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octopus-4 View Drop Down
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Points: 14573 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 00:09
Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Well, I'm against their inclusion. Great band? Yes. Innovative as hell? Yes. Massively influential? Again, yes. But they are not prog, they are closer to punk.

well saidClap

No way can they be lumped in with prog - more New Wave meets punk

if they get in so should Toyah
 
... or Gary Numan? Wink
The fact that VU have been proto for many things other than prog doesn't mean that they shouldn't fit. Of course their inheritance is gone mainly to Patti Smith or Devo, not to Genesis, but from Devo came the Cardiacs....

it's not like Darwin's evolution the lines are dotted, not straight.
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 03:11
Devo for Proto? Yes please! Oh and Gary Numan... Wink
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Points: 14573 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 04:04
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

Devo for Proto? Yes please! Oh and Gary Numan... Wink


I have to confess that I've never listened to Gary Numan.
However we may add new categories like proto-avant (for Devo), post-proto (for Patti Smith) and proto-zeuhl (for Carl Orff).  

Jokes apart, VU don't fit in the current definition for proto-prog, but I wouldn't be too concerned in case they are added in some way. I see many similarities between Devo and Cardiacs and I have also written it in a review, but I don't mean that Devo are prog. 

I absolutely love Patti Smith and her new album is great. Not prog at all, but I prefer Patti Smith to Tori Amos.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 07:31
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:


it's not like Darwin's evolution the lines are dotted, not straight.


How does being dotted preclude a line from being straight?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Edited by thellama73 - July 13 2012 at 07:31
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Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 08:20
How about devo for Post-Proto-Prog.
Prog was not dead when they made 1st. album, but it was on Life-Sustaining Drugs Smoke
And Yes began to sound more like Velvet .....no i think that was Fripp..or was it Gabriel


Edited by tamijo - July 13 2012 at 08:27
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Points: 26138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 08:53
The Velvet Underground rift that we're playing out right now had its roots back in the 60s, with the rivalry between two underground bands on the Verve label, the Velvets and the Mothers of Invention.  Both seemed to be bent on claiming discovery of this new territory of Art Music.  One was very studied and virtuosic, the other was more spontaneous and simplistic.  Kind of a yin/yang thing, and a lot of people tend to come out on one side or the other.

My view is that both of them provided "seed crystals" out of which most Art Rock Music arose - including progressive rock, new wave, Krautrock, virtually any rock music that considers itself as an intellectual pursuit.

I'm not advocating their inclusion nor their exclusion, but I'm just trying to understand why it is that the Velvet Underground (who were virtually unknown while they were active, btw) are so divisive.  I had a feeling this thread would go past the first page and produce some lively debate, and it has.
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Points: 26138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 09:08
Looking back, my post above is a bit reductive, trying to derive all music from just two bands.  We all know it's isn't that cut and dry.  But it was a fun post to write anyway.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 09:12
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

Looking back, my post above is a bit reductive, trying to derive all music from just two bands.  We all know it's isn't that cut and dry.  But it was a fun post to write anyway.


Remember also that 1967 (the year of the Velvets' debut) is also the year in which Sgt. Pepper was released, and the year before included both the Mothers' debut and Pet Sounds. Both of those records had a huge influence on the productions techniques that would come to define prog and I would argue overshadowed Zappa and Reed's contributions (at least at the time.)
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 09:51
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

The Velvet Underground rift that we're playing out right now had its roots back in the 60s, with the rivalry between two underground bands on the Verve label, the Velvets and the Mothers of Invention.  Both seemed to be bent on claiming discovery of this new territory of Art Music.  One was very studied and virtuosic, the other was more spontaneous and simplistic.  Kind of a yin/yang thing, and a lot of people tend to come out on one side or the other.

My view is that both of them provided "seed crystals" out of which most Art Rock Music arose - including progressive rock, new wave, Krautrock, virtually any rock music that considers itself as an intellectual pursuit.

I'm not advocating their inclusion nor their exclusion, but I'm just trying to understand why it is that the Velvet Underground (who were virtually unknown while they were active, btw) are so divisive.  I had a feeling this thread would go past the first page and produce some lively debate, and it has.



Bravo!
Percussion, sir!
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Points: 26138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2012 at 10:02
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

Looking back, my post above is a bit reductive, trying to derive all music from just two bands.  We all know it's isn't that cut and dry.  But it was a fun post to write anyway.


