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Greg W 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 24 2004
Location: Chicago
Status: Offline
Points: 3904
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 Posted: March 22 2009 at 17:25 |
 Atkingani wrote:
rileydog22 wrote:
The way I learned the Monroe Doctrine is basically that the US said "If Europe doesn't screw with the Americas then the USA won't screw with Europe". It was more about the USA saying "I'm sick and tired of colonization" than anything else, and I find it amazing that anyone could misconstrue this as "the USA gets do do whatever the hell it wants in South America." |
It was indeed a very corageous statement 'cause in 1823 the USA was far from being a superpower not even a power capable of facing Austria, Prussia, France, Russia and Spain - nations that were warned by the Doctrine. |
I agree with you. I often wondered, during that period if the European countries didn't get a good laugh at our meaningless threat. The funniest thing is, people remember Monroe most for this absolutely stupid doctrine. Monroe was a schmuck.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:35 |
People here have said valid things but there is more behind the hate that mnay in my continent feel for the US....
It has a lot to do with the poverty of the region and the wealth of the "Empire" as they call it. Since the apparition of books like "Las venas Abiertas de America Latina" by Eduardo galeano and many others of the kind, the pseudo-intellectuals of the ultra-left wing (TRUE communism, not what Republicans here deem communism) have taken control of the schools and universities (the public ones mostly) and they have spread this notion that we are poor because the US is rich and they exploited us and benefited from us. While there ARE things that are TRUE, and the US has not been a perfect partner, that is ibviously an exaggeration.
The left wing has this magic, utopian, "epic" feel in most people in south america where they idolize argentinian suicide-crazy Ernesto "Che" Guevara who is like Christ for the "free thinkers" of the region. The Cuban Revolution and Castro are GODS for the left, which dominates the superior-education classrooms.
The governments in south america have been atrocious and ultra-corrupt. 1% of the people in my country have more than 90% all the wealth of a super-rich country like mine, which in an area smaller than florida has more natural resources than most nations 10 times bigger. Those goverments run by the "oligarchy" or the "right" have failed to bring equality and wealth to our nations. Therefore the masses have decided to fall blindly in love with those who spread hate against everything related to the "oligarchy" That oligarchy has always been very connected to the US.
pobverty 1 %
US-sponsored goverments killed thousands of people in South America. Pinochet, Videla and the Junta, Stroessner, among many others. Allende (an atrocious president, i have to say) won a democratic election and was pretty much killed in power (he dcid it actually) by a US-backed coup in Chile. The dreams of the poor people have always been crushed because of the greed of the ruling ones, always linked to the US. America has a lot of dead people in their hands in central america, too.
The Moroe Doctrine is repulsive. even if it was just intended as some kind of "watchdog" or "policeman" of the americans... let every nation decide for itself what the f**k they want....
And today we have the consequences: more than 6 very-HARD-LEFT-wing governments in South America. And the number is growing with every election.
Congratulations USA, my beloved adoptive country... your rulers have made you lose all influence in the rest of your continent....
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:41 |
well said Teo... 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:46 |
The T wrote:
People here have said valid things but there is more behind the hate that mnay in my continent feel for the US....
It has a lot to do with the poverty of the region and the wealth of the "Empire" as they call it. Since the apparition of books like "Las venas Abiertas de America Latina" by Eduardo galeano and many others of the kind, the pseudo-intellectuals of the ultra-left wing (TRUE communism, not what Republicans here deem communism) have taken control of the schools and universities (the public ones mostly) and they have spread this notion that we are poor because the US is rich and they exploited us and benefited from us. While there ARE things that are TRUE, and the US has not been a perfect partner, that is ibviously an exaggeration.
The left wing has this magic, utopian, "epic" feel in most people in south america where they idolize argentinian suicide-crazy Ernesto "Che" Guevara who is like Christ for the "free thinkers" of the region. The Cuban Revolution and Castro are GODS for the left, which dominates the superior-education classrooms.
The governments in south america have been atrocious and ultra-corrupt. 1% of the people in my country have more than 90% all the wealth of a super-rich country like mine, which in an area smaller than florida has more natural resources than most nations 10 times bigger. Those goverments run by the "oligarchy" or the "right" have failed to bring equality and wealth to our nations. Therefore the masses have decided to fall blindly in love with those who spread hate against everything related to the "oligarchy" That oligarchy has always been very connected to the US.
pobverty 1 %
US-sponsored goverments killed thousands of people in South America. Pinochet, Videla and the Junta, Stroessner, among many others. Allende (an atrocious president, i have to say) won a democratic election and was pretty much killed in power (he dcid it actually) by a US-backed coup in Chile. The dreams of the poor people have always been crushed because of the greed of the ruling ones, always linked to the US. America has a lot of dead people in their hands in central america, too.
The Moroe Doctrine is repulsive. even if it was just intended as some kind of "watchdog" or "policeman" of the americans... let every nation decide for itself what the f**k they want....
And today we have the consequences: more than 6 very-HARD-LEFT-wing governments in South America. And the number is growing with every election.
