The fathers of Prog Metal

CPicard wrote: Other: Thin Lizzy.

Eh?

chopper wrote: CPicard wrote: Other: Thin Lizzy. Eh?

THAT'S THE JOKE.

Easy, the one that has ever been remotely related to metal

Yes, for Machine Messiah :P

Seriously, I'm not honestly sure. Prog metal influences have been around since prog's start really and there's no concrete answer. I would say that the bands in this poll may have been proto progressive metal but it wasn't until the late 80s where it really started to pop up.

Nektar is

progbethyname wrote: I vote (other) for Dream Theater.

Black Sabbath.

Dean wrote:   While I do recognise the logic that for there to have been a New Wave Of British Heavy Metal that presuposes that there was an Old Wave of British Heavy Metal before it, this isn't strictly true. The New Wave of epiphet was adopted in deference to the "New Wave" phenominon that was sweeping through mainstream music at that time. What came before was Heavy Rock.

progbethyname wrote: Dean wrote: progbethyname wrote: Dean wrote: progbethyname wrote: I vote (other) for Dream Theater. So what is your definiton of "fathers" presactly? When I think paterfamilias I think of someone that holds the most water or that is a large acting force that ultimately makes a very big lasting impression. Dream Theater started in 1985 but didn't get known till around 1992 with the incredible IMAGES AND WORDS release. It seems that so many bands like to try and take examples of Dream Theater's music from 1992 and on. They are the most influential band in the genre easily. I can't count how many modern prog metal bands take after albums like their IMAGES AND WORDS and OCTAVARIUM album. It's insane. The genre is owned by Dream Theater in a lot of ways. Bold claim? Maybe, but I know they are huge front runners for prog metal. We cannot deny that. :) Well, in a word, No. To be fathers of a genre you need to have had influence on all those emergent bands when the genre was forming, and Dream Theatre doesn't fit that bill; and you also should have had some influence on those bands that are also at the forefront of the genre, and again Dream Theatre falls short. Where, I may ask, is the connection between Dream Theatre and [or influence of Dream Theatre on] Savatage, Queensrÿche, Fates Warning, Pain Of Salvation, Therion, Ayreon, Opeth etc etc ad infinitum ad nauseum blah blah blah. Being influential on a few johnny-come-lately clones (and the number is not that big) is not the same as being the fathers of the genre. To do that you have to have broader influence, and while it is not an imperative, you really need to have been bigger (ie more popular) back then too to reach that broad spectrum of emergent bands. Possible candidates would be drawn from the Bay Area thrash scene or NWOBHM that gave rise not only to Prog Metal, but Power, Symphonic and Death Metal too. That's my theory anyway and it holds a lot more water than pinning everything on the shoulders of Dream Theatre if you ask me.   One thing that Dream Theatre does not do, is own the genre. You make some good points. I guess my feeling on the whole 'fatherhood' moniker with Dream Theater doesn't necessarily mean that they had to there (beginning stages of prog metal) to be the godfathers. I'm associating 'Fatherhood' with the meaning of a grand takeover. A new lasting impression if you will and Dream Theater have definitely done that. It started in 1992 and Sounds and structures from that album haven't rally left the prog metal genre. Metropolis pt 2 seems to be a major staple and soul example of what prog metal truly is and what it stands for. Even the 'Johnny come latelys' would agree. I believe Dream Theater have had a hand (influence) in all those bands you have listed even, especially AYREON. Dream Theater weren't the band that started it all, but they did come into the scene not that late and they are the most sought after paradigm that prog metal has to offer. Album sales have a little to do with that as well. 12milllion and counting. Might have a new album come out this year too! :)

And it's still a resounding no. Your definition of fatherhood is shifting from adoptive step-father to wicked child-catcher, casting Dream Theatre as a Fagin-like figure gathering the waiflike orphaned clones to his lair to pick a prog pocket or two boys. If you really think they have influenced all those bands then please give examples, because from what I see the influence goes in the opposite dirtection for some of them and is non-existant for others - the way you describe it they were so damn influential they influenced the bands they supported and the bands they covered in those formative years. Ayreon's influences are well documented both in interviews and on the albums Luccassen records, DT doesn't figure that high when compared to the list of influences that they both share - if Ayreon and Dream Theatre have a list of mutual influences then any simularities are due to that overlap.You cannot pull a 1999 concept album up as prime example when several of the bands I listed had produced equally as ambitious concept albums many years prior to that that also could be regarded as setting a standard for others to follow - do you think Scenes From A Memory was produced in total isolation from them?

Edited by Dean - April 30 2013 at 13:19

Sabbath.