Remember also that 1967 (the year of the Velvets' debut) is also the year in which Sgt. Pepper was released, and the year before included both the Mothers' debut and Pet Sounds. Both of those records had a huge influence on the productions techniques that would come to define prog and I would argue overshadowed Zappa and Reed's contributions (at least at the time.)

True, and that argument is made stronger by the fact that the Beatles and Beach Boys were infinitely more popular (and therefore had a greater chance to "influence") than VU and the Mothers put together, in addition to being just as innovative, if not more so.  I guess I'm thinking of the more avant-tendencies of Art Music, the conscious merging of rock music with Art (with a Capital "A"), with less commercial consideration involved.  *(though I do maintain that everyone wants to be popular, whether it be on their own terms or not).
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Points: 24646 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2012 at 14:12
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

Looking back, my post above is a bit reductive, trying to derive all music from just two bands.  We all know it's isn't that cut and dry.  But it was a fun post to write anyway.


Remember also that 1967 (the year of the Velvets' debut) is also the year in which Sgt. Pepper was released, and the year before included both the Mothers' debut and Pet Sounds. Both of those records had a huge influence on the productions techniques that would come to define prog and I would argue overshadowed Zappa and Reed's contributions (at least at the time.)

True, and that argument is made stronger by the fact that the Beatles and Beach Boys were infinitely more popular (and therefore had a greater chance to "influence") than VU and the Mothers put together, in addition to being just as innovative, if not more so.  I guess I'm thinking of the more avant-tendencies of Art Music, the conscious merging of rock music with Art (with a Capital "A"), with less commercial consideration involved.  *(though I do maintain that everyone wants to be popular, whether it be on their own terms or not).
 
I daresay the Velvet Underground can be credited with the invention of Art Rock indeed.
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2012 at 17:41
The VU have been discussed many times before:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80387&KW=velvet+underground&PID=4251955#4251955
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54642&KW=velvet+underground&PID=3104242#3104242
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52015&KW=velvet+underground
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48287&KW=velvet+underground

(the list goes on) I love the Velvets (together with Patti Smith, Television, Devo et al) but just don't think there is a place for them on PA. Arty/Bohemian rock does NOT prog make alas. As far as influence goes, the VU's indelible signature can be traced in practically every garage band that formed > 1970 and what has been called 'post-punk' is, to all intents and purposes, a phenomenon entirely of their own (unwitting) creation. The only trace of Reed & Co that I can hear in anything currently listed on PA, is certain types of Krautrock but even then, for me the influence is restricted to 'Rock leaves Psyche' and textual elements (literary sources of subject matter etc) Lou Reed once remarked that if a fan couldn't play one of his songs on a guitar after two listens, he considered he had failed in his task. That is a sentiment that smacks of a Punk/minimalist mindset. Lengthy improvisations, avant-garde flourishes, cluster chords and track length (Sister Ray) cannot equate in such a context to be Prog elements and I cannot hear any VU in Prog whatsoever
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Points: 4006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2012 at 15:25
VU's influence isn't restricted to Krautrock here at PA:
 
Mo Tucker's drumming has been credited as proto-motorik.
 
Chris Jones @BBC on Velvets & Nico album - 'Without this slice of plastic there would have been no glam rock, no krautrock and no punk.'
 
Eno @Mojo - 'I was pretty keen on Can... I felt they had picked up the gauntlet that the Velvet Underground had thrown down.'
 
Throbbing Gristle's P-Orridge was inspired by their primitivism, taboo lyrics, and cited them as a precursor to TG.
 
The VU's combination of pop, avant garde improvisation, artiness and sense of style was a major influence on Roxy Music.
 
VU were a major influence on Hawkwind. Robert Calvert said that Hawkwind's hypnotic Germanic riffs were derived from VU.  
 
@Guardian 2005 - 'Laurie Anderson is... one of few artists who have tried to carry on the darker, more experimental side of the Velvet Underground.
 
@Factmag - A Brief history of minimalism: 'The Velvets influenced pretty much all important music post-1967.'
 
@Culturefeast: 'Talking Heads were... were heavily influenced by the Velvet Underground. Their umbrella of influence in modern rock is overwhelming. Rock music like the Velvet Underground is timeless'
 
   
 
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