Congratulations USA, my beloved adoptive country... your rulers have made you lose all influence in the rest of your continent.... |
I agree with all you say T except that in the argentinian case , the "left wing" ideology is just a facade. However , our dear president wastes her time getting linked with the likes of Chavez and Correa. Besides I wouldn't call any of this governments extreme left wing . well maybe Bolivia. But all the others , they are just pretending.
In comparaison , I have always admired the brazilian partnership with the US , this is almost like a state policy for them. Getting the US as an enemy won't do you no good.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: March 22 2009 at 21:05 |
^Yes... getting the US as an enemy is actually STUPID....
What do we prefer then? China as the leader of the world with their love for freedom? I was really baffled and wanting to go jump out of a window when women were defending the Taliban in South America just because it was anti-USA.... what would they prefer? A Muslim world?
I agree that the left-wing goverments are very light in some areas.... but in others, like their anti-USA stances, they're very HARD left...
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 07:09 |
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Actually, Teo, you'd be surprised to know that in Europe it is not the far right-wing groups and parties who are the most anti-USA. The reasons are partly similar to those of the far leftists, partly based instead on the notion of the USA as ruled by a 'Jewish conspiracy'. Once (and totally by mistake) I received one of those publications in the mail, and the above ideas were clearly stated in more than one article.
As to women defending the Taliban, this is what happens when you accept the notion that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. If my memory serves me right, the US supported the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia because it opposed Vietnam and China.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 08:54 |
Greg W wrote:
Atkingani wrote:
rileydog22 wrote:
The way I learned the Monroe Doctrine is basically that the US said "If Europe doesn't screw with the Americas then the USA won't screw with Europe". It was more about the USA saying "I'm sick and tired of colonization" than anything else, and I find it amazing that anyone could misconstrue this as "the USA gets do do whatever the hell it wants in South America." |
It was indeed a very corageous statement 'cause in 1823 the USA was far from being a superpower not even a power capable of facing Austria, Prussia, France, Russia and Spain - nations that were warned by the Doctrine. |
I agree with you. I often wondered, during that period if the European countries didn't get a good laugh at our meaningless threat. The funniest thing is, people remember Monroe most for this absolutely stupid doctrine. Monroe was a schmuck. |
I don't think that Monroe was such a fool - he knew exactly what he was doing, which was essentially siding with the British (anything that opposed further Spanish expansion was guaranteed to get British support) and relying on our Navy to enforce the doctrine.
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What?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 08:56 |
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My country has done many things it shouldn't be proud of. What I find most offensive of are the defenders of those acts.
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 23 2009 at 18:28
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17257
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 09:24 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
My country has done many things it shouldn't be proud of. What I find most offensive of are the defenders of those acts.
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You're right Brian that we have made *many* mistakes over the years and I am no defender of those things. But what I find most offensive is those who won't acknowledge our good side, who paint us as strictly evil. If one of our allies out there faced a true assault from another country or super-natural disaster, who would they call for assistance? And could they count on us? Yes, they could. Hell, not even our allies. We would help enemies in the face of tragic natural disaster. I'm not saying we are perfect, I acknowledge we've done bad things. But I will go down swinging against the notion that this is an net-evil nation, or anything close to it. This is a net-good nation.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 09:49 |
Dean wrote:
Greg W wrote:
Atkingani wrote:
rileydog22 wrote:
The way I learned the Monroe Doctrine is basically that the US said "If Europe doesn't screw with the Americas then the USA won't screw with Europe". It was more about the USA saying "I'm sick and tired of colonization" than anything else, and I find it amazing that anyone could misconstrue this as "the USA gets do do whatever the hell it wants in South America." |
It was indeed a very corageous statement 'cause in 1823 the USA was far from being a superpower not even a power capable of facing Austria, Prussia, France, Russia and Spain - nations that were warned by the Doctrine. |
I agree with you. I often wondered, during that period if the European countries didn't get a good laugh at our meaningless threat. The funniest thing is, people remember Monroe most for this absolutely stupid doctrine. Monroe was a schmuck. |
I don't think that Monroe was such a fool - he knew exactly what he was doing, which was essentially siding with the British (anything that opposed further Spanish expansion was guaranteed to get British support) and relying on our Navy to enforce the doctrine. |
Plus I think you could rely on the assistance of a European power, if not multiple of them, if another one decided to attack. The thought of one European nation invading and taking control of the nascent American state would probably be anathema to the other nations - they simply wouldn't allow one of their own to have that much power.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 18:28 |
Let's all leave and let the Indians have it back.  
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 23 2009 at 18:28
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17257
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 18:41 |
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 18:53 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Alberto Muņoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 19:01 |
InvisibleUnicorns wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
suntzuwu is an idiot who can be safely ignored. |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 19:09 |
Alberto Muņoz wrote:
InvisibleUnicorns wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
god I love quote pyramids hahahha |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Alberto Muņoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: March 23 2009 at 19:11 |
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