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yam yam View Drop Down
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Points: 7049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 09:50
Taking this on a stage further, Although Travis is fairly new here (somewhere just short of the 100 post mark at the present moment, although this number increasing rapidly all the time), he has clearly demonstrated a broad knowledge of prog and considerable enthusiasm for the site in those posts, and made a number of really well put together suggestions in the New Bands and Artists forum along the way.
With Chris and Andy's blessing, I would like to propose that we offer him a role within the New Suggestions team as soon as he has made the 100 posts necessary for him to be moved up to Senior Member status. Chris could surely do with the help, since Andy has far too much on his plate with his Admin/Heavy/Math Rock roles to be able to help out there much these days, and by allowing Travis to post his suggestions directly in the team threads (as well as notifying the teams about suitable candidates posted by others that he had checked out in the New Bands forum) a large chunk of Chris's current workload would be taken off him, and Travis could also begin his crusade to mop up these old 'lost' suggestions with the freedom to roam the collab zone that I feel he would need to do this effectively.
 
Just a thought...  Wink
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Points: 4006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 09:57
I think that discussions about ''moves'' between genre teams and forum member promotions should be confined to the Collab Zone. Later.
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Points: 7049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 10:13
Ooops, sorry - overstepped the mark... Embarrassed
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Windhawk View Drop Down
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Points: 11401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 10:32
I've opened a thread in the collab zone. Move your points to that one :-)
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Points: 7049 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 11:48
Thanks Olav.
Message to admin: If any of the stuff I have posted here is considered inappropriate for the public forums then please remove it. Sorry for any offence caused to anyone...I was just trying to help. Embarrassed
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Points: 180 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 15:53
I would be quite honored to be given the privilege of working with you guys, I of course love being a part of the site at all, but it has been a goal of mine to get an official position here at some point, as well.

Hahaha, it did seem a bit odd that all this was getting posted on the rejected suggestion for some random post-rock band LOL

Here's hoping the deliberation comes out in my favor Wink


Edited by CoolJimmi - May 18 2013 at 15:58
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Windhawk View Drop Down
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Points: 11401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 16:13
Well, a couple of interesting subjects came up just here and a couple of us collabs kind of used the opportunity for what it was worth *chuckles*

Oh well, back to another unpaid obligation. 8 more tracks to take notes from on this creation...
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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CoolJimmi View Drop Down
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Points: 180 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 16:19
Hearing some interesting changing meters in that track, along with a few interesting musical changes. The songwriting is atleast a bit progressive.

Anyway, thanks a lot for chatting with me, you and yam yam both Smile Was quite nice to experience that level of feedback from the team here.

Good luck in your endeavors, Windhawk!
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Windhawk View Drop Down
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Points: 11401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 18:15
Thanks. These days I'm in the position where luck isn't as important as time admittedly *laughs*
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Points: 3167 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2013 at 18:52
Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

I think that discussions about ''moves'' between genre teams and forum member promotions should be confined to the Collab Zone. Later.



I KNOW ALL YOUR SECRETS NOW
http://pseudosentai.bandcamp.com/



wtf
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CoolJimmi View Drop Down
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Points: 180 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2013 at 14:34
Originally posted by Smurph Smurph wrote:

Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

I think that discussions about ''moves'' between genre teams and forum member promotions should be confined to the Collab Zone. Later.



I KNOW ALL YOUR SECRETS NOW

Hahaha, indeed, and hopefully they won't have to keep them all from me soon, either Wink I must continue my crusade!
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2013 at 04:50
Originally posted by CoolJimmi CoolJimmi wrote:

If three out of four agree on a four man team, that's 75%, more than pretty much any presidential election has ever won by, nevermind any other kind of election conducted in a similar 'majority rules' manner.

On a three person team, 3 votes is still a ghastly majority, with 66.666% for it. However, the requirement for the vote to be unanimous here is more understandable, but only just.

For comparison, the percent ratio of 3:2 (Yes:No) on a five man team is 60:40, LESS than the ratio of both team compositions below it. I realize it doesn't strictly come down to numbers here, but...wait, yes, it actually does, since it is a voting system based around the number of team members and the number of votes.

Further, the percent ratio on a six man team of 4:2 is 66:34, the EQUIVALENT of a non-passing vote in a 3-man team. Meanwhile, a seven man team with a vote of 4:3 is LESS than that, at 57:43, and it is allowed to pass? You may have to excuse my excessive number-crunching, but I feel it is appropriate in this circumstance.

Perhaps the remedy lies in ensuring the teams are always at a good size, such as 5 or 6? The problem seems to lie in having too few members on a team, and not scaling the voting process effectively with larger teams.

Perhaps I am being a bit nitpicky, and I realize these voting systems were likely carefully planned and well-intentioned, but a bit of the logic is lost on me.

Also, as a sidenote, is there a contingency plan in place for if a subgenre rejects a band that should have gone to another sub, but forgets to reccomend the move? I understand the teams can get incredibly busy, and this idea vexes me for some reason.
If I can interject for a moment.
 
The team system is not like an electoral role or a referendum, nor is it like a parliament or house of representatives, therefore majority voting does not follow those models.
 
