punishment have to be, but about the unnofficial material... it's more difficult to trace and any artist that was taped in a show and discovers that many of his performances are now free distribute or shared via internet or ordinary mail, how can them going to trace every single show on earth??
I think that one thing to prevent is like Pearl Jam or Gov't Mule do, tape their shows and offers to the general public and a very reasonable prize, i think that with that they cannot prevent the free sharing but at least can have some profit selling their shows.
just my 2 cents.
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 16:41
-------------
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 16:45
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You know, whether he's right doesn't even matter. I think if I was a recording artist, I'd have to be fatalistic about this and just say "Well, people are going to do it. They just are. I have to deal with that."
But I wouldn't make statements like this because historically it turns the internet against you and the hardcore subsequently make a point of pirating your music, which then spreads into the general netizen domain.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 18:19
------------- What? |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 18:24
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 18:54
Not to be confused with your MACDADDYHIP address.  Back to topic. I respect the artists prerogative on this. Besides with all the live DVDs that come out, it's kind of pointless to bootleg anyway. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 19:00
Well, he personally cracks me up anyway especially after my encounter with him at the Atlantic City Casinos. He did nothing but tell us how prog was nonsense. He was a real character that night. He flipped out on 2 promoters when we were on the second floor. His face was red and he threw his arms into the air yelling at them while customers stared at him trying to figure out if he was someone famous, or a staff worker. Later , after he had a few drinks, he told the old stories and laughed at the bar. I have to admit that when he screamed at those promoters, I almost busted out laughing. He told us that he was a Christian. I have no doubt that he is polite with people and basically a good person but I think maybe he has had enough with the music biz. As he walked the floor and was approached by the occasional fan, he rolled his eyes. He seems to dislike dealing with his public image. I can see him having that patronizing tone and his talk of legal proceedings......He is still funny to me though |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: November 03 2010 at 19:53
MAC addresses can also be spoofed.
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Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 00:33
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Yeah he is really barking up the wrong tree going after concert recordings. Clearly Greg Lake is not a master of the google search. And I don't know if he realizes how much money it would cost to track down and go after everyone who downloaded anything. He'd make more money on hypothetical record sales if he just ignored it really. ------------- 
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 01:00
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I don't think anyone here would argue that bootlegging for profit is NOT stealing so Greg's basic premise seems sound but not even he could have eaten his way through the vast millions he earned while with ELP surely? On a more realistic note, I also don't believe bootleggers would even consider pirating his solo material or concerts as viable (he has barely produced a demi semi quaver of decent music on his own after 1976) What's interesting about ELP is the ploy they used to attempt to defeat the pirates by releasing the best audio quality bootlegs available as a legitimate boxed set (The Official Bootleg Series from the Manticore Vaults Volumes 1 - 3 in 2001) Some of this material is decent sound quality and some is atrocious but putting the boot on the other foot - why should ELP fans pay top dollar for products that are below commercial release standard just so the trio can attempt to recoup some of the losses from the aforementioned pirates? (That's like the cops selling us the moonshine they confiscated from the gangsters) ------------- 
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 02:10
Yep lovely irony that.
There is also a little story recounted by Keith Emerson that Carl Palmer walked out of a record shop in Japan with a bunch of ELP bootlegs under his arm. Didn't pay for them (tight git apparently) and then some of them appeared on that aforementioned box set.
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 02:48
I laughed so hard when I read this I almost choked on the coffee I was drinking at the time! -------------  |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 10:15
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Sorry, I don't see YouTube as being the same as piracy or file sharing. Hasn't the industry reached agreement with them regarding payment for material posted? LOVE the armadillo post ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 10:32
That's right and also the are many more artist who used to record his shows, notably Pink Floyd and the Zepps, some with very high pristine sound ------------- |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 10:37
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Is he gonna sue fans who record 5 mins. of video on their iphone and post it to youtube? Really? ------------- |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 10:54
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I am on Greg's side. I am sick of all this new technology hijacking talent.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 11:36
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I picture Greg writing this on a stenopad with a BIC ball point pen with the pocket clip. Drinking Coors beer from an aluminum can and taking hits off his 6 foot tall water bong he bought in 1973. I could see after 14 bowls of grass him coming up with this letter....
