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Paravion ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 01 2010 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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I was somewhat provoked by that, and I completely disagree. I can't believe he fails to understand (the substantial) difference between burning books and burning other symbols (eg. flags). It's true that flags and books both are symbols, but they differ in many aspects. The Koran is both a symbol of Islam but in a more general sense it's also a symbol of knowledge, wisdom, history, culture etc. (a symbolic feature it shares with books in general). Besides the symbolic content, a book also has 'real' content. When you burn the Koran, you perform the act of burning a symbol of Islam, but you also inevitably perform the act of burning a book - which evokes nauseating historical memories. It's an immensely stupid thing to do. A flag has merely symbolic content (and - also the material it's made of) I oppose to burning both flags and books (of course), but I find burning a book is far worse than burning a flag. And, surely, it is a big deal. I also wonder what kind of world the guy in video seems to be living in. He chooses to ignore the consequences of the act and ascribe more importance to his failed conclusion that 'it's just a book - it's not a big deal'. It is not 'just a book' and it is a big deal. He also mixes fiction with reality in his South Park example and says "Matt Stone and Trey Parker were doing the exact same thing". That's just ridiculous. And apparently it's also more important to 'stand up' for the right for religious extremist to 'protest', despite the extreme provocative aspects of their so called 'protest'. It's completely out of place to make this an issue of freedom of speech, actions, protests, whatever. My sentiment is that "freedom of speech" is not beyond common decency, and that it's out of place to put it on a pedestal every time someone wishes to severely provoke and hurt other people. I'm not religious, but I don't think religion is intrinsically, and only, a bad thing and that it - at all cost - has to be fought and argued against - you mostly can't argue with religious people. There is enough room in this world for both religious and non-religious people. Peace.
Edited by Paravion - September 11 2010 at 09:49 |
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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It is just a book, and it's only a big deal if you make it one - that was the point. The burning of a book only "hurts" people who choose to be hurt by it.
BTW: You only mentioned the Qur'an ... did you watch the video? |
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Paravion ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 01 2010 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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I got the point, that the Koran, Bible, and God Delusion got equal treatment.
Well, too late. It is a big deal.
Do you really think all Muslims at some point in their existence made a choice to be hurt by a book-burning event? Edited by Paravion - September 11 2010 at 10:00 |
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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^ So freedom of speech ends whenever someone chooses to be insulted?
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Paravion ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 01 2010 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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Again - I don't think it makes sense to speak about 'choice'. Freedom of speech has limits, surely. It's misplaced to elevate it to an extend where it becomes legitimate to do harm, insult and severely provoke other people just for the sake of it.
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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^ I disagree. There is no harm in him burning some of his books and publishing a video of him doing that. If you think there is, please demonstrate the actual harm.
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Paravion ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 01 2010 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 470 |
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He's harmless. But he talks in favor of book-burning extremists and defend their right to protest...
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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You don't think this right should be defended?
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Look freedom of speech is fine, but it has limits. If you're going to hurt someone's feelings, that's just not cool. If the government decides that you're gonna upset someone then like it should stop you because people have a right not to get insulted. I heard that this girl onetime killed herself because people made fun of her and like that's not right. So the government really knows best here and we should listen becasue they're just protecting us.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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Yeah, impressive. Really shocking etc..thought provoking whatever..
Books may just be paper, but this is just lazy thinking. Some books are sacred to many people, and a percentage of those people are prepared to shed blood over the burning of them. Let's not shed blood. Let's not burn their books, lets just ignore them, and let them get on with what they believe in. Lets act when their blind misguided faith threatens us, but for the meantime, when you see a wasps nest, don't poke it with a sh*tty stick. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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So to prevent a terrorist takeover of our country, which would result in a Sharia law dictatorship, we should restrict peoples rights so that they can't do the things with a Sharia law dictatorship would forbid.
Makes sense.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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^^^ So - you're saying that we should let the government decide in which cases freedom of speech should be granted?
I'm not saying that it's necessarily a good thing to provoke or deliberately insult people. But I also think that it's impossible to impartially say which statements should be permitted, and which should be censored. Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 11 2010 at 12:04 |
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Slartibartfast ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Thinning of the herd.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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I assume you meant to direct this towards Black.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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It's a tricky one, but this is not so much a case of exorcising ones right to free speech, it's do we allow people to deliberately incite hatred to the possible detriment of us all? He could have just started a campaign against the building of a mosque near the WTC site, but instead he chose to stage a provocative act against an entire religion, which could have led to US citizens - not just forces in Afghanistan - being exposed to violent reprisals, and possible terrorist attacks. In light of that he could be accessory to murder, maybe mass murder, and that is a crime however you choose to dress it up. Edited by Blacksword - September 11 2010 at 12:24 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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I assume you're talking about Terry Jones. I basically agree that his announcement to burn the Qur'ans was stupid beyond belief. But accessory to murder? Come on. The evil, morally wrong action in this story is that people would kill over such a statement.
If your solution is to censor free speech so as to not provoke any terrorist attacks, the terrorists have already won. |
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Henry Plainview ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
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It really annoys me when we are having the same discussion across multiple threads. :P There's a huge difference between burning a flag, The God Delusion, and a Quaran. Burning them to piss people off is stupid, but if you think people don't have the right to do so your position on freedom of expression frightens me.
Accessory to murder? How can he be held responsible for things other people do when he has never met them? Were the people at Columbine accessories to their own murders? That's a terrifying precedent you would be setting here.
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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^ Where's the difference? They're all symbols, and burning them is an extreme way to show your disagreement with what they stand for.
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zappaholic ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 24 2006 Location: flyover country Status: Offline Points: 2822 |
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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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^ Nice.
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