The teams are representative of the whole PA membership in that they make decisions on behalf of the PA, but they are not an elected body of representatives, they are a representative sample. Therefore sampling theory is more applicable to their voting, not majority voting.
 
Small teams chosen at random are statistically not very representative, for a 45,000+ membership we would need to have to have teams of 100s of people for that, which is impractical; for small teams (less than 100) we would ideally need unanimous voting to ensure their decisions represent the whole population, and that is also impractical. In sampling theory small sample sizes have a low confidence factor.
 
So we pre-select the team membership to be representative of the genre they are chosen for (we weight the sample), this means their "yes" vote is more representative of those people who would vote "yes" if put to a whole population referendum... it is not representative of the whole population. This means that any "no" vote represents a "no" from people who would have voted "yes" in the whole population, not of those who would have voted "no". (That is difficult concept to grasp if you try and relate it to majority voting - it's not if you relate it to sampling).
 
Unfortunately no one seems to understand this concept at all, so it was quietly swept under the carpet and majority rules are generally used regardless of what the guidelines say.
 
 


Edited by Dean - May 25 2013 at 05:12
What?
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ExittheLemming View Drop Down
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2013 at 05:19
^ Yes, this is clearly an elusive concept to grasp but would repeated instances of a 'No' vote from a team member be indicative of their unsuitability as an objective arbiter for inclusion on PA? c/f unanimity of 'Yes' being inferred as consistent with the weighted representative sample? How can you be selected to be predisposed to exercise judgement?


Edited by ExittheLemming - May 25 2013 at 05:37
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2013 at 17:32
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ Yes, this is clearly an elusive concept to grasp but would repeated instances of a 'No' vote from a team member be indicative of their unsuitability as an objective arbiter for inclusion on PA? c/f unanimity of 'Yes' being inferred as consistent with the weighted representative sample? How can you be selected to be predisposed to exercise judgement?
In a perfectly chosen representative sample all team members (statistically) would vote the same as each other - that is the essence of sampling acceptance testing. Any team member who consistently votes opposite to the rest of the team clearly is unsuitable or is applying a completely different acceptance criteria to everyone else - this is also true of anyone who votes "Yes" to everything
 
If, for example, we where to go back in time and ask the Symphonic Team to consider ELP's and Kraftwerk's suitability for Symphonic Prog then every team member would vote "Yes" for ELP and "No" for Kraftwerk. There should be no doubt or indecision on this and we are not looking for a majority vote - if the team is not unanimous in these two cases then any dissenters should reconsider their role on the team.
 
Sorry, I don't understand your last sentence.
What?
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2013 at 18:52
reminds me a bit of the Electoral College in the US
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ExittheLemming View Drop Down
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2013 at 21:10
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ Yes, this is clearly an elusive concept to grasp but would repeated instances of a 'No' vote from a team member be indicative of their unsuitability as an objective arbiter for inclusion on PA? c/f unanimity of 'Yes' being inferred as consistent with the weighted representative sample? How can you be selected to be predisposed to exercise judgement?
In a perfectly chosen representative sample all team members (statistically) would vote the same as each other - that is the essence of sampling acceptance testing. Any team member who consistently votes opposite to the rest of the team clearly is unsuitable or is applying a completely different acceptance criteria to everyone else - this is also true of anyone who votes "Yes" to everything
 
If, for example, we where to go back in time and ask the Symphonic Team to consider ELP's and Kraftwerk's suitability for Symphonic Prog then every team member would vote "Yes" for ELP and "No" for Kraftwerk. There should be no doubt or indecision on this and we are not looking for a majority vote - if the team is not unanimous in these two cases then any dissenters should reconsider their role on the team.
 
Sorry, I don't understand your last sentence.


OK thanks Dean, that's certainly helped me understand the sampling concept much better. All I meant by the last sentence was this: is there a possibility that team members are chosen/nominated because their opinions and judgements are known to be practically identical to those of the existing team members? i.e. the perfect candidate is the most malleable/supine candidate who will not rock the boat or show dissent etc?

(this might not be the best thread to have this discussion in methinks)


Edited by ExittheLemming - May 25 2013 at 21:12
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65602 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2013 at 21:20
^ I don't know how things are currently, but when I was teaming the short answer is No; members were approached based on knowledge of both prog in general and special team needs.   Chemistry was also an factor, but never was there any talk of preferring someone who might vote as I or We would.   In fact that was the last thing I was interested in.
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CoolJimmi View Drop Down
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Points: 180 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2013 at 13:40
It is not a very difficult idea to understand, just one that is a bit 'out there.'

By the way, are prospective Collabs singled out by other Collabs and suggested to the teams for deliberation, can anyone just 'ask' to be a member, or what is the process behind members becoming Collabs/Team Members?
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Windhawk View Drop Down
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Points: 11401 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2013 at 14:46
Not a set rule in that department CJ.
But usually an admin or the leader of a genre team will approach any candidates (through the PM system in the forum) if they would like to join a genre team once a team needs a new member and a potential candidate have been identified. 
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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CoolJimmi View Drop Down
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Points: 180 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2013 at 20:03
So I guess I can't just waltz up in a couple months and request to be a member of the staff? Tongue

Hahaha, only joking, of course...I plan on it Cool



*distribute sarcasm as you see fit
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