Greg, wake up and smell the gigabytes........its not going to stop. But I repect his efforts for sure. -------------   
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 11:44
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lol @ the thought of Greg Lake having tracking software that shows the IP addresses of each person who downloads an ELP album, then finding out who their ISPs are, then petitioning each of them to punish their customers, which they won't do at all because they don't have to by law and they don't want to lose customers. Oh and that would only have a chance of working for .torrents. And that's the only way music is shared EVER. Whether you're right or wrong to be angry doesn't matter so much as you apparently don't know how the internet works, Greg. You're in over your head to say the least. And finally, as if ELP didn't have few enough fans, this will surely help! |
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 14:22
I'd say this "new technology" (hardly new, it's been around for over 10 years now) has HIGHLIGHTED more talent than it has hijacked. However, I agree that downloading official releases is wrong, though I'm always uncertain about calling it "stealing". At any rate, you are listening to the artists music in a way they did not agree too, so I can't get behind such a thing. Bootlegs, however, are a different story. I suppose if they are being sold in a shop or on-line, they are clearly illegal and people should know better than to buy them. But "trading", where no money is involved, of material that is not available commercially and is not professionally recorded, well, I just can't see how this harms the artist. First, they are not loosing money by any definition, as the never were marketing this material in the first place. Second, I can't imagine anyone being satisfied with having only bootlegs of a band. Most will want an official recording of some sort. Of course, now a days this introduces the problem of whether they will buy the official product or download a torrent for free. Personally, I would always pay for the official recordings. But I think that may not be the majority view these days. In any case, I think Greg makes himself look bad with such a rant, even if his arguments are sound (which they mostly are). Denigrating your fans is no way to promote your music. |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 18:54
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I was not pleased with Greg's words too, but it seems nobody mentioned one thing - bootlegs are out of artists' control in terms of sound, performance and production quality. It's artist's right to be recorded only in the way he likes it. I remember MOSTLY AUTUMN released in 2003 three live albums with similar contents (specially for those who wants to have all records) in order to prevent fans from bootlegging. And I can understand this. From the other hand, lots of live performances are documented only due to bootlegs. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 20:32
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Hi,
Dear Greg
I do not feel sorry for you or ELP if you feel that you are getting ripped off by your very fans. I really doubt that someone would pay the exhorbitant price to see your show, simply to record it and to give it away, or sell it to their friends and relations.
I also feel, that your need for money, is ... perhaps underlying some other motives, and I would love to suggest that you try to recoup some of the money you guys wasted on electricity a few golden years ago, and perhaps appreciate what the music was about a lot more than just "money" ... or "entertainment". You certianly had no concerns with the money at that time, so, if I may ask, why is this a problem now?
One last thing, and I'm not a moralist at all ... but you might read up a little bit on The Grateful Dead ... the one band that gave it away left and right, has never been worried about money and has a faithful following that is still buying. So, while you are not (perhaps) wanting to give up the royal chalet in the Caribean, maybe you ought to appreciate your fans a lot more and delete that note from the website.
I do agree that it is how an "artist" can make a living, but in the end, you guys stopped producing a long time ago, and the only thing that you guys have come up with recently is yet another tour of the dead trojan horse. It doesn't say much for your output or Keith's though Carl appears to be ok with touring 2 other dead trojan cows!
And, for the record, there are a lot of musicians and artists out there, that are simply not interested in your chalet's and your riches. And are plenty happy to sing their tunes and be appreciated and not be offended and insulted by your words.
I will forgive you this time, since I appreciate your "acting" and "words" in many a song, and I was "there" at the time when the music meant something important to you and I ... but today ... I think you are banging a head against the proverbial wall ... there are cell phones and iPod's good enough to record a whole show and then some ... and one of these days the laws will give the users that freedom to your chagrin and mine ... it's just like that photographer that took your picture singing, and you have it in the wall ... and today's camera is that cell phone ... it's still the same thing ... but you have to give the fans something ... hopefully it will be worth more to the fans, than just a simple recording.
We do need to be careful when we impose yesterday's rule on today's people and vice versa. You are well educated and know enough to know ... that is a problem and has forever been in history ... and it isn't going to change because Greg Lake said so. Or me, or Jesus, or anyone else.
With much care and appreciation, I will at least say thank you for some great music and words.
Pedro ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: November 04 2010 at 20:52
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I love Lake's phony presumptions here about capitalism, "democracy" and profit You think fictitious values can last? Lake is begging the question, if there is no intrinsic profit value in music, then it should be given for free. Otherwise you truly really are screwed. Capitalism is screwed with the value of social products - already books, music, information, communication soon to be everything. No real values, no profit system. Get over it or let it get over you. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 02:57
There's certainly been some strong feedback on this thread.
