The Velvet Underground
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Suggest New Bands and Artists
Forum Description: Suggest, create polls, and classify new bands you would like included on Prog Archives
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=88241
Printed Date: March 04 2025 at 02:14
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Topic: The Velvet Underground
Posted By: Earendil
Subject: The Velvet Underground
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 12:53
| I searched but couldn't find any thread about the Velvet Underground. Is there a reason they haven't been included in the past under proto-prog or prog-related? They're just as "art rock" as David Bowie and definitely more experimental. |
Replies:
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 13:53
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I'd say yes to proto prog, their long improv jams were vital to the progression of progressive rock and they really were very experimental and influential. 10 bucks says they won't be added though. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 13:56
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Their name has been mentioned quite often in relation to proto-prog, by my humble person as well. I think their first three albums are really progressive (especially the first in 1966's context). ------------- 
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Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 14:40
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Hate to say it, but I doubt they'll be included anytime soon. The Velvet Underground & Nico is probably the most prog based of their works, but after that, those characteristics drop considerably. White Light/White Heat could be considered prog if looked through the lens of works like The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn (Pink Floyd), The Soft Machine (The Soft Machine), and Trout Mask Replica (Captain Beefheart), but that's pushing it and the last two albums (The Velvet Underground and Loaded) sound more like something from an indie band a la The Modern Lovers. Admittedly, it is possible to list the Velvet Underground as progressive rock, but by including them, it risks opening the floodgates for other acts like The Red Krayola or Pere Ubu, who have even less to do with what most associate with prog. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 14:48
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I think they would make for a fine inclusion actually. Allright I am a huge fan, but the way The Velvets approached music - their ability to weave strange instrumentation into the tunes(Nobody had ever used a viola like that - before Venus in Furs!!) - the whole notion of connecting music with art and a 'Factory* of imaginative skills seeking to highlight the best and most interesting of different subcultures - all of that is greatly infused in the music. Proto prog is a pretty good description - not only philosophically but also musically, as they clearly paved the way for a large number of bands already featured on this site. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 14:54
The closest they got to prog was actually White Light / White Heat and we shouldn't worry about opening the floodgates for other acts that clearly aren't as influential as the Velvet Underground was. Proto-prog would be an excellent fit. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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KingCrInuYasha wrote:Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 14:55
Couldn't agree more! ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 15:01
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Oh but I haven't got the time time... ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 15:02
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Well, I'm against their inclusion. Great band? Yes. Innovative as hell? Yes. Massively influential? Again, yes. But they are not prog, they are closer to punk.
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 15:18
That's why proto-prog is a better fit. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 21:57
You got me with the latter, but the former I have to disagree with just a bit. With VU & Nico, about half that album is proggish - specifically, "Venus In Furs", "Heroin", "All Tomorrow Parties", "The Black Angel's Death Song" and "European Son". ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 10 2012 at 22:20
I just don't think that everything experimental is automatically related to prog, proto or otherwise. -------------
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 11 2012 at 00:47
Apart from the title track and possibly "Lady Godiva's Operation" isn't all of White Light / White Heat pretty dang progressive?  ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 11 2012 at 00:48
Fair enough. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: July 11 2012 at 01:31
Every word of it, and I'll raise ya 10 more! |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 11 2012 at 13:00
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They were not a proto prog band. As someone else said, if anything, they formed a template for much of the 1970's New Wave in America. Experimental does not equate to prog. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: July 11 2012 at 18:28
well said  No way can they be lumped in with prog - more New Wave meets punk if they get in so should Toyah ------------- 
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: July 12 2012 at 02:00
... or Gary Numan?
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: July 12 2012 at 02:40
The thing with this is that you're using 21st C. terminology to describe a band form the mid-20th C. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but were the Moody Blues not classified as Proto on PA around six years ago? Bands are not isolated beings and just because VU influenced Punk etc. doesn't mean they didn't influence Prog as well. Cale, Bowie, Eno, Roxy, Talking Heads, any number of Kraut bands... The OP couldn't find any VU threads. If the OP wants to search using 'Any date' and 'and older' in Find Posts, and Display Results as 'Topics' there are around twenty or so VU threads with about ten in Suggest New Bands. Despite all that I don't think VU has ever been officially evaluated by the Admin Team, so we don't know if they are Proto or not. From the PA definition of Proto: '... developed one or more elements of Prog... an important stage in the evolution of Progressive Rock.' At least one or two boxes ticked? I'd like to see more of an argument from the OP for the band's inclusion, citing the best musical examples. I think you will also need the support of a Special Collab to put this to Admin. The only Admin I know who regularly posts in VU threads is a fan, but does not (if I remember correctly) think they belong on PA. So you may be minus one vote before you begin. You will therefore need to make a very good case for VU to be considered. I have considered proposing VU in the past but am undecided myself. I would like to see more members' opinions and, in particular, more support from other Collabs first. But since they've been suggested so many times maybe it's time to nail this once and for all. And how cool would it be to see that big yellow phallus or the Airfix toy soldiers on the PA frontpage?
