"Americas for the Americans"
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Topic: "Americas for the Americans"
Posted By: Atkingani
Subject: "Americas for the Americans"
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:29
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Seldom I start a thread but there's something I need to know... Well, I was in another forum (political) and for some reason the thread was about Chavez, the president of Venezuela and one guy (I believe he's American) said more or less that according to the Monroe Doctrine, the USA has rights over all countries in the Americas... he also added sarcastically that we all fled school leaving the perception that he learnt that way, I mean, "Americas for the Americans, from the USA".
 I know the doctrine but I learnt differently 'cause actually the mentioned "Americans" meant people from all the continent, each one in his/her country.
Then, I'd like to know: How this issue is taught in the USA schools? Do Americans, from the USA, believe that all the continent from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego belong to them???
This topic is aimed mainly to US people here but everyone is invited to participate. Thanks!  ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:37
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not that it 'belongs' to us.... and others may think differently.... but that it is ours to 'watch over'... that the Monroe Doctrine spelled out that the Americas were our sphere of influence and if..say... we didn't like the ways things when... we reserved the right to step in... overtly or covertly and alter them. that is what I remember being taught... with the hindsight of seeing just how the Monroe Doctrine has been applied. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:39
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This issue isn't taught in American schools... ...not much is.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:41
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Guigo my friend, we were certainly NEVER taught anything of the sort in my education, and I know of no one who would have been taught that. While guys like him do not help our cause any, it saddens me to see how America is pissed on across the world. We've made great mistakes that I acknowledge, but we also give a fortune in foreign aid and have helped protect allies over the decades at great expense, and we have a good hearted people for the most part....yet those things are conveniently forgotten. Its so easy to demonize America, as if all of the other countries are bastions of perfection and we are the anti-christ. Well, the people I know in my life are not deserving of the image we have in this world. Guigo, don't misunderstand, this is NOT directed at you.....I'm just using your thread to piggyback a related feeling. You can remove it if you wish. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:50
| Jim, you know I chose freely to come here, but if you could step in my shoes for a while, and realise how a person like me is treated just because she wasn't born here, you would probably understand why the US are not popular (and that's just a small part). If something went wrong before two years of marriage, I would be kicked out of the country without mercy, even if I have next to nothing to go back to. And I will spare you other details, which are of no interest to people here.... We, the prospective immigrants, are considered to be guilty by default, and have to jump through hoops to be proven innocent. I can tell you that my friends and family in Italy were appalled whenever I told them of the things I had to go through just in order to live with the man I love. Do you really think they were so wrong? |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:53
Not misunderstood, my friend...  and there's no need for removal - let it be!  ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Finnforest wrote:Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:59
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A small correction, it wasn't in a political forum but in the YouTube... here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6l0zhgW-3c&feature=email - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6l0zhgW-3c&feature=email
I confess I was a bit harsh in my first reply but the second guy went overboard. The part in the post exchanging that left me astonished is:
http://www.youtube.com/user/es21212 - es21212 (3 meses atrás)
Let's show some fire power to Hugo Chavez the Venezuelan dictator!! haha go USA, give him hell!!
http://www.youtube.com/user/Atkingani - Atkingani (2 meses atrás) Not that I agree with Chavez but what he or the Venezolans did to you or other American people, except some hard words? Isn't it allowed to disagree with the "Empire"? And if he is a "dictator" for being elected due to vicious elections then your hero George W. Bush is a "dictator" too. http://www.youtube.com/user/Kalydosos - Kalydosos (2 meses atrás)
Agreed! http://www.youtube.com/user/suntzuwu - suntzuwu (1 semana atrás) No. He isn't allowed to disagree. It's called the Monroe Doctrine. Look it up since you weren't paying attention in school ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 08:17
| suntzuwu is an idiot who can be safely ignored. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 08:18
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First off, this suntzuwu sounds like a major ... Anywho, he is also incorrect as to what the Monroe Doctrine means. The Monroe Doctrine simply stated that the US would meet with agression any further attempts by European countries to colonize or influence the Americas. It wasn't meant to be a doctrine that what the US says goes, but rather a statement that the US would protect the Americas from European "agression". ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 08:22
Yes, we Europeans are very aggressive indeed ...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 08:23
exactly.. that is what the history books say... what they may not teach.... which in time...as the threat of European aggression disappeared... has morphed into the 'my backyard' premise in which this country would intervene (which any historian will note the truth of...to this day) when this country thought it's best interests were at stake. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 08:33
European countries, no?
In fact, the Monroe Doctrine was issued in 1823, some months after the Holly Alliance Treaty (issued Nov, 1822) where some European kingdoms left the possibility to re-colonize the Americas. ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 08:46
Raff, my post was not about your immigration experience, but about this country being an easy punching bag for so many, in the media and elsewhere, in general. You know my post was not directed at you so I'm confused why you put your comment the way you did, and why you would put that question to me at the end.  As with some previous comments about Italy Raff, please do not take my forum comments as personal commentary on you. Especially when you know darn well how I feel about you. 