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Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 03:11
| Seems like a slap in the face to his fans for him to be that embittered towards him. People are more likely to buy his stuff if he doesn't seem like such a dick... |
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 03:16
| That's what I was saying before. Acting like a dick while simultaneously knocking a common practice on the internet (really doesn't matter if the practice is right or wrong) is a recipe for disaster because the internets can take you on and turn you out if it feels like it. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:12
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I sympathise with the man, but practically Padorra's Box is open, and mainly the artists, owners, and distributors will have to deal with it to protect themselves from bancrupcy. Buggered if I have the slightest idea about how this could be done though. Unfortunately it seems that anyone shouting for their ownership rights not to be violated is regarded as hopelessly behind the times. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:27
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I saw Greg Lake at the Orchard Theatre in Dartford a few years ago. Now as far as I know there is no official CD or DVD that I can buy of this performance. If I had recorded or filmed it and then sold it on eBay/YouTube/whatever, am I actually depriving Greg of income, has he suffered any loss.?
He will probably argue this is irrelevant. Any thoughts?
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:39
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(Notwithstanding the copyright laws applicable to the site) If I collected all your posts to date on PA and submitted them to a publisher who decided to publish them and the book became a success, wouldn't you feel cheated if I collected all the royalities?
-------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:54
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^ At last we've found a use for all those religion threads ...
...I'm just popping along to http://www.createspace.com/ - CreateSpace , back in a bit.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 08:58
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 09:12
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Noone is actualy attacking the kid, listning to Youtube. And i dont think anyone have been or will be put in jail for downloading a few songs, or even uploading a "bad" video. As long as its not in an organized way.
On the other hand if you upload 200 albums from your collection (that you most likely downloaded yourself), you are seriusly breaking artist rights, and its only fair that you will pay a price. What i personally find interesting, is why Fripp and Gregorius are so frontal in the way they deal with copyrights. Is it something to do with the fact that they are representing an Anarkistic force in music, and now are paranoid about the monster they created - there own fanbase LOL
They know that many of the people interested in Prog. are the excact same kind of person, having a "free" mind about what is mine and what is yours, and they dont know how to deal with that, so they "overdue" the artist rights, sharing is stealing, and all that Jazz.
On a side note, people should not forget, that Fripp and others are fighting the record industry, trying to keep artist rights on the hand of the artist, and that is a great course.
Not so long ago Floyd won in court, that the Record compagnies should not be allowed to sell downloads of single tracks, if the artist have only sold the right to distribute an album as a hole. I firmly belive in that kind of thinking.
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 09:30
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Just because the Internet has made it easy to distribute an artists material, that doesn't mean it isn't stealing. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 09:31
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Now that Floyd decision I find weird. Isn't that a bit like holding the rights to a book and insisting the whole thing be quoted instead of individual passages? |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 09:32
It's like saying a publisher can sell a book, but cannot sell chapters individually. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Steven in Atlanta
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 10:28
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If Greg could/would survey all the people who have ever downloaded or watched his concert appearances online, he would find that 95 out of 100 of 'em* have also purchased much of his official product over the years. The people he scolds are in fact the ones who enjoy, support, and care the most about his work. Being a bit bitter over today's easy availability of music is certainly not uncommon for an artist who's been releasing music since the '60s. And yes, outright piracy of officially released product has always been a drain on the artist and record company. But pooh-poohing the presence of his live work online, however unauthorized much of it is, only serves to erode his own fan base. Lake's similarly aged industry colleagues Weir, Lesh & Co. had it figured out some time ago, and are none the worse for wear - and I'll bet the GD legend actually grew because of it! Lake should treat his fan-recorded online postings as free advertising and publicity, because that's what it almost always is! Let's just chalk this up to a moment's anger from Lake. Hopefully, some fresh lucidity is right around the corner for the man. * the numbers are my own somewhat educated guess-timate. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 10:34
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: january4mn
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 10:40
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I respect Greg's wishes. Don't bootleg his shows! Whether or not we think it's a smart thing to do or not , or whether you think he's being a mean bugger or not is not the point. HE deserves the final say, it's HIS music and HIS performance after all. He's also one of the greats of progrock, deserves some respect after all he's done and where would prog be without him? Other bands are ok with live bootlegs, HE isn't. Nuff said.