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Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 12 2012 at 16:16
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17 minute experimental jam session. Jam session in one ear, short story recited by Cale in the other. I just don't think stuff like this is new wave at all, they did not jam as much as the Velvets and certainly did not display a wide range of styles. They go from stuff like this to little ditties such as this: Oh, and this too: This band is putting lyrical complexity as well and musical and sonic complexity into that song. ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 00:09
The fact that VU have been proto for many things other than prog doesn't mean that they shouldn't fit. Of course their inheritance is gone mainly to Patti Smith or Devo, not to Genesis, but from Devo came the Cardiacs.... it's not like Darwin's evolution the lines are dotted, not straight. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 03:11
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Devo for Proto? Yes please! Oh and Gary Numan... -------------
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 04:04
I have to confess that I've never listened to Gary Numan. However we may add new categories like proto-avant (for Devo), post-proto (for Patti Smith) and proto-zeuhl (for Carl Orff). Jokes apart, VU don't fit in the current definition for proto-prog, but I wouldn't be too concerned in case they are added in some way. I see many similarities between Devo and Cardiacs and I have also written it in a review, but I don't mean that Devo are prog. I absolutely love Patti Smith and her new album is great. Not prog at all, but I prefer Patti Smith to Tori Amos. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 07:31
How does being dotted preclude a line from being straight? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -------------
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 08:20
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How about devo for Post-Proto-Prog. Prog was not dead when they made 1st. album, but it was on Life-Sustaining Drugs  And Yes began to sound more like Velvet .....no i think that was Fripp..or was it Gabriel
------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 08:53
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The Velvet Underground rift that we're playing out right now had its roots back in the 60s, with the rivalry between two underground bands on the Verve label, the Velvets and the Mothers of Invention. Both seemed to be bent on claiming discovery of this new territory of Art Music. One was very studied and virtuosic, the other was more spontaneous and simplistic. Kind of a yin/yang thing, and a lot of people tend to come out on one side or the other. My view is that both of them provided "seed crystals" out of which most Art Rock Music arose - including progressive rock, new wave, Krautrock, virtually any rock music that considers itself as an intellectual pursuit. I'm not advocating their inclusion nor their exclusion, but I'm just trying to understand why it is that the Velvet Underground (who were virtually unknown while they were active, btw) are so divisive. I had a feeling this thread would go past the first page and produce some lively debate, and it has. ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 09:08
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Looking back, my post above is a bit reductive, trying to derive all music from just two bands. We all know it's isn't that cut and dry. But it was a fun post to write anyway.
------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 09:12
Remember also that 1967 (the year of the Velvets' debut) is also the year in which Sgt. Pepper was released, and the year before included both the Mothers' debut and Pet Sounds. Both of those records had a huge influence on the productions techniques that would come to define prog and I would argue overshadowed Zappa and Reed's contributions (at least at the time.) -------------
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 09:51
Bravo! ------------- |
Posted By: HolyMoly
Date Posted: July 13 2012 at 10:02
True, and that argument is made stronger by the fact that the Beatles and Beach Boys were infinitely more popular (and therefore had a greater chance to "influence") than VU and the Mothers put together, in addition to being just as innovative, if not more so. I guess I'm thinking of the more avant-tendencies of Art Music, the conscious merging of rock music with Art (with a Capital "A"), with less commercial consideration involved. *(though I do maintain that everyone wants to be popular, whether it be on their own terms or not). ------------- My other avatar is a Porsche It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: July 14 2012 at 14:12
I daresay the Velvet Underground can be credited with the invention of Art Rock indeed. -------------
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: July 14 2012 at 17:41
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The VU have been discussed many times before: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80387&KW=velvet+underground&PID=4251955#4251955" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=80387&KW=velvet+underground&PID=4251955#4251955 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54642&KW=velvet+underground&PID=3104242#3104242" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=54642&KW=velvet+underground&PID=3104242#3104242 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52015&KW=velvet+underground" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=52015&KW=velvet+underground http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48287&KW=velvet+underground" rel="nofollow - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48287&KW=velvet+underground (the list goes on) I love the Velvets (together with Patti Smith, Television, Devo et al) but just don't think there is a place for them on PA. Arty/Bohemian rock does NOT prog make alas. As far as influence goes, the VU's indelible signature can be traced in practically every garage band that formed > 1970 and what has been called 'post-punk' is, to all intents and purposes, a phenomenon entirely of their own (unwitting) creation. The only trace of Reed & Co that I can hear in anything currently listed on PA, is certain types of Krautrock but even then, for me the influence is restricted to 'Rock leaves Psyche' and textual elements (literary sources of subject matter etc) Lou Reed once remarked that if a fan couldn't play one of his songs on a guitar after two listens, he considered he had failed in his task. That is a sentiment that smacks of a Punk/minimalist mindset. Lengthy improvisations, avant-garde flourishes, cluster chords and track length (Sister Ray) cannot equate in such a context to be Prog elements and I cannot hear any VU in Prog whatsoever ------------- 
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: July 16 2012 at 15:25
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VU's influence isn't restricted to Krautrock here at PA: Chris Jones @BBC on Velvets & Nico album - 'Without this slice of plastic there would have been no glam rock, no krautrock and no punk.' Eno @Mojo - 'I was pretty keen on Can... I felt they had picked up the gauntlet that the Velvet Underground had thrown down.' Throbbing Gristle's P-Orridge was inspired by their primitivism, taboo lyrics, and cited them as a precursor to TG. The VU's combination of pop, avant garde improvisation, artiness and sense of style was a major influence on Roxy Music. VU were a major influence on Hawkwind. Robert Calvert said that Hawkwind's hypnotic Germanic riffs were derived from VU. @Guardian 2005 - 'Laurie Anderson is... one of few artists who have tried to carry on the darker, more experimental side of the Velvet Underground. @Factmag - A Brief history of minimalism: 'The Velvets influenced pretty much all important music post-1967.' @Culturefeast: 'Talking Heads were... were heavily influenced by the Velvet Underground. Their umbrella of influence in modern rock is overwhelming. Rock music like the Velvet Underground is timeless' |