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: TheCaptain
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 08:50
That's what I was tought in public school. Also, for the preservation of your sanity Guigo, I suggest you never read youtube comments. ------------- Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 08:54
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cool.... maybe the education system here isn't as bad as everyone says it is hahhaha
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 09:04
Jim, I thought the reason for my comments was clear enough... You wondered why Americans are hated around the world, and I thought the way would-be immigrants are treated (even if they are nice people like me) is an example of why other countries resent the US. Perhaps the connection was not apparent - my bad. |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 09:36
Fact is , the US are hated all around the world (Except Israel
 ) because of their leaders. They feel like the world belongs to them having military bases all around earth , also because sometimes they don't give a f*ck about the UN recomendations and do things their own way.Now as regards the Americans , the only thing I really feel sorry about is that they are not taught about different cultures. Let's face it most americans knowledge is based on stereotypes which may sound offensive.
Ex: Latin America 's population is composed of:
Drug dealers
Guerrillas
Soccer players
Thieves
Maids
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Posted By: InvisibleUnicorns
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 10:52
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Posted By: rileydog22
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 11:07
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The way I learned the Monroe Doctrine is basically that the US said "If Europe doesn't screw with the Americas then the USA won't screw with Europe". It was more about the USA saying "I'm sick and tired of colonization" than anything else, and I find it amazing that anyone could misconstrue this as "the USA gets do do whatever the hell it wants in South America."
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Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 11:25
 Yep, my fault... I should never have commented there so I would never receive a reply in my e-mail inbox.  ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 11:32
It was indeed a very corageous statement 'cause in 1823 the USA was far from being a superpower not even a power capable of facing Austria, Prussia, France, Russia and Spain - nations that were warned by the Doctrine. ------------- Guigo ~~~~~~ |
Posted By: ClemofNazareth
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 12:01
It seems to me at least one Argentinean's knowledge of "Americans" (U.S. variety) may be based on stereotypes. Not all of us are racist hicks with eight-grade educations and bumper-sticker views of the world. Some of us are quite educated, are truly interested in what's going on all over our globe, and invest our time, money and energy to try and be responsible citizens of that world. Every culture has its inbred cousins; don't let obnoxious American tourists and simpleton elected officials lead you to believe we are an entire nation of fools. And Guigo, as for the Monroe Doctrine it has been many years since I was in primary school learning these things, but as I recall we were taught (and a few people have already stated) that this Doctrine simply asserted we would be stewards of this hemisphere and would not tolerate attempts by European powers to attempt to futher colonize it. I was never taught the U.S. had some sort of 'right' to dictate or control what goes on in the rest of this hemisphere. I still firmly believe our primary responsibility is to act as caretakers over what we've been given and offer the hope of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" to anyone else who wants those things. We have unfortunately, as Micky says, made a lot of mistakes over the years, mostly when we have lost site of our real purpose and our fundamental values. ------------- "Peace is the only battle worth waging." Albert Camus |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 12:28
Right Bob, it gets old being lectured by tin-pot dictators and activists about how "oppressive" America is, when we enjoy such freedoms and *in general* try to help others where possible. While around the globe women have acid thrown in their faces, or girls are sexually mutilated, or men killed openly for belonging to the wrong tribe, or poor people routinely thrown off their land in China....often because of backwards social, political, and religious nonsense. Let's tackle some of that before we listen to another UN spokesperson or academic sage lecture us how evil we are here. Again, the disconnect between our image in person and our perception abroad is stark, I hope Obama can repair some of the damage Iraq has done. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 13:22
Maybe I took the question at the end wrong, but the words "really" and "so" made it feel like you were halfway answering it for me....when you know I wouldn't think them wrong for being appalled. In fact you know I was appalled at how you were treated which I guess is why the question bothered me. As a reason for the universal hatred, I think it goes far beyond a flawed immigration policy, though as you say, its a legit example of one reason. And while many of the examples cited will be true and we need to do better, the overall net spirit of the US is for good in the world, and those who want to deny that do not understand the American people. As far as governments go, for those who wish to see America fall to a new world superpower, be careful what you wish for. In 100 years they may look back and realize America was not so godawful. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: markosherrera
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 13:25
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Monroe doctrine said America for Americans but inthe 80s United Kingdom made a war against Argentina ,and USA WAS AN IMPORTANT help for the british army
------------- Hi progmaniacs of all the world |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 13:32
*sigh* Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands, which were a British 'colony'. A British fleet went to reclaim them. The sum of USA help was basically providing some sort of mobile airstrip and intelligence, as I remember it, because a) America felt it was not in their interests to directly oppose the Argentinian Junta, who were a limited 'pro-American' regime in South America, and b) because Thatcher probably wouldn't have accepted any more help anyway. And, just noting it, the Falkland Islands aren't actually part of America proper. And, just as a small rant, the Monroe Doctrine really shouldn't have any significance today, like some other historic precedents with which particular American political theories are supported. |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 13:47
But , the way I see it. Falklands/Malvinas were from Spain in the XVIII century. So when we got rid of the spaniards It was quite logical that they belonged to us.