I'd also like to mention that when someone lends somebody some CDs and their friends make copies, that DOES rob the artist of a few potential album sales. If everyone does this with maybe, 2 friends (that actually like prog) each and the friends do not end up buying the album, it chops record sales by two thirds.
I think the reason Greg Lake, and many other artists are "paranoid" as you say, is that all artists are facing a decline in record sales by about two thirds or more. Obviously sites from Russia or wherever that sell bootlegged albums are much worse, but everything plays a part.
I think the right thing to say, when you're going to lend someone a CD of a band is, "I can't stop you making a copy of this, but if you listen to it and like it, PLEASE consider buying that album, or even another album by the band. In other words, find some way to pay the artist. Otherwise many artists will continue to be in the poorhouse and eventually won't be able to make any more albums, or will give up in disgust as Martin Orford did, and what a loss that was.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 11:04
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In principle I agree with him.
I'm not going to bother saying anything more. It's already been said. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: sigod
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 11:16
Wise words there mate.
 ------------- I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision. - Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 11:35
Thanks mate. I'm off for a nice mug of Horlicks with Reo Speedwagon. Great bunch of guys, where would daytime radio be without them..? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 13:50
Right, but not pissing his fan base. ------------- |
Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 15:09
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it's great that Greg had time to think about this while Keith Emerson was lying in a hospital thinking he was about to die and i disagree about bootlegs they have been recorded since the 70's Bootlegs of Pink Floyd ELP Yes Genesis Led Zeppelin Grateful Dead The Who The Rolling Stones... have existed in their masses for well over 30 years and none of them have cost the bands a penny. Downloading an album illegally costs a band money but Lake didn't even mention it he is talking about Concert bootlegs it costs them nothing it is just a bitter stance. -------------  
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 15:42
The sadder part of it all, was that his first two solo albums only had 2 good things in it ... the it was Garry Moore that made them better, and the rest is really forgettable and then some. And the 2nd album ... it's embarassing, if you ask me.
Which makes me think that he is milking all he can out of ELP and KC before he can't!
And he's concerned with bootlegs and piracy? ... I think we should send him a mirror for Christmas! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 15:44
Only if you were silly enough to be flying color balls all the time and show people how many artists you actually ripped off!
But, I doubt that you would rip anyone off that bad ... you would at least buy us a nice meal! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 16:03
The top ten bootlegs in 1973 were ... something like this:
Grateful Dead
Bob Dylan
Grateful Dead
Bob Dylan
Led Zeppelin
Led Zeppelin
Led Zeppelin
Grateful Dead
Pink Floyd
The Who
The Fool
Of course, there were a lot more bootlegs, but not all of them ... were worth it. Why? They were truly different, distinct, and worth the listen. Bob Dylan didn't like repeating himself, and thus you ended up with 20 different versions of his songs. Grateful Dead in those days, had long cuts and some jams that went all night long, and some of the bootlegs had these ... the majority of these jams never got released and it is the best part of the band all around.
Led Zeppelin bootlegs were known for the energy in concert that LZ had ... that would blow off the audience for a full hour before they took a breath and what is STILL one of the most inspiring use of staging and music material that simply took the audience by storm ... you could not help it, but appreciate the ability, desire and the care, to do something like that so many times, and never get bored with it ... and it was strong. Not all recordings were great, but the energy was awesome and then some. They may have been devil'ish in the hotels and bedrooms, but in concert, they were the truest dervishes in rock music you ever saw or heard.
Pink Floyd, had all the sound effects and far out stuff that died after Dark Side of the Moon with the end of the bootleg era (so to speak) as Pink Floyd became more famous they made sure they covered all their tracks and there were no more leaks in the sound board!
The Who, was a hit and miss thing. Some nights they were amazing and others horrible. But never boring.
The Fool was a crazy folk/rock community that was as psychedelic as they come ... totally unknown but they make "progressive" and "prog" look and sound so stupid and formulaic that ... LA area, btw.
You want to know the two worst bootlegs I ever heard and saw? ELP and Genesis! ELP was out of tune, and Genesis must have had a terribly sick off night ... when Peter was going right and the band was going left and vice versa! It was one of the reasons why ELP went for the "show" and the crazy stuff ... they couldn't play their own music and make it right and as good as the original! So why the heck would I even want to put your stuff on the web, Greg? To embarass you? ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 05 2010 at 21:53
Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about Pirates.  Greg will soon put pennies on their eyes. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 06 2010 at 10:22
. It's ridiculous. People need to see every concert of ELP? For what?
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 06 2010 at 10:27
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 06 2010 at 10:40
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 06 2010 at 10:45
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: November 06 2010 at 11:03
I am sorry, these are concert BOOTLEGS he's talking about. Some of these so-called 'bootlegs' in question are just extremely poor cellphone recordings and they are not a substitute for a good live recording as precious little can be heard amid all the noise and clutter and anybody who thinks THOSE will deprive them of album sale revenues must be paranoid beyond belief. His points on downloading are valid but he's lumping both the things together. Now, if somebody brought sophisticated recording equipment in and made a clean and marketable recording or simply made illegal CD copies of an official live recording, that's indeed not on. I doubt with the amount of frisking that happens at concerts, certainly those of bands as big as ELP, the former can be done anymore. As for good bootlegs made maybe in the 70s of shows ELP have released being shared with listeners, the armadillo is free to have a word with you. 
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Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: November 06 2010 at 11:51
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taking a bootleg at a concert is NOT stealing bootlegging is basically taking a souvenir from the concert you payed to attend. If you then sell the bootleg you are in the wrong but you aren't stealing or costing the band any money. Some people seem to be misconstruing this for a comment against album piracy but it isn't this is about concert bootlegs which are just collectors items not serious alternatives to paying for music -------------
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Posted By: Kestrel
Date Posted: November 07 2010 at 01:05
| I wish this kind of video recording had been around during the Gabriel era of Genesis :/ |
Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: November 07 2010 at 03:46
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Perhaps they should only perform "In the Hot Seat" in its entirety from now on when they play live. That should surely end this bootlegging problem. ------------- https://www.last.fm/user/Tapfret" rel="nofollow">  https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 07 2010 at 06:30
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 07 2010 at 11:42
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That's the funny thing about ELP and Greg Lake, they haven't put out anything all that good since the '70's. I suspect the record company get's the lion's share off of that and he's bitching about bootlegging? Who actually gives a damn about any new stuff to bother to do so?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: November 07 2010 at 12:59
sorry I've read your post a few times and simply can't fathom what your point is
I have bought ELP product over and over and over . Most of there albums have been reissued 5 times on CD. I buy all of them. I buy their individual albums and DVD's as well and will always go to concerts when they tour as solo artists and pay whatever price they choose to charge.Greg should appreciate his fans not look down his nose at the likes of me. He is a prickly sod but this rant for me is completely out of order and will only serve to alienate fans like me who have helped to keep his bank balance reasonably healthy over the years (or at least thats what I thought)
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Posted By: 40footwolf
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 00:34
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Have you noticed that all of the people who posts these diatribes-the Gene Simmonses and Greg Lakes of the world-are all shambling husks of their former selves, both as people and as musicians? This strikes me as another case of one of these old lions just not understanding how the modern world works. Does Greg sincerely think that if people see a crap quality video of an ELP show on Youtube that'll prevent them from going to see them live? If so he has no right to be calling anyone "intellectually challenged", since he has no idea how the consumer mind functions. ------------- Heaven's made a cesspool of us all. |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 00:49
Oh, I don't know. I find his surly demeanor quite amusing, myself.
I can laugh at his expense and still enjoy the good music he once made. If anything, I take pity on the old coot. Must be very hard when the world doesn't stagnate along with you, and you're unwilling to catch up. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 06:18
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The last ELP I've bought is the Return To Manticore box set. For the most part a really good collection. I really like the new versions of old stuff on the first disc.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 06:58
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 07:15
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I've spent thousands and thousands of pounds in Marks & Spencer's so tomorrow I am going to my local store to help myself to a couple of suits and maybe a roast chicken and some veggies. Seems fair enough doesn't it? |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 07:19
OK, Lake has put on a few pounds since the ELP heyday, but that hardly makes him a "shambling husk".