The only thing I regret about those islands are
A- The quantity of soldiers that died from both sides
B-Huge ammount of oil on that place , that would be a very valuable resource for our economy.
At least , the defeat at Malvinas made it easier for the return of democracy here. Othewise , we would have had a military dictatorship for some more years like Chile.
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Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 15:00
Regardless, they'd been a British possession for 150 or so years by '82, and were inhabited by, for the most part, British citizens, who wished to remain a British possession. In the 1980s, Argentina didn't really have any more claim to it than England now has to, say, Normandy. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 16:06
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Interesting topic Guigo. I had a simialr thought recently when I saw a topic with the heading "Warning: We are becoming a nation of 'narcissists' It wasn't the sentiment in the title which caught my eye, but the aasumption that we should all know which "nation" was meant, and accept that as some sort of default.
That said, I have a great liking for the people of the US, I find them to be among the friendliest in the world. They seem to have a genuine disinterest in anything outside the US. I don't perceive it as vindictive in anyway though. If I had a pound for every time they refer to "England" when they mean the United Kingdom for example, I'd be richer than Bill Gates by now.
Such interest is not unique to the US of course, we all do the same to a greater or lesser extent. Parts of the UK for example are very insular.
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 16:14
Bob, I have no pride, so I'll ask the dumb American question What is the distinction between the England, Britain, and UK terms. I confess to thinking they were more or less interchangeable. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 16:29
The United Kingdom is conformed by:England , Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland. I guess that's the main difference.
What I do not know is why in the Davis Cup for example those countries are put all together under the Great Britain label. Isn't that an excuse to get Andy Murray in the English team?? Why in the Six Nations does each have their own team instead?
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 16:30
Finnforest, you and me both. As an aside, whatever I knew about the Monroe Doctrine was forgotten as soon as the final test for that particular history class was over. Yes, they did teach it back in the '60s.
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 16:30
Well that was my guess, so I'm only a partial idiot. 
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 16:33
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Lots of people in Italy tend to use "England" to refer to Great Britain or the UK. Anyway (and I hope my British friend will forgive my presumption), this is how things are: - England is one of three regions in the island called Great Britain - the others are Wales (to the west) and Scotland (to the north); - Britain is the three regions taken together (plus various smaller islands); - the UK is Great Britain, Northern Ireland and various other territories overseas. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 16:41
Hey, who says you can't learn something useful on a Prog site
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 18:03
Um pretty much the way Russia reacted to western influence in Poland and Georgia don't ya think? This isn't strictly an American thing. Big dogs like to and usually are able to protect their back yard.
------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 21:33
Pat wins the thread. ------------- 
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: March 22 2009 at 11:05
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Spot on Raf. I do appreciate it can be confusing for those outside the UK. Great Britain is the Island made up of England, Scotland and Wales. The full title of the United Kingdom is actually the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
Many English people also confuse "England" with the United Kingdom. There is for example no "Queen of England", and has not been since the Union of the crowns 300 years ago. Queen Elizabeth should actually be Queen Elizabeth the First, as there was an agreement then to restart the numbering of the kings and queens for the UK.
This in turn led to some confusion over the name of the QE2 liner, which was built in Scotland. When launching it, the Queen named it Queen Elizabeth the second, which was somewhat politically insensitive. It was quickly decided that it would be known as "Queen Elizabeth Two", which has been its official name ever since.
I can appreciate that poeple do not refer to the UK as "England" as a deliberate snub to the Welsh, Scots, and Northern Irish, but it is the equivalent of calling Canadians "American", Italians "Spanish", or New Zealanders "Ossies".
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: March 22 2009 at 12:09
Yet it doesn't surprise me that the Monroe Doctrine got twisted to mean that. Especially considering there have been times in the history of this country where we (read as "our leaders") slide our Constitution into a desk, pretend it doesn't exist, and then pull it back out and dust it off after said crisis is averted. Take that for what you will though.  ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 22 2009 at 12:36
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^ for being too coloured by the last 8 years... nothing twisted, sinister, or illegal per se..... just an evolution of the doctrine which became foreign policy.. regardless of ideology or the President.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Greg W
Date Posted: March 22 2009 at 17:25
I agree with you. I often wondered, during that period if the European countries didn't get a good laugh at our meaningless threat. The funniest thing is, people remember Monroe most for this absolutely stupid doctrine. Monroe was a schmuck.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:35
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People here have said valid things but there is more behind the hate that mnay in my continent feel for the US....
It has a lot to do with the poverty of the region and the wealth of the "Empire" as they call it. Since the apparition of books like "Las venas Abiertas de America Latina" by Eduardo galeano and many others of the kind, the pseudo-intellectuals of the ultra-left wing (TRUE communism, not what Republicans here deem communism) have taken control of the schools and universities (the public ones mostly) and they have spread this notion that we are poor because the US is rich and they exploited us and benefited from us. While there ARE things that are TRUE, and the US has not been a perfect partner, that is ibviously an exaggeration.
The left wing has this magic, utopian, "epic" feel in most people in south america where they idolize argentinian suicide-crazy Ernesto "Che" Guevara who is like Christ for the "free thinkers" of the region. The Cuban Revolution and Castro are GODS for the left, which dominates the superior-education classrooms.
The governments in south america have been atrocious and ultra-corrupt. 1% of the people in my country have more than 90% all the wealth of a super-rich country like mine, which in an area smaller than florida has more natural resources than most nations 10 times bigger. Those goverments run by the "oligarchy" or the "right" have failed to bring equality and wealth to our nations. Therefore the masses have decided to fall blindly in love with those who spread hate against everything related to the "oligarchy" That oligarchy has always been very connected to the US.
pobverty 1 %
US-sponsored goverments killed thousands of people in South America. Pinochet, Videla and the Junta, Stroessner, among many others. Allende (an atrocious president, i have to say) won a democratic election and was pretty much killed in power (he dcid it actually) by a US-backed coup in Chile. The dreams of the poor people have always been crushed because of the greed of the ruling ones, always linked to the US. America has a lot of dead people in their hands in central america, too.
The Moroe Doctrine is repulsive. even if it was just intended as some kind of "watchdog" or "policeman" of the americans... let every nation decide for itself what the f**k they want....
And today we have the consequences: more than 6 very-HARD-LEFT-wing governments in South America. And the number is growing with every election.
Congratulations USA, my beloved adoptive country... your rulers have made you lose all influence in the rest of your continent.... ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:41
well said Teo... 
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 22 2009 at 20:46
I agree with all you say T except that in the argentinian case , the "left wing" ideology is just a facade. However , our dear president wastes her time getting linked with the likes of Chavez and Correa. Besides I wouldn't call any of this governments extreme left wing . well maybe Bolivia. But all the others , they are just pretending.
In comparaison , I have always admired the brazilian partnership with the US , this is almost like a state policy for them. Getting the US as an enemy won't do you no good.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 22 2009 at 21:05
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^Yes... getting the US as an enemy is actually STUPID....
What do we prefer then? China as the leader of the world with their love for freedom? I was really baffled and wanting to go jump out of a window when women were defending the Taliban in South America just because it was anti-USA.... what would they prefer? A Muslim world?
I agree that the left-wing goverments are very light in some areas.... but in others, like their anti-USA stances, they're very HARD left... -------------
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 07:09
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Actually, Teo, you'd be surprised to know that in Europe it is not the far right-wing groups and parties who are the most anti-USA. The reasons are partly similar to those of the far leftists, partly based instead on the notion of the USA as ruled by a 'Jewish conspiracy'. Once (and totally by mistake) I received one of those publications in the mail, and the above ideas were clearly stated in more than one article. As to women defending the Taliban, this is what happens when you accept the notion that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. If my memory serves me right, the US supported the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia because it opposed Vietnam and China. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 08:54
------------- What? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 08:56
| My country has done many things it shouldn't be proud of. What I find most offensive of are the defenders of those acts. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 09:24
You're right Brian that we have made *many* mistakes over the years and I am no defender of those things. But what I find most offensive is those who won't acknowledge our good side, who paint us as strictly evil. If one of our allies out there faced a true assault from another country or super-natural disaster, who would they call for assistance? And could they count on us? Yes, they could. Hell, not even our allies. We would help enemies in the face of tragic natural disaster. I'm not saying we are perfect, I acknowledge we've done bad things. But I will go down swinging against the notion that this is an net-evil nation, or anything close to it. This is a net-good nation. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 09:49
Plus I think you could rely on the assistance of a European power, if not multiple of them, if another one decided to attack. The thought of one European nation invading and taking control of the nascent American state would probably be anathema to the other nations - they simply wouldn't allow one of their own to have that much power. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 18:28
Let's all leave and let the Indians have it back.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 18:41
You won't get an argument from me there, I love that shirt. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 18:53
hahahha.... love it ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 19:01
-------------  |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 19:09
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: March 23 2009 at 19:11
Me too ------------- |