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 07:21
If you grow up in a family business or work in law firms for years, or the music business like Greg did and things change for the worse, the bitterness has more to do with how rules and laws are no longer in the best interest of the musician, lawyer, or the independent business owner. It doesn't matter if they are dinosaurs and grew up during the trippy hippy brainwashing 60's. It's more about how practices that were once rewarding are now disregarded. That's why it would be more healthy for Greg to retire. |
Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 08:45
are you serious??? bootleg tapes are not products in the first place so how can they be 'stolen' Pink Floyd didn't release any live albums from their hey day but there are hundreds of bootlegs from that era so if someone owns one of them are they stealing anything? ELP released the live album from their brain salad surgery tour and there are also many bootleg tapes of them from that tour but none of them even come close to serving as an alternative to Welcome back my friends... and nobody who owns them would search them out for that use in the first place they are just collectors items that fans or enthusiasts of a band might enjoy -------------
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 09:10
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The music on the bootlegs is Lake's property. He is entitled to make whatever restrictions he wants about his own property, surely. Just taking it without his permission because you have "got him to where he is now" is still theft. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 09:11
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As far as the audio quality of bootlegs is concerned: Only those performances that are captured from so-called 'soundboard' recordings come anywhere near official legit releases of live albums. These recordings are taped direct from the mixing desk after a suitably complicit engineer is slipped some moola by a pirate. The alternative 'audience' tapes are almost invariably unlistenable and anyone parting with cash for such is a damn fool IMO. All of which certainly does not condone 'stealing' but perhaps some artists need to look a bit closer to home before casting the first stones in the fans direction for piracy. If they exercised a bit more scrutiny to those staff directly in their employ (e.g. mixing desk operators) the proliferation of material deemed of sufficient audio quality to merit the exchange of cash, would diminish. -------------
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Posted By: topographicbroadways
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 09:13
of course it isn't completely fair but it isn't what costs artists money if you pirate an album that is costing the artist money but if you buy a ticket to their show and take a tape recorder with you and maybe share the recording you take with people is that costing the artist money? you do not own the content that point is fair but in this and a lot of people on this thread it is being implied that bootlegging is causing artists to go broke it never has for anybody before and it never will -------------
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 09:24
Breaking news:Researchers discover how to erase memoryhttp://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-erase-memory.html - www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-erase-memory.htmlIf Greg Lake finds out this, we're doomed. You paid for a ticket for a 2 hour concert, you don't have a right to remember it or tell impressions to your friends. That specific cluster of organized neuron cells in your brain is Greg's property. ------------- |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 09:31
| If somebody takes my old broken TV from out my garage, it is still theft. Whether I pursue the matter by reporting the theft is very much up to me. |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 09:32
I wonder if they can erase the memories of an Angelwitch gig I once attended? |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 10:10
Greg Lake is entitled to have a rant about this And why do people keep referring to his size? Some people really struggle with weight gain when they get older. Pick on some skinny people for a change :-)------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 10:13
Nothing could erase that memory. It is properly burned deep in. Actually my friend loves Angelwitch. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 12:28
What it is, a Greg Lake love-in?As far as I'm aware, the major complaints from folks isn't because he's upset about his music being listened to by millions via the internet... it's because he's gone out of his way to talk smack about his fans and speak of them as if they're trash.
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 12:29
What if your broken TV somehow ended up in a public arena where millions of people could access it? Without any clear indication of who stole it, if anybody even did? Who would you blame, then?
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 12:30
Buying bootlegs is like you like to drink piss. ------------- |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 12:37
Ahh, takes me back to my student days... |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 12:43
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^
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 12:44
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Also the selling of the so called Bootlegs, affects Greg Lake Shows?, ELP shows?? (oh Sorry they RIP acording to Carl Palmer), affects selling of oficial material???, do you know how many hoarders and bootlegers sell unofficial material??? are they rich????
All of this answers is clear NO.
The "bootleg" thing is about 5% or less that's affecting their total income, they not steal official material, they used a show and make profit of that, that's the thief thing.
Many people share his shows over the internet, they are some that are with an outstanding material and sound, and they are free, nobody make profit of that.
Jimmy Page is well aware of the "Bootleg thing", in fact he often go to Japan and enter the places in which they are selling bootlegs of Zeppelin, Page and Plant and his solo tours, he take what he wants and leave, so my conclusion is that he have a vast collection of shows and also his soundboards of many live shows, Did somebody knows that his latest "Live Album" of Zeppelin comprises two shows? Long Beach and LA Forum.
Same as Genesis with his Shrine Auditorium Lamb show, Gabriel and Hackett overrdubbed his voice and guitar in some tracks (notably Carpet Crawlers), i preffer no to do that.
So, my solution to Greg (and to maintan ELP selling) is do what Zappa done and Deep Purple, Neil Young and many more, grab your soundboard and make them official, so you can start "The ELP Live Archive", and many people (including) surely buy.
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: November 08 2010 at 12:54
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Typically the fans that are active in sharing music have already purchased all official releases and are starving for more. They're the ones that spend a big part of their earnings seeing your band in concert, buying your shirts, etc. It's a shame to attack the ones that support your dream